Heaviness in my heart

agapecarrie · October 2010

I was perusing another section, and I wish I hadn't. I had a visceral reaction to what I read.

A person was sharing that they had successful created 17 embryos. and everyone congratulated them. THey are going to wait to see which ones survive, and then implant the best, and freeze the rest, the ones that survive.

Not one person (as far as I read) even thought about these pour souls.... the destruction, the life.

not to mention that every child has a right to be conceived by the marital embrace.

I'm so sad. Time to pray.

mica178 · October 2010

I've been trying to come up with a good response to your post, but I can't. Those poor women. Imagine being so consumed by the desire to procreate that you forget about the sanctity of life. What sad hypocrisy. I pray that they find the truth.

[Deleted User] · October 2010

That is extremely sad.

lisa89760 · October 2010

I have a hard time with this because I have never tried to have kids and not been able to (obviously I'm not married yet). I could only imagine how hard it might be to want to have kids and not be able to. And while I know what the Catholic church teaches, I couldn't imagine how diffiuclt it would be to accept the fact that I would not be able to have my own child.

I know adoption is a wonderful option but some women really want to have their own children. I guess I will have a better opinion if I ever, God forbid, am in that same situation.

bel138 · October 2010

Seventeen? Is that typical?

And lisa, while I know it can seem unfair for women (and men) who are unable to have children, I really believe it is for a reason. I truly believe it is because God is calling you to take care of children in a different manner, such as adoption. Sadly, these children who are created through artificial means have much higher disease and genetic defect rates.

TerriandJoe · October 2010

That is extremely sad. Also think of all the couples that would be willing to adopt those children.

And 17 is crazy!

newlyseliski · October 2010

I also wonder why adoption seems like it is never considered in these situations... I know the waiting period is usually about 1 1/2 years and definitely not an immediate gratification process... which is probably why people don't want to go through the hassle nowadays that go by the "do whatever makes you happy" mantra. So sad... The couple are definitely in my prayers!!

I have two good friends who did things the right way and were very open to life, but they've been unable to conceive despite working with a Creighton specialist and even getting endometriosis repaired by a pretty substantial surgery... they enrolled in the adoption process a little over a year ago and got to hold their new baby boy last weekend! They could barely contain their joy and the fact that it was not their own child biologically clearly made no difference in how much they love him! Now my friends and I need to throw a baby shower together very quickly

[Deleted User] · October 2010

Jesus, Mary and Joseph pray for us.
Let God's Mercy save us all.
I am very sad for that woman and I pray that the light of the Holy Spirit leads her to understand God's desires for her and the souls influenced by her.

M

[Deleted User] · October 2010

I think this is a very difficult thing to respond to without having ever been through it. I personally do not disagree with IVF because some couples aside from raising their own children also want to carry their own children and that is a very personal choice. God has blessed us with some very talented doctors that make this possible.

However, 17 embryos is a very large number and that is what disturbs me most. There is no reason to have that many. This makes it known that there are going to be lives that never see the light of day. Very, very sad.

I do agree that adoption should also be considered. I can only pray that if this woman has success, the remaining embryos go to a woman who has trouble ovulating or had had ovaries removed but can still carry children, because that would truly be a blessing.

We all believe that God works in mysterious ways. Sometimes we have to put aside Church teachings and go with what we believe. He always has bigger plans that what we know.

agapecarrie · October 2010

To tear babies from sex like this is a disgusting diabolical travesty that KILLS and causes spiritual damage.

This isn't about "putting aside church teaching" . There is a REASON the church teaches what she does. It is because it is Christ's teachings. The church didn't just arbitrarily make it up for no reason.

THe making of babies belongs to the marital embrace. God gave us the power to co-create with Him new souls that forever effect human history. Because of original sin, unfortunately, all of us are less than perfect, spiritually, emotionally and physically, but this does NOT give us the right to tear things apart. EVERY child has a right to be conceived in the marital embrace. To think anything less is to degrade the marriage act to less than what it is about, which is a foretaste of heaven, the begets another being. (like the trinity).

It is NOT a personal choice because it effects the whole of human existence, and kills. Oh Lord, those 16 souls that will have no name! Lord have mercy!

[Deleted User] · October 2010

Agapecarrie, I really hope you never have to go through this. It is a terrible, miserable, and sad experience to go through.

On the reverse, has anyone in your Church ever concieved via IVF or other medical help? I hate to say it, but you may feel differently when infertillity directly affects someone you know or love. All children are blessings no matter how they are concieved, please don't ever forget that.

Very important though- Couples and medical professionals need to be very careful in how they approach the situation. 17 embryos is terribly sad. Three embryos that are all implanted, are a much more responsible approach.

(please know this is not any kind of personal thing, I am very happy to have the discussion and see other points of view)

agapecarrie · October 2010

I do know many people effected by infertility. I know of a woman who conceived that way, and had a conversion afterward. I NEVER EVER EVER said that the children weren't a blessing. She loves her daughter, but seriosly regrets the offense against God. when the clinic called and offered her 5000 for her eggs, .... well, its disgusting. It is absolutely diabolical and sick. The ends DO NOT justify the means.

An elderly grandma is ill, yet we wait for her life to end naturally, we don't kill her ourselves. The end is the same, grandma is passed away, but the means are completely different--- and have a huge impact morally. The same goes in this case.

I know many people effected by infertility that go on to work to try to convieve the moral way, some do, some adopt. (I am adopted). If I were effected by infertility (Whcih is a possibility as I have PCOS and low progesterone) I would NEVER take the creating of life in my own hands. I will not take over and try to be God. (Which is what this is doing-- just like Adam and eve...wanted to be equal to God).

Just becasue science has figured out a way to do it, does not mean it should be done.

Please read Theology of the body.

[Deleted User] · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:6a9e6564-8664-4640-8625-da96f7523fdf">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]I do know many people effected by infertility. I know of a woman who conceived that way, and had a conversion afterward. I NEVER EVER EVER said that the children weren't a blessing. She loves her daughter, but seriosly regrets the offense against God. when the clinic called and offered her 5000 for her eggs, .... well, its disgusting. It is absolutely diabolical and sick. The ends DO NOT justify the means. An elderly grandma is ill, yet we wait for her life to end naturally, we don't kill her ourselves. The end is the same, grandma is passed away, but the means are completely different--- and have a huge impact morally. The same goes in this case. I know many people effected by infertility that go on to work to try to convieve the moral way, some do, some adopt. (I am adopted). If I were effected by infertility (Whcih is a possibility as I have PCOS and low progesterone) I would NEVER take the creating of life in my own hands. I will not take over and try to be God. (Which is what this is doing-- just like Adam and eve...wanted to be equal to God). Just becasue science has figured out a way to do it, does not mean it should be done. Please read Theology of the body.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

That I do not agree with at all. For the particular case we have been discussing, I would hope that the remaining embryos were donated absolutely never sold.

I will take your advice and read the book you recommended. I find the conflict between Catholicism and science to be very, very fascinating.

[Deleted User] · October 2010

Also, I absolutely love the idea of adoption. I think it is a beautiful thing that has made so many families who they are. I belong to a sorority and when we were going through a year where we were meeting new girls who might like to join, one girl told us she was adopted and I told her that was cool. I thought it was so interesting how she came to be who she is. Much later, I found out that what I said was her reason for choosing our sorority. I really meant it too. It is an amzing gift that couples adopt a child and bring them into their families and love them.

Unfortunately I do know people who feel that the child was never theirs unless they gave birth to the child. I don't know 100% how I would feel, only because I haven't been there myself.

Honestly, I could see adoption as my choice over going through so many medical procedures.

agapecarrie · October 2010

There is no conflict between religion and science. Remember, GOD designed the earth and how it works.Then Christ instituted the church to save souls. People are the ones who misuse and abuse it the earth and other people. Which is what IVF is...it is human abuse.

Start with Theology of the body for beginners and good news about sex and marriage both by Christopher West.

mica178 · October 2010

From a scientific standpoint, in this day and age, 17 embryos is irresponsible. Physicians understand the drugs and hormones they use better and can control how many eggs they "ripen" to avoid these ethical dilemmas. Perhaps 20 years ago they weren't as precise, but scientists and physicians now have decades of experience with reproductive endocrinology and can do better.

But from a religious standpoint, well... Of course I sympathize with couples who deal with infertility. I have not TTC, so I speak theoretically. But my husband and I have discussed these issues (thankfully well before our engagement), and we agree that IVF is morally wrong on multiple levels, from the conception in a petri dish rather than in the woman's body, to the issue of multiple implanted embryos, the pressures to selectively abort, and the question of what to do with the "extra" embryos. We agree that each one of those embryos is a unique human life, how could we condone the selling or discarding of a potential child? If we are unable to conceive, then adoption or fostering are options. H comes from a large family, so we also see being a wonderful aunt and uncle as an equally joyous way of promoting life on earth. Plus there are charitable ways to volunteer and celebrate life. God works in ways mysterious to us humans, and maybe He didn't mean for each and every married couple to produce a genetic child.

catarntina · October 2010

My priest asked FI and I at our first meeting what we had planned to do if we were unable to conceive. Honestly, IVF *never* occurred to me. Our both reaction right away without any thought was "adoption." It was kind of cute, because FI and I responded in unison when asked the question without even looking at eachother.

Our priest said, "Good, good. I'm glad you guys feel that way!" And proceeded to tell us this HORRIBLE story:

A very wealthy and well-known couple in my town could not conceive. So they had IVF. They froze several of their embryos for implantation later (like 15 ish). Well another couple with the same LAST NAME in the same town was also trying to conceive via IVF. The clinic screwed up and gave the couples the wrong embryos!! This woman carried this baby for 9 months and it wasn't even hers, then she had to give it up. The couple willingly gave the baby to biological parents, but the doctor offered to abort the baby for them. I just couldn't believe it, I was so appalled.

I met this lady at a work function last week; she was talking about her twins who were 18 months and she was still breastfeeding. I asked if she planned on having anymore and was using breastfeeding to naturally space the children. She said that since it took 3 rounds of IVF to conceive these children, she wasn't planning on having anymore. I'm still not sure how I feel about that conversation...

Hope61 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:99828f6d-aff8-4a34-aa7d-f5a5975d162e">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]There is no conflict between religion and science. Remember, GOD designed the earth and how it works.Then Christ instituted the church to save souls.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
This.

And... so sad :(
I know someone pregnant with an IVF baby, and for some reason occasionally I think of it as a "fake" baby. I know thats not right, of course, but the way it was so artificially conceived... and articially conceived several years ago, I assume, since this is IVF baby #2 for them...

agapecarrie · October 2010

The ethical issues that arise from this (aside from the already disastrous ones occurring) are ridiculous....

sperm banks, donated sperm, blind paternity, then what about desginer babies? then when all the "smart" ones are chosen, you've got many babies from the same parents and familes, then "accidental" in breeding.

This is no joke.

One does not need to suffer from infertility to know what is right or wrong. The ends don't justify the means.

eshaufle · October 2010

Wow...17. That's ridiculous. I read that and my jaw literally dropped. I personally think that IVF is, for lack of a better term, a little weird to me. I don't necessarily have moral oppositions to it because I don't think I would ever consider it anyways for other reasons so I've never had really any deep thoughts about it. I love science but I do find some sciences extreme and still view them as experiemental and against nature.

I couldn't imagine being in a position where I couldn't have a child though. It's really hard to see the world and logic through someone's eyes that's going through that. I know it can really break people down and they would do anything to have a child.

As of now, if I couldn't then I probably would try and become comfortable with the fact that I won't have children. I know my FI is not keen on adoption and I'm not keen on IVF based on the fact that I do not want a large amount of kids or a higher chance of multiples. I think it would be more devastating to me to have a large amount of kids than to not have any at all. But that's based on what I want out of life...for some it might be worth it to them to take the risk that IVF involves just to have kids.

[Deleted User] · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:8fd546e7-45f3-49a2-b348-81d3942f5a55">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]The ethical issues that arise from this (aside from the already disastrous ones occurring) are ridiculous.... sperm banks, donated sperm, blind paternity, then what about desginer babies? then when all the "smart" ones are chosen, you've got many babies from the same parents and familes, then "accidental" in breeding. This is no joke. One does not need to suffer from infertility to know what is right or wrong. The ends don't justify the means.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Just to be crystal clear, I do not advocate any of the things I have bolded. I think they are terrible and wrong and an absolute travesty of a way to be brought into the world.

I am still not sure where I stand on the process of IVF though. I know where I should stand as a Catholic, but the couples that I have seen be blessed with children through IVF pushes me in another direction.

Blueyed228 · October 2010

This thread makes me ashamed to be having a catholic wedding.

agapecarrie · October 2010

The ends don't justify the means.

Again, about an elderly ill grandmother. We don't kill her, she dies naturally.

-I'm dirt poor, need to feed a family. That does not make it OK or a moral good to steal.

We are talking about human life here, and the way that God designed us to pro-create along with Him and His plan. EVERY CHILD has a right to be conceived by a loving marital embrace. To demand children no matter how is degrading to the children and is to degrade the marital embrace to be less than what it is.

bel138 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:1dacbc34-7783-4356-81c6-3eb588a3239b">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]This thread makes me ashamed to be having a catholic wedding.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

I don't understand why. And I honestly can't read your statement to determine which group of us you're ashamed of.

[Deleted User] · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:1dacbc34-7783-4356-81c6-3eb588a3239b">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]This thread makes me ashamed to be having a catholic wedding.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

Can I ask why?

bibliophile2010 · October 2010

I agree that IVF is a sad, sad option, even though I know and love beautiful children who were "conceived" via IVF. I am saddened for the embryos that will never have life and I am saddened by the disconnect between the couple and God that would lead to such a decision.

I have also known many couples who were able to conceive after adoption or IVF. In both cases, I see God's plan at work. One in which the couple was working within God's plan for our lives, and one in which the couple is ignoring God's will for their lives and imposing their own.

I am saddened that society places such value on having "genetic" children, as if adopted children are somehow lesser. I am saddened that sex is now seen as recreation and completely disconnected from its life-giving purpose. Sex without babies and babies without sex is normal for society but completely wrong for God.

JenGin74 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:bd65ea2b-879f-409e-8548-64e84c043817">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]The ends don't justify the means. Again, about an elderly ill grandmother. We don't kill her, she dies naturally. -I'm dirt poor, need to feed a family. That does not make it OK or a moral good to steal. We are talking about human life here, and the way that God designed us to pro-create along with Him and His plan. EVERY CHILD has a right to be conceived by a loving marital embrace. To demand children no matter how is degrading to the children and is to degrade the marital embrace to be less than what it is.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Fortunately, I'm an Atheist so I can pop out all the IVF babies I want guilt free. Woot!

K&J64 · October 2010

I met my soulmate when I was 22 years old. We've been dating for 7 years and are now engaged to be married on 6/4/11. I'm not religious, my FI is Catholic. It breaks my heart that the church she's been raised in will not bless our union because we are two women, not because I care, but because she cares and it pains her. We're going to have a family, have some "fake babies" from sperm donors, each of us will bear at least one child if we can as we both want to give birth.

I didn't come here for validation, clearly it won't be given. I came here to state that my marriage and my future family, was and will be blessed. Because it is made from love, from two people who would go to the ends of the earth for one another and who are committed to each other. And our children will grow up in a happy home with two mommies who love them very much. And nothing is wrong with this, and God knows it.

Blueyed228 · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:c87c63a2-9e27-4eec-a61e-7cae04f5d7df">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Can I ask why?
Posted by schlagetermari[/QUOTE]

Because it is full of judgements that none of you have any business making. I sure hope none of you have to deal with infertility in your marriages, or financial issues since adoption costs alot of money.

Its funny how science to you all is ok when it is saving your life, but when it is helping people conceive children all of a sudden its a sin.

Its easy to cast stones when you have not had to deal with the issue personally.

Plus, your some of the 'facts' stated are just absurd......

SarahPLiz · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:9d8fc133-b94a-4a6b-844a-53a77316dab6">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Because it is full of judgements that none of you have any business making. I sure hope none of you have to deal with infertility in your marriages, or financial issues since adoption costs alot of money. Its funny how science to you all is ok when it is saving your life, but when it is helping people conceive children all of a sudden its a sin. Its easy to cast stones when you have not had to deal with the issue personally. Plus, your some of the 'facts' stated are just absurd......
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

<div>I agree. How about letting God do the judging once in a while. He doesn't need your input. </div>

tidetravel · October 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:796e95c7-0cf1-4304-88c7-292340a2e2d9">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : How? If I were the result of IVF I would think, "Wow- my parents must have REALLY wanted me to spend that time, money, and to endure the medical procedures." I would not feel degraded in any way, or feel less of a human.
Posted by bree4305[/QUOTE]

Seriously. The thought of my mom and dad having sex certainly doesn't make me feel loved. It's actually kind of creepy.

Heaviness in my heart

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