Speaking of Convalidations...

SoHappyToBeMrsC · January 2011

I was speaking yesterday to the person that runs the annulment ministry at my church, and got all my paperwork turned in. She said that since mine was so simple, it would take a month or two at most, in plenty of time before my confirmation in April.

However, we were discussing my boyfriend's annulment, and because neither he nor his ex wife were Catholic, he has to do the more traditional annulment. It's 20 pages long, necessitating witnessess, affidavits, a psychologist, etc, plus a $500 fee.She told me that the Archdiocese is really backed up, and to expect it to take a minimum of one year, but a year and a half is more realistic.

I am going to turn 30 in 5 months, and my BF is 35. We will most likely get engaged sometime in the next few months, and due to our ages, we are not going to have a long drawn out engagement. If we have to wait for his annulment to come through, we could have a very long delay.

I have endometriosis, ovarian cysts and uterine fibroid tumors. My fertility is going to be an issue for us. Based on a year and a half long annulment, plus time to prep for the wedding, it could very easily be two years before we could get married in the church. That would put me at 32 yrs old. My fertility now is very questionable, and time is not going to help.

The lady told me "you didn't hear this from my mouth, but if you want to get married, go ahead. You can have a civil marriage, and then once his annulment goes through, have a convalidation. That's what I did. My husband and I didn't want to deal with anything big, so we just went down to the courthouse, and had a convalidation later. It's a very sweet ceremony in the small chapel, and you can have friends and family come. Don't let the annulment keep you from getting married or starting a family, especially if you have health issues that could make it difficult the longer you wait. Also, keep in mind that there is no guarantee the annulment will be granted (even though it most likely would be), and spending a year and a half only to hear a "no" would be really detrimental to your plans."

What do you all think? I am totally fine with this plan. I am NOT okay waiting for two years to be able to get married. If I was 25, that would be one thing, but I'm not. I know having the convalidation is not "ideal" but our life circumstances with our ages and my fertility issues are not ideal either.

Calypso1977 · January 2011

dont listen to the church lady. she is not clergy. she clearly doesnt understand the church or the faith.

here's the issue. let's say you get married at the courthouse. sure, the state says you are married, but the church still doesnt until you have your convalidation. therefore, you are still considered to be living in sin, and your children (shoudl you get pregnant) will be considered "illegitimate" in the eyes of the church. now if those things dont bother you, then go with her advice. for me, personally, id be bothered by putting my soul, intentionally, in a state of sin. its really no different than if you just opted to get pregnant now before getting married.

now what if the annulment isnt granted? are you prepared to essentially walk away from your catholic faith forever because you civilly married outside of teh church?

honestly, id talk to your priest. tell him this woman gave you this advice, tell him you arent comfortabel with it, and see if he can some how get you fast tracked at the archdiocese.

SoHappyToBeMrsC · January 2011

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, but based on what you're saying, if the annulment doesn't come through, then I should not marry my BF, and try to find someone else. That's not really an option. I love him with all my heart, and to leave him over this is just.......no.

I am going to talk to my priest though, to get his take on things.

agapecarrie · January 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_speaking-of-convalidations?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:551eb8e4-3d39-49fb-b1a5-976f44c89370Post:2d8b7ba8-cfa7-465f-9b5d-c2c6c7a4b515">Re: Speaking of Convalidations...</a>:
[QUOTE]Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, but based on what you're saying, if the annulment doesn't come through, then I should not marry my BF, and try to find someone else. That's not really an option. I love him with all my heart, and to leave him over this is just.......no. I am going to talk to my priest though, to get his take on things.
Posted by SoHappyToBeMrsC[/QUOTE]

Actually, it has to be an option. Marriage is only once, until death. Your bf is still considered to be a married man. A civil divorce does not and cannot undo a marriage. One can only be married to one person, not two. He took vows. ...how come he doesn't have to honor them?

SoHappyToBeMrsC · January 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_speaking-of-convalidations?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:551eb8e4-3d39-49fb-b1a5-976f44c89370Post:960ef7fa-17c9-4f84-9413-b181d9fea5fa">Re: Speaking of Convalidations...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Speaking of Convalidations... : Actually, it has to be an option. Marriage is only once, until death. Your bf is still considered to be a married man. A civil divorce does not and cannot undo a marriage. One can only be married to one person, not two. He took vows. ...how come he doesn't have to honor them?
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]I
I am really saddened by the harsh judgement I am receiving. For the record, his ex wife left him. He did not want his marriage to be over, but he did not have a say in that. He DID honor his vows. She did not. And also, he is not Catholic. I am. He's doing this for me.
I just had a very long conversation wtih someone at the Archdiocese, who was very helpful. She's a member of the Tribunal, and she was able to shed some light on the process, and also to explain why sometimes they take so long, and also give some tips on to expedite the process.

She confirmed that while having a civil marriage is not in line with the church's teachings, she was realistic enough to say that we have to take our own personal situation into account when making that call, and she also recommended I speak with a priest I trust to receive their counsel.

Some of the holier than thou judgment you ladies posted is one of the many reasons why people are turned off to being Catholic.I understand that you absolutely perfect, marrying perfect Catholic men, but that is not the reality for most people.

Calypso1977 · January 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_speaking-of-convalidations?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:551eb8e4-3d39-49fb-b1a5-976f44c89370Post:2d8b7ba8-cfa7-465f-9b5d-c2c6c7a4b515">Re: Speaking of Convalidations...</a>:
[QUOTE]Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, but based on what you're saying, if the annulment doesn't come through, then I should not marry my BF, and try to find someone else. That's not really an option. I love him with all my heart, and to leave him over this is just.......no. I am going to talk to my priest though, to get his take on things.
Posted by SoHappyToBeMrsC[/QUOTE]

no, that is not waht i said...but you would have some choices to make based on how much you value your catholic faith. if he doesnt get an annulment than he isnt free to marry in the catholic church. so youd have to make a choice as to whether you want to be with him and essentially not be catholic any longer or part ways. but i saw your other thread that things worked out, so its moot now.

agapecarrie · January 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_speaking-of-convalidations?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:551eb8e4-3d39-49fb-b1a5-976f44c89370Post:962968ba-692c-45e0-bcee-b659bc653720">Re: Speaking of Convalidations...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Speaking of Convalidations... : I I am really saddened by the harsh judgement I am receiving. For the record, his ex wife left him. He did not want his marriage to be over, but he did not have a say in that. He DID honor his vows. She did not. And also, he is not Catholic. I am. He's doing this for me. I just had a very long conversation wtih someone at the Archdiocese, who was very helpful. She's a member of the Tribunal, and she was able to shed some light on the process, and also to explain why sometimes they take so long, and also give some tips on to expedite the process. She confirmed that while having a civil marriage is not in line with the church's teachings, she was realistic enough to say that we have to take our own personal situation into account when making that call, and she also recommended I speak with a priest I trust to receive their counsel. Some of the holier than thou judgment you ladies posted is one of the many reasons why people are turned off to being Catholic.I understand that you absolutely perfect, marrying perfect Catholic men, but that is not the reality for most people.
Posted by SoHappyToBeMrsC[/QUOTE]

The judgement word thrown out again. I did not judge you. I didn't make any comment on the state of your soul, or your bf.

Just because one party does not honor their vows, does not negate vows, cancel them out, or make them any less valid. He still took vows. He is still presumed to be married until proven otherwise.
I've never made any "holier than thou" judgements on anyone.... But when one thinks that the rules don't apply to them, or leaving the church is worth it (which is what a Catholic is doing when they get a civil marriage outside the church...especially to someone who is still presumed to be in a valid marriage, they are making a public state of adultery). ... they are choosing a person over God and his laws, which are there to give us a straight path to heaven.

This is not judgement, this is a comment on behavior. Stealing is a sin, it is wrong. Murder is a sin, it is wrong. Adultery is a sin, it is wrong. Just because there is such a thing as a civil divorce does not negate a marriage.

tessa696 · February 2011

I think that you should talk to your priest. There is no way that he's going to tell you that you can't marry this man. Not even a man of the cloth is so judgmental. (Not this day in age. Even the catholic church recognizes that times have changed.)

I'm having my Convalidation ceremony in August. Been married for 12 years civilly. Everyone in my church that I have talked to has not once looked down on me, called me or my husband a sinner or told me my children were illegitimate. As a matter of fact, both my girls were baptised in that same church and one already had her first communion. Believe me, you're making effort, and that's all that matters.

Also, if he didn't get married in the church, then he didn't say his vows in the eyes of god, so how is it a sin that he's divorced? He married into a legally binding contract, so to speak, and the ex wife broke it.

Anyway, good luck!

agapecarrie · February 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_speaking-of-convalidations?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:551eb8e4-3d39-49fb-b1a5-976f44c89370Post:df37ceab-5da6-4a77-8468-d5b955e2a64e">Re: Speaking of Convalidations...</a>:
[QUOTE]I think that you should talk to your priest. There is no way that he's going to tell you that you can't marry this man. Not even a man of the cloth is so judgmental. (Not this day in age. Even the catholic church recognizes that times have changed.) I'm having my Convalidation ceremony in August. Been married for 12 years civilly. Everyone in my church that I have talked to has not once looked down on me, called me or my husband a sinner or told me my children were illegitimate. As a matter of fact, both my girls were baptised in that same church and one already had her first communion. Believe me, you're making effort, and that's all that matters. Also, if he didn't get married in the church, then he didn't say his vows in the eyes of god, so how is it a sin that he's divorced? He married into a legally binding contract, so to speak, and the ex wife broke it. Anyway, good luck!
Posted by tessa696[/QUOTE]

Times may change, but God's laws do not. Objective truth does not.

Once married, you are always married until death. Even if someone breaks the vows, the marriage still exists. This is not "judgemental". This is upholding what God has told us to do.

Non-Catholics are not bound by Catholic marriage laws of getting married in a Catholic church. The Catholic church honors all marriages by non-Catholics and presumes them to be valid until proven otherwise. This is actually what is being "non-judgemental".

kgrunow · February 2011

This issue seems much more complex than could ever be described on a message board. Like I am sure some of you also did, I attended Catholic school from ages 2-18 and one thing that stuck with me from my mortality class is something one of the Brothers told us and that is "if you truly believe something is moral than it is not sin". I thought that summed everything up perfectly. Life is too complex to fit into a set of rules.

My advice it talk to your priest, boyfriend, and maybe a secular therapist. Make the decision that works best for you and only you know what that is; not the people on the internet.

Good Luck with everything.

agapecarrie · February 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_speaking-of-convalidations?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:551eb8e4-3d39-49fb-b1a5-976f44c89370Post:94102db1-0b0c-4adf-aba0-e3bb67a1e16b">Re: Speaking of Convalidations...</a>:
[QUOTE] "if you truly believe something is moral than it is not sin".
Posted by kgrunow[/QUOTE]

This is a gross distortion of the understanding of conscience

It is true that you are judged on what you know, but this does not give license to commit adultery or make up your own rules.

Adam and eve wanted to make up their own rules and be their own God. God doesn't work like that...he doesn't change, and his law doesn't change.

Adultery is wrong. When someone is married ,they are married for life. This doesn't change just because you want it to, or believe it does.

I can believe that 2=2=5 all I want, but that doesn't make it true.

CoCo'sMommy · February 2011

I have a question about this. If the church does not recognize civil marriages, then why does someone who is not catholic or did not have a catholic marriage have to get an annulment? I mean in the eyes of the church their marriage does not exist, so why do they need to be pardoned from something that never existed?? This doesnt pertain to me since my fiance and I have never been married. Although I would really want to know what everyones stance is on this.

Calypso1977 · February 2011

because the church does recognize marriages between non-catholics as valid as long as both parties are non-catholic. i.e., two lutherans marrying in the lutheran church is considered valid.

agapecarrie · February 2011

Only Catholics are bound to marry according to Catholic form.

Non- catholics, baptized or not, can enter valid marriages. If one or both are non-baptized, they can enter a valid natural marriage. (As all marriages were before Christ came).

2 baptized non-Catholics can enter into a valid sacramental marriage.

None of the above people need to be married according to Catholic form.

Therefore, if anyone divorces, they cannot marry again...unless the marriage is proven invalid, because marriage is for life and cannot separate.

mrsflowers07 · November 2011

Although I can see points on both sides I have seen no Biblical backup... What gives?

agapecarrie · November 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_speaking-of-convalidations?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:551eb8e4-3d39-49fb-b1a5-976f44c89370Post:c9ccd6fd-84a1-4a1d-af69-9cff93022f81">Re: Speaking of Convalidations...</a>:
[QUOTE]Although I can see points on both sides I have seen no Biblical backup... What gives?
Posted by mrsflowers07[/QUOTE]

<div>What exactly are you asking about? Lifelong marriage? Jesus talked about that.</div>

mrsflowers07 · November 2011

There are WAY to many points to start quoting this thread... I just thought that because many had such a strong yes/no black/white understanding/opinions as how this situation can be looked at from a Catholic background there would be some solid "see ___ in the Bible" or "see _____ website for Catholics" but I see nothing Biblical to backup either point of view.

lalaith50 · November 2011

Malachi 2:16 "I hate divorce, says the Lord, God of Israel."

Matthew 19:6 "So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore, what God has joined, let man not separate."

Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery."

agapecarrie · November 2011

Once when Jesus is talking about marriage, he says "unless the marriage is unlawful". This is in reference to impediments.

The Catholic church does not only follow the bible. No where in the bible does it say "scripture is the only authority". In fact, in Scripture, it says "the church is the pillar and foundation of truth". In Matthew 16, Jesus passed on authority to Peter, the first pope.

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