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Wedding Woes

Israel really, really pisses me off.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – The United Nations has launched a new plan to teach the Holocaust in Gaza schools, drawing fierce condemnation from Gaza's militant Hamas rulers, school teachers — and even the body tasked with peace negotiations with Israel.

 

If implemented, it would be the first time most Palestinian children learn about Jewish suffering. But the outcry underscores how sensitive the issue is to Palestinians.

 

"Playing with the education of our children in the Gaza Strip is a red line," Hamas Education Minister, Mohammed Asqoul told a website of the group. He said Hamas will block attempts to teach the Holocaust "regardless of the price."

The uproar erupted after a U.N. official told a Jordanian daily in February that UNRWA, the main U.N. agency serving Palestinian refugees, would introduce a short case study about the Holocaust to Gaza students as part of its human rights curriculum.

 

"Instead of pre-emptive accusations, it is important for Palestinians ... to fully understand the tragedies and suffering that happened to all people through generations, without divvying up facts and taking things out of context," the official, Sami Mushasha, was quoted as saying.

 

UNRWA representatives refused to comment on the record, but one official said the agency was committed to introducing the curriculum for the next school year, beginning in September.

He added that officials were hesitating because they feared Hamas would incite loyalists to damage U.N. schools or harm their teachers if they introduce the materials. He requested anonymity because he was barred from discussing the matter with the media.

 

Hamas frequently accuses the U.N. of spreading immorality, and unknown assailants have attacked the agency's property in the past, including the torching of summer camps last year.

 

Since Hamas seized power of Gaza in 2007, it has viewed the U.N. as the main challenger to their influence in the coastal territory. Officials have tried to limit the international group's vast influence in Gaza, where it operates schools for some 200,000 children.

But the controversy over teaching the Holocaust in Gaza is more than a power struggle between the U.N. and Hamas, whose militant officials frequently deny the Nazi genocide of European Jewry ever occurred.

 

Many Palestinians are reluctant to acknowledge Jewish suffering, fearing it would diminish recognition of their own claims. Views range from outright denial to challenging the scope of the Holocaust.

 

Even Hamas' bitter enemy, the Western-backed Palestinian Authority, which rules the West Bank, reacted angrily to the U.N. plan. And the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the chief body tasked with negotiating peace with Israel, rejected the idea.

 

"Teaching the Holocaust to Palestinian students in U.N. schools is unacceptable," said Zakaria al-Agha, a member of the PLO's executive committee.

 

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev called the Palestinian responses "obscene." Israelis consider the Holocaust a central event in modern Jewish history.

 

Some 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis during World War II, and the need to find a sanctuary for hundreds of thousands of Holocaust survivors contributed to Israel's creation after World War II.

 

In a war that followed Israel's declaration of independence, more than 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from their homes.

 

The Palestinians call this dispersal their "Nakba," or catastrophe, and many see the events linked. As such, recognizing the Holocaust is often seen as tantamount to acknowledging Jewish claims to the land.

 

Israeli officials have long said that Palestinian recognition of Jewish suffering is a necessary step toward peace. But for Gaza residents, empathy is particularly difficult: Most of the territory's 1.5 million residents live in poverty, facing Israeli restrictions in commerce and travel, and hundreds of civilians were killed in an Israeli military offensive against Hamas two years ago, aimed at stopping daily rocket attacks at Israel by Gaza militants.

 

Yet even if the U.N. moves ahead with the plan this year, it could face another obstacle: its own schoolteachers.

 

In about a dozen interviews, they said they did not want to teach the materials and warned of rebellion.

 

"The agency will open the gates of hell with this step," said one schoolteacher, Sami. "This will not work."

 

 

 

Now, I'm all about teaching history.  I don't have a problem with that, and I think that anyone who does is unreasonable.  But this:

 

"Israeli officials have long said that Palestinian recognition of Jewish suffering is a necessary step toward peace."

 

is unbelievable.  Hey, Palestinians, we threw you out of your homes to live in camps for generations, because we're crazy assh*les who think God told us he wants us to have your land, but you need to recognize our suffering.  Ridiculous.

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Re: Israel really, really pisses me off.

  • baconsmombaconsmom member
    Knottie Warrior 5000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    They're all 4-y-olds in a sandbox. 
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  • AuntFloAuntFlo member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011

    is unbelievable.  Hey, Palestinians, we threw you out of your homes to live in camps for generations, because we're crazy assh*les who think God told us he wants us to have your land, but you need to recognize our suffering.  Ridiculous.

    I totally and completely agree with you.   I don't understand how what they are doing to the Palestinians is different than what they've had done to them.

    Ugh.   And what really gets me is that most Americans have no idea what's really going on and probably think the Palestinians are the "bad guys."

    Jimmy Carter has tried to spread the word, but nobody will listen because, well, he's Jimmy Carter.

  • ReturnOfKuusReturnOfKuus member
    Eighth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    Yeah, Jimmy Carter is a schmuck.  We need Jon Stewart or someone else cool to publicize it.
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  • AuntFloAuntFlo member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011

    Isn't John Stewart Jewish?   I don't think he'll be publicizing it anytime soon.

    I love Jimmy Carter, but I realize I am one of the few who do.

  • ReturnOfKuusReturnOfKuus member
    Eighth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    Are all Jews pro-Israel?
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  • blush64blush64 member
    Sixth Anniversary 500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I wouldn't compare what the Nazis did to what is happening in Israel. I am informed as to what happened, I just don't think that's fair.

    I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides and we need to focus on both sides understanding eachother and recognizing that they both have a right to exist. I don't see this happening any time soon.
  • notamrsnotamrs member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_israel-really-really-pisses-off?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:47Discussion:6cd4d68e-e03e-4147-a41f-be8706d9867cPost:0dc86a09-1955-4d25-8c3a-318a7b916661">Re: Israel really, really pisses me off.</a>:
    [QUOTE] I love Jimmy Carter, but I realize I am one of the few who do.
    Posted by AuntFlo[/QUOTE]

    I love Jimmy Carter, too. 
  • edited December 2011
    I also have to speak up and say that I love Jimmy Carter - as do my parents.
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  • ReturnOfKuusReturnOfKuus member
    Eighth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    This is the first time I have ever encountered anyone who has liked Jimmy Carter.  Even the people I've met who knew him personally and worked with him before his presidency don't like him.
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  • notamrsnotamrs member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    Well, I've never met him personally, so I don't know if he's likeable or not in that respect.  I just appreciate that he's spent his post-presidency life working on issues that make a difference.  The Carter Center has done some hella good work, IMHO.
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_israel-really-really-pisses-off?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:6cd4d68e-e03e-4147-a41f-be8706d9867cPost:534b75cd-71b7-4237-9a88-38903b65b9b3">Israel really, really pisses me off.</a>:
    [QUOTE] But this:   "Israeli officials have long said that Palestinian recognition of Jewish suffering is a necessary step toward peace."  .
    Posted by ReturnOfKuus[/QUOTE]

    I think that part of the reasoning behind this (again, I THINK) is that if they recognize that the Jews have also suffered then it shows that they aren't necessarily doing this because they are just hateful people, but that they themselves have been the victim and know how it feels. They are also only protecting their own.

    Someone commented that this is similar to what the Jews have had done to them, and this is true, however at the same time the Palestinians,(though not all and it is probably a small part that gets generalized) teach hate through out their generations.

    Most people didn't hear about the recent attack a few weeks ago because it was the same day as the Japanese earthquake and tsunami. But in short, In Itamar as a family slept, a Palestinian got thru the security fence and murdered five members of a family, the mother, father, and three children, a few months old baby (slashed in the throat), a 4 year old (stabbed in the heart twice) and an 11 year old. Afterwards, in the streets of Gaza they were dancing and handing out candy.

    Unfortunately, I think peace is far off for the Middle East.
  • tenofcups4metenofcups4me member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    So the entire article you quoted is based on UN actions, but ISRAEL really pisses you off. Know what pisses me off? Ignorance like what you've spouted through this thread. Just saying.

    Based on this quote, I'd say you could use more than a bit of education yourself:

    Hey, Palestinians, we threw you out of your homes to live in camps for generations, because we're crazy assh*les who think God told us he wants us to have your land, but you need to recognize our suffering.  Ridiculous.
  • DankamieDankamie member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Most Americans can't even point to Israel on a map much less do they care about what's happening "over there" ... unfortunately both sides have arrogant leaders, both sides want an end to the killing of their people but neither side is willing to stop killing first.
  • edited December 2011
    When Palestinian @ssholes MURDER small children I have very little compassion for them

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjK8M4uxcjM

    watch and learn what Palestinians do. maybe if they were taught how Jews suffered, senseless acts of murder of small children, wouldn't happen.


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  • AuntFloAuntFlo member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_israel-really-really-pisses-off?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:47Discussion:6cd4d68e-e03e-4147-a41f-be8706d9867cPost:5be857d9-b96c-4d5b-8046-91455e929592">Re: Israel really, really pisses me off.</a>:
    [QUOTE]Are all Jews pro-Israel?
    Posted by ReturnOfKuus[/QUOTE]

    Well, I'm not going to generalize and say they all are.   But I would guess that 99.9999% are. 

    To the previous poster - - I'm not sure any of us said that we should exactly have compassion for the Palistineans.  And certainly not to ones that murder.  I think what is at issue here (and the meaning of this post) is the hypocritical nature of Isreal's behavior.  It;s a  2 wrongs don't make a right sort of thing.  Or, in this case, 2 million wrongs.

    Also, when I say "Palistine" and "Isreal" I am speaking on general terms, and do not beleive the statements apply to ALL Palistineans or ALL Jews, etc.

    When you say that the Palistineans were celebrating in the streets after the murders you mentioned, you have to be careful there.   You can't believe everything the media reports.  I'm positive that they show videos in countries that we are at war with of Americans celebrating dropping bombs, or soldiers being pumped up to fight a battle.   WE know that this does not mean that ALL American's are pro-war and pro-murder.
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_israel-really-really-pisses-off?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:6cd4d68e-e03e-4147-a41f-be8706d9867cPost:d829f1f6-04da-45cc-b4fc-529d72015420">Re: Israel really, really pisses me off.</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Israel really, really pisses me off. : <strong> Well, I'm not going to generalize and say they all are.   But I would guess that 99.9999% are.</strong>  To the previous poster - - I'm not sure any of us said that we should exactly have compassion for the Pal<strong>e</strong>stin<strong>i</strong>ans.  And certainly not to ones that murder.  I think what is at issue here (and the meaning of this post) is the hypocritical nature of Isr<strong>ae</strong>l's behavior.  It;s a  2 wrongs don't make a right sort of thing.  Or, in this case, 2 million wrongs. Also, when I say "Pal<strong>e</strong>stine" and "Isr<strong>ae</strong>l" I am speaking on general terms, and do not beleive the statements apply to ALL Pal<strong>e</strong>stin<strong>i</strong>ans or ALL Jews, etc. When you say that the Pal<strong>e</strong>stin<strong>i</strong>ans were celebrating in the streets after the murders you mentioned, you have to be careful there.   You can't believe everything the media reports.  I'm positive that they show videos in countries that we are at war with of Americans celebrating dropping bombs, or soldiers being pumped up to fight a battle.   WE know that this does not mean that ALL American's are pro-war and pro-murder.
    Posted by AuntFlo[/QUOTE]

    The bolded statement is ignorant and hurtful.  You also need to think about how you define "pro-Israel."  Does that mean unconditionally supportive of Israel's right to exist?  Supportive of Israel's rational and measured responses to credible threats to its security as a nation?  Another generalization that you are making about "them." 
  • ReturnOfKuusReturnOfKuus member
    Eighth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_israel-really-really-pisses-off?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:6cd4d68e-e03e-4147-a41f-be8706d9867cPost:e58bdebb-d1f6-4d10-b4ce-8b1d8843c37b">Re: Israel really, really pisses me off.</a>:
    [QUOTE]So the entire article you quoted is based on UN actions, but ISRAEL really pisses you off. Know what pisses me off? Ignorance like what you've spouted through this thread. Just saying. Based on this quote, I'd say you could use more than a bit of education yourself: Hey, Palestinians, we threw you out of your homes to live in camps for generations, because we're crazy assh*les who think God told us he wants us to have your land, but you need to recognize our suffering.  Ridiculous.
    Posted by tenofcups4me[/QUOTE]


    Really?  Educate me, please, about how this isn't absolutely exactly what happened.
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  • AuntFloAuntFlo member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_israel-really-really-pisses-off?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:47Discussion:6cd4d68e-e03e-4147-a41f-be8706d9867cPost:b9081cf5-0f06-4abc-851d-bc0025dd75c7">Re: Israel really, really pisses me off.</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Israel really, really pisses me off. : <strong>The bolded statement is ignorant and hurtful.</strong>  You also need to think about how you define "pro-Israel."  Does that mean unconditionally supportive of Israel's right to exist?  Supportive of Israel's rational and measured responses to credible threats to its security as a nation?  Another generalization that you are making about "them." 
    Posted by jessicabessica[/QUOTE]

    I respectfully disagree with the bolded statement.    I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.   I'll admit that I am not always as articulate as I'd like to be, but I think I was pretty clear about the fact that I was making broad, general statements and knew full well that the statements did not apply to all.
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_israel-really-really-pisses-off?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:6cd4d68e-e03e-4147-a41f-be8706d9867cPost:5fd8e953-9804-456f-b146-1ace7e67d16a">Re: Israel really, really pisses me off.</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Israel really, really pisses me off. : I respectfully disagree with the bolded statement.    I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.   I'll admit that I am not always as articulate as I'd like to be, but I think I was pretty clear about the fact that I was making broad, general statements and knew full well that the statements did not apply to all.
    Posted by AuntFlo[/QUOTE]

    Maybe I just don't get your tone; I don't think that's a reading comp issue.  Are you meaning to generalize, or are you meaning to say something specific that you actually think is true?  To me, "99.999% of people that are x think y" is equivalent to saying "basically all people that are x think y."  So I read it as, "I don't mean to generalize, but I'll generalize anyway."  I don't think prefacing the statement with "I don't want to generalize" makes it any less of a generalization.  Make sense?

    There's also a difference between Jewish people and Israelis, which sometimes is not appreciated.  However, in both groups, you will find people who have views across the spectrum on Israel's right to exist, self-determination for Palestinians, and what the involvement of other countries should be. 
  • L_WoodsL_Woods member
    1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I, too, would like to be educated.

    :: sits next to Kuus ::
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  • jcamm11jcamm11 member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_israel-really-really-pisses-off?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:6cd4d68e-e03e-4147-a41f-be8706d9867cPost:37344c20-f9b3-4778-a0f5-e4f42c17cbbe">Re: Israel really, really pisses me off.</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Israel really, really pisses me off. : I think that part of the reasoning behind this (again, I THINK) is that if they recognize that the Jews have also suffered then it shows that they aren't necessarily doing this because they are just hateful people, <strong>but that they themselves have been the victim and know how it feels. </strong>
    Posted by smilygrl17[/QUOTE]

    Having a distant relative that was tortured over half a century ago doesn't mean you know how it feels.
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  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_israel-really-really-pisses-off?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:6cd4d68e-e03e-4147-a41f-be8706d9867cPost:ade0510f-fa22-4737-b0ca-f4c63d6b4c8f">Re: Israel really, really pisses me off.</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Israel really, really pisses me off. : Really?  Educate me, please, about how this isn't absolutely exactly what happened.
    Posted by ReturnOfKuus[/QUOTE]

    At the end of WW2, Europe had a problem. They had turned a blind eye to the descration of an entire people. Furthermore, those that survived had no where to go.  After several areas were discussed (Uganda was also considered as a possible site), they decided to take sections of the British protectorate Palestine and division it off. This was a part of a ton of creations of new countries in the post-WW2 time period. The area that was Palestine was divided into the following sections: the Sinai penisula and Gaza strip were placed in Egypt, the West bank was placed in Jordan, and the Golan was placed in Lebanon. Jerusalem was to belong to no one. The remaining parts (Tel Aviv, the Negev, Haifa, the Galilee) become our modern day Israel. Arab citizens of these areas were NEVER required to leave but they were to recognize that it would be a Jewish state.

    The Arab states were not happy with this solution as they wanted all of Palestine, not just sections of it. They attacked Israel the day the British withdrew (this is referred to as the War of Independence). The Israelis, a tiny country mostly made up of sabras and Holocaust survivors, managed to beat the 6 countries that attacked them that day.

    In 1967, the Israelis noticed that Egypt was gathering a ton of military forces on their border. They recognized that another war was going to start. Israel started a air strike against them (where Jordan and Syria joined in) which lead to a bloody battle. This is when Israel captured the Golan, the West bank, Gaza, and the Sinai peninsula. This is referred to as the 6 day war as it was over very quickly.

    I have to go teach but will come back later with more on the Yom Kippur war.
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  • VarunaTTVarunaTT member
    Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    I certainly hope you don't forget to mention that the Jewish population was just as guilty of acts terrorism in the beginnings of this mess in WWII.

    And to say the Arab population wasn't "happy" with the solution of a brand new country with new residents being carved out of an already existing country (or protectorate) is a bit...lopsided to me.
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