I just have to say I am personally against prenups, but I can understand why some people would think it's a good idea. In OP's case it's really important for you to both calmly talk it out. Your fiance probably doesn't look at it from your point of view at all so he's coming across as more cold and calculating than he means to be. For a lot of people it's a natural step to take, for others it's crating a bad mentality.
What this post does is highlight is how important it is for both people to talk about their beliefs before an engagement if possible. My fiance and I did this before the engagement to make sure that we were both on the same page about not wanting a prenuptial agreement. It can be terribly awkward and unhappy to have a talk about a future apart when you have the ring on the finger and you are in the middle of making plans to be together forever. Much less stressful if you know ahead of time what you would both do.
Good luck
We've been together a really long time and actually marriage has been a topic since pretty much when we met! So we've talked a lot about how we feel about marriage, and we've even talked a lot about my parents' divorce- both together, and with my parents! I still feel like we should discuss more about our specific beliefs about marriage, because I'm a little more anti-divorce than he is. He says he hates the idea of divorce but that he knows a few couples where it was probably a good idea in their scenario, and that drives me up a wall, even though when I really think about it, I know couples like that too. I just can't help but think that the more accepting we are of divorce in general, the more likely we are to get divorced!
Another thing for you to consider, OP: yes, men can cheat. So can women. Any person is capable of doing (almost) anything they want. Nothing you do will stop your FI from cheating on you if that's what he wants to do. Making divorce "hard so he can't just up and leave you" isn't going to work if he truly just wants to up and leave you. You need to stop trying to prevent things that are outside of your control, and work on improving your perspective of yourself and of relationships before you enter into an iron-clad one with your FI.
Yeah, women do cheat just as often as men, it's true! I guess I just feel like that's not possible for me (and yes, I know I sound naive) but I know for a fact I could never do better than SO. I could see myself maybe getting drunk in the future and kissing someone and immediately regretting it, but I can't for the life of me imagine ever having an actual affair.
We have had 3 friends divorce in the last year or so. 2 of the 3 wives cheated. I suspect the 3rd did also, but not sure.
1) Nothing wrong with a prenup. In fact, I signed a prenup and a POST marital agreement. I love my DH more than anything and he feels the same about me. But, we both worked hard before we met each other and just want to preserve what belongs to each of us. As a pp said a prenup can be tailored to your specific needs. It can very easily say something like "in event of divorce, wife gets 10% of husband's savings." One thing it cannot spell out is child support. it will be thrown out if it says that.
2) I once said divorce is not an option. My parents are divorced and it was awful. Guess what? I divorced after two years of marriage.
3) As pps suggested, I think there are lots of things to think about prior to getting married. You also sound like you need to re-prioritize a bit.
4) My concern is that if you reacted like this to the thought of a prenup, imagine what you would do if your FI asked for divorce!!!! Based on your reaction, I would say he definitely has a right to ask for a prenup. It's his business and it sounds like he works hard on it, so he wants to protect it from everything and anything that could harm it.
I don't even want to think about what I'd do if he asked for divorce. The idea of being older than 30 and single is terrifying to me. I have yet to see it work out well for anyone, at least not without TONS of hard work. maybe I'm just living in another time, but it's something I seriously dread.
if you don't mind me asking, why did you get divorced? What were the circumstances of the marriage? I'd be the first to admit I don't know everything about marriage, so I'm curious to know.
Another thing for you to consider, OP: yes, men can cheat. So can women. Any person is capable of doing (almost) anything they want. Nothing you do will stop your FI from cheating on you if that's what he wants to do. Making divorce "hard so he can't just up and leave you" isn't going to work if he truly just wants to up and leave you. You need to stop trying to prevent things that are outside of your control, and work on improving your perspective of yourself and of relationships before you enter into an iron-clad one with your FI.
Yeah, women do cheat just as often as men, it's true! I guess I just feel like that's not possible for me (and yes, I know I sound naive) but I know for a fact I could never do better than SO. I could see myself maybe getting drunk in the future and kissing someone and immediately regretting it, but I can't for the life of me imagine ever having an actual affair.
This. Another instance of you maybe needing some time to work on yourself before you get married. It will only HELP your relationship with your FI. I'm sure he also only wants whats best for you.
I am so sorry that you've been hurt enough in your past that you feel that all men could easily cheat on you and leave you. That's a terrible place to be in your head.
I am glad that you were able to talk to your FI and he could reassure you that he does love you, and that this is just a legal formality.
However, I am 100% in agreement about getting counseling. Depending on the state you live in, you can possibly even get a discount on your marriage license if you have counseling together. It sounds like you have lots of hurt that you need to talk through, and you need to hear from your FI that he is not like those other people who have left scars. Look into local resources like womens' centers, churches, or community centers-- they often offer counseling for free or for an extremely discounted rate.
Thanks for not being snarky (The same can't be said for other ladies here, but I've been on the Internet long enough to know that some people will take any chance to take a low blow, lol). I will look into local resources to see if there is something less expensive. I suppose I could afford therapy but it would cause financial trouble if I saw a therapist more than a few times a year. I also live in a city where therapy seems to be ridiculously expensive! Like $200 per appointment!
Don't let the cost keep you from going. If you work, most companies offer EAP which allows, among other things, counseling for their employees at a fraction of the cost. I took a couple of sessions a few years back and forked over about $40 a visit. Well worth it!
Do you have insurance? Are you in school? I only ask the second question because, when I was at college, there were free counseling services, provided by the graduate students of the psych department. Maybe you would have something similar in your area.
Unfortunately no! We met in college and I got FREE therapy during that time, which was great! I have insurance but it for some reason does not cover therapy, or it barely does.
Also, I have a pre-nup of sorts. I'm the one with the money. I have no intention of leaving my FI and certainly wouldn't jump at the chance to cheat on him just because I know I'd get to keep the house.
Wait, so it's naive to say you would never cheat, but it's a sign of mental illness to say that you suppose it's possible you might accidentally kiss someone at a party someday? I'd be the first to admit I do have an anxiety problem and I am looking for solutions now...but I don't think that particular line is an indicator.
When people get a divorce, there's a general default the law goes to with regards to property, money, custody, etc. It's one-size-fits-all ... except that for some people, that size really doesn't fit. A pre-nup is basically saying, "Here's the size WE need."
One person coming into the marriage with a lot of assets, or with a strained divorce situation, or weird custody issues, or lots of debt can be reasons to need a different size. We've thought a little about a pre-nup because of my partner's significant debt; if we split, I don't want to have to still deal with his student loans.
A pre-nup can also function within a marriage. My dad remarried and he and his wife (also divorced) do not have a pre-nup. Well, according to my parents' divorce agreement, my dad had to pay 65% of college tuition for his children currently in college ... at the time, it was me, and I was estranged from him. And although my dad was the one who was supposed to be paying, because of his financial situation, it was his wife's money that was being used to pay my tuition. Because her assets were his assets, legally it was his money, too. She was not happy that she had to pay for her husband's estranged daughter's tuition.
Anyway, it sounds like you're reconsidering what a pre-nup would really mean. It's not an assumption that divorce will happen. The thing is, even if divorce "isn't an option for you" because you don't think divorce is appropriate or okay ... well, legally, divorce is still an option for you. If you're not going to use your state's divorce laws because you never plan to get divorce, then a pre-nup is really no different; you're just amending the divorce laws that you never plan to use.
I think all men have it in them to cheat and be mindless and leave women for no reason. I think my fiance is a wonderful man but I think if a supermodel wanted ANY man to leave his wife, he'd do it. Just being realistic.
I feel offended by how close minded this sounds. I understand being insecure, but dang... Some guys are jerks, but if you know that in the beginning why are you getting married?! I dated a jerk guy once, and I knew he was a bad type, but it was a phase and I never considered marrying him. My fiancé is someone I trust 100%. That's why I feel good about marrying him. We are also planning to get a prenup. I don't intend or plan to ever get divorced, but I don't plan to get in a car wreck either. I still wear a seatbelt.
I'm partially just feeling emotional right now, I'm already kind of laughing at myself for being so harsh. But anyway, I guess I've just seen so many horrible home-wrecking women who proudly talk about being the mistresses of married men (I see a lot of these on another forum I go to- it's not a marriage forum) so I guess I just feel like these whores are lurking around every corner, trying to snag previously good men! As I type that, I'm aware it sounds absurd, but it's a fear of mine. Again, a trademark of GAD is irrational fears sooo...
I just want to say that just going to therapy doesn't mean you have a mental illness. Sometimes, you just need a different perspective.
I know :) I actually do have a mental illness though, I have GAD. It's not severe or anything but I'm a little wary of "therapy" as a be-all end-all solution because I was in therapy for 15 years with very negligible results.
I just want to say that just going to therapy doesn't mean you have a mental illness. Sometimes, you just need a different perspective.
This! I have gone to therapy on and off for as long as I can remember. I do not have any mental illnesses that I'm aware of (I've been tested, multiple times, for my own peace of mine). However, sometimes, you just need someone impartial to talk to when shit just doesn't feel right.
Seriously, why the FUCK are you stalking me?! You need to get a life and stop being obsessed with me.
Well I'm marrying a guy who could do a lot better than me. It's realistic to think that another woman could steal him down the road when I'm less physically attractive. My parents are divorced so maybe this is just my childhood talking but I want security and I feel like a prenup takes that away.
And this is where I think all of your anger is stemming from- your own insecurities. Don't take that as an insult, everyone has their little insecurities, but you need to get over your feelings that your FI could "Do better than you." If your FI felt that way he wouldn't be marrying you- chances are, YOU are the only person who thinks this way about yourself, and you need to kick those feelings in the ass- you'll never feel truly "Secure" in any relationship if you can't feel secure in your own skin. If you can't get over these feelings that you're not good enough or people will leave when your looks fade, you will never really feel happy and confident, you'll always have that little voice in the back of your mind telling you you're not good enough- and that little voice is an asshole, learn to get rid of it.
You need to understand that the strength in a marriage comes from the bond you two share, not the pieces of paper that "Force" you to be together- and on another note, let's consider your worst case scenario situation- divorce- If, worst case scenario, the two of you find yourselves unhappy down the line, you should not be FORCED to be together due to a piece of paper! I disagree that divorce should be super hard- it should be easy. Because if a couple is truly happy, they won't need divorce anyways so it makes no difference whatsoever to them how easy or difficult it is to get a divorce. But if a couple is unhappy, they shouldn't be forced to stay together.
And back to your worst case scenario situation- would you really ever want it to be that he's only with you because of a piece of paper? You think you're insecure now, how would you feel knowing that the only reason this guy is with you is because it'd be a pain to get a divorce?? Everyone deserves someone who truly wants to be with them. That means you too- If, worst case scenario, this guy ever fell out of love with you, then you would deserve someone better for you anyways.
I think all men have it in them to cheat and be mindless and leave women for no reason. I think my fiance is a wonderful man but I think if a supermodel wanted ANY man to leave his wife, he'd do it. Just being realistic.
Umm, no. That's bullshit. My husband would be quite offended if you said this to his face. Way to generalize and degrade an entire gender.
Agreed, this is bullshit. Men are not some monolithic entity and they are not all likely to do any one thing. It's like saying that all women are going to go spend all of their money on shoes and chocolate.
1) Nothing wrong with a prenup. In fact, I signed a prenup and a POST marital agreement. I love my DH more than anything and he feels the same about me. But, we both worked hard before we met each other and just want to preserve what belongs to each of us. As a pp said a prenup can be tailored to your specific needs. It can very easily say something like "in event of divorce, wife gets 10% of husband's savings." One thing it cannot spell out is child support. it will be thrown out if it says that.
2) I once said divorce is not an option. My parents are divorced and it was awful. Guess what? I divorced after two years of marriage.
3) As pps suggested, I think there are lots of things to think about prior to getting married. You also sound like you need to re-prioritize a bit.
4) My concern is that if you reacted like this to the thought of a prenup, imagine what you would do if your FI asked for divorce!!!! Based on your reaction, I would say he definitely has a right to ask for a prenup. It's his business and it sounds like he works hard on it, so he wants to protect it from everything and anything that could harm it.
I don't even want to think about what I'd do if he asked for divorce. The idea of being older than 30 and single is terrifying to me. I have yet to see it work out well for anyone, at least not without TONS of hard work. maybe I'm just living in another time, but it's something I seriously dread.
if you don't mind me asking, why did you get divorced? What were the circumstances of the marriage? I'd be the first to admit I don't know everything about marriage, so I'm curious to know.
Cue the hags and spinsters *hand up* I can't believe I didn't kill myself when I was over 30 and single…thehorror!!!!
FWIW - I've yet to see marriage work out well for anyone without TONS of hard work.
Well I'm marrying a guy who could do a lot better than me. It's realistic to think that another woman could steal him down the road when I'm less physically attractive. My parents are divorced so maybe this is just my childhood talking but I want security and I feel like a prenup takes that away.
And this is where I think all of your anger is stemming from- your own insecurities. Don't take that as an insult, everyone has their little insecurities, but you need to get over your feelings that your FI could "Do better than you." If your FI felt that way he wouldn't be marrying you- chances are, YOU are the only person who thinks this way about yourself, and you need to kick those feelings in the ass- you'll never feel truly "Secure" in any relationship if you can't feel secure in your own skin. If you can't get over these feelings that you're not good enough or people will leave when your looks fade, you will never really feel happy and confident, you'll always have that little voice in the back of your mind telling you you're not good enough- and that little voice is an asshole, learn to get rid of it.
You need to understand that the strength in a marriage comes from the bond you two share, not the pieces of paper that "Force" you to be together- and on another note, let's consider your worst case scenario situation- divorce- If, worst case scenario, the two of you find yourselves unhappy down the line, you should not be FORCED to be together due to a piece of paper! I disagree that divorce should be super hard- it should be easy. Because if a couple is truly happy, they won't need divorce anyways so it makes no difference whatsoever to them how easy or difficult it is to get a divorce. But if a couple is unhappy, they shouldn't be forced to stay together.
And back to your worst case scenario situation- would you really ever want it to be that he's only with you because of a piece of paper? You think you're insecure now, how would you feel knowing that the only reason this guy is with you is because it'd be a pain to get a divorce?? Everyone deserves someone who truly wants to be with them. That means you too- If, worst case scenario, this guy ever fell out of love with you, then you would deserve someone better for you anyways.
This is a really great, thoughtful comment! I think you're right. I guess I just don't think I'd ever be able to find anyone else if I was in my 30s or 40s when he left. But I guess I'd prefer that to forcing him to be with me if he doesn't like me. My concern is that divorce is too common these days, and I think way too many people go for divorce instead of working their issues out.
I'm partially just feeling emotional right now, I'm already kind of laughing at myself for being so harsh. But anyway, I guess I've just seen so many horrible home-wrecking women who proudly talk about being the mistresses of married men (I see a lot of these on another forum I go to- it's not a marriage forum) so I guess I just feel like these whoresare lurking around every corner, trying to snag previously good men! As I type that, I'm aware it sounds absurd, but it's a fear of mine. Again, a trademark of GAD is irrational fears sooo...
In addition to anxiety issues, you also seem incredibly paranoid. These disparaging, sweeping remarks about women smack as if there has been a home wrecking whore in your past.
I'm partially just feeling emotional right now, I'm already kind of laughing at myself for being so harsh. But anyway, I guess I've just seen so many horrible home-wrecking women who proudly talk about being the mistresses of married men (I see a lot of these on another forum I go to- it's not a marriage forum) so I guess I just feel like these whoresare lurking around every corner, trying to snag previously good men! As I type that, I'm aware it sounds absurd, but it's a fear of mine. Again, a trademark of GAD is irrational fears sooo...
In addition to anxiety issues, you also seem incredibly paranoid. These disparaging, sweeping remarks about women smack as if there has been a home wrecking whore in your past.
Not to mention, a "good man" is not going to just turn into a bad one for no reason. FFS.
Courtesy of HGF, from Yours Mine & Ours - "Frank Beardsley: Life isn't a love in, it's the dishes and the orthodontist and the shoe repairman and... ground round instead of roast beef. And I'll tell you something else: it isn't going to a bed with a man that proves you're in love with him; it's getting up in the morning and facing the drab, miserable, wonderful everyday world with him that counts."
PS my colors are "Blood of my enemies" and "rage" ~@mshutzler
Wait, so it's naive to say you would never cheat, but it's a sign of mental illness to say that you suppose it's possible you might accidentally kiss someone at a party someday? I'd be the first to admit I do have an anxiety problem and I am looking for solutions now...but I don't think that particular line is an indicator.
To suppose you might "accidentally kiss someone at a party someday" when you are about to get married, to me is a sign you might need to discuss some things before getting married.
I think that if you're worried that he's going to cheat and leave you just because he's male, you need counseling for yourself, and then pre-marital counseling with him, before you plan to marry at all.
I myself have a business. And I would sign a prenup to not only protect the business itself, but so that my BF, if he ever becomes my FI and then husband, is protected from being stuck with the responsibilities of running it, paying the bills, etc. It's only fair.
I'd also like to add that if not having a prenup provides you with security, you definitely need to take some time to consider what is making you so insecure.
My fiance and I are both young and have modest savings but he owns his own company, and so that is a large asset. He says that he would like a pre-nup which would cover this company's earnings, but nothing after this company (so if he goes onto another company later, that wouldn't be part of it). Some investor of his recommended this, and I can't even tell you how furious I am at this busybody for trying to mess things up.
I take this as a direct insult to me, a sign that he doesn't even want to marry me. Divorce is not an option for me, and he knows it- so basically, this prenup is just covering HIS ass in case he wants to leave me for some slutty young secretary years down the road. Men leave women for no reason all the time, and I worry about it a lot since my parents are divorced, so this makes me VERY upset and hurt. I want divorce to be HARD so he can't run out on me easily, and there he goes, making divorce a super-fun easy route with this sh*tty prenup.
I don't want to sign it, but more than that, I'm extremely hurt and I feel betrayed. To me this is a sign he doesn't even want to get married. I'm not materialistic and I've never shown that tendency in our 5+ years together. All I want is a marriage that is stable and secure and I feel like a prenup takes that away from me.
A prenup is a reasonable protection of his assets and I do not see the investor as overstepping boundaries, particularly if he has financial involvement with the company.
People do not (normally) enter marriages with the intention that they will fail, but many still fail.
A prenup should have no bearing on your relationship. Unless you have played a major role in the development of his business, you should be respecting this wish of his enough to consider it without emotion.
However, it seems to be surfacing existing insecurities that you have. If you truly believe that your fiance is attempting to set your marriage
up for failure, you need to postpone your wedding and deal with that.
You'll never be subject to a cash bar, gap, potluck wedding, or b-list if you
marry a Muppet Overlord.
Well I'm marrying a guy who could do a lot better than me. It's realistic to think that another woman could steal him down the road when I'm less physically attractive. My parents are divorced so maybe this is just my childhood talking but I want security and I feel like a prenup takes that away.
And this is where I think all of your anger is stemming from- your own insecurities. Don't take that as an insult, everyone has their little insecurities, but you need to get over your feelings that your FI could "Do better than you." If your FI felt that way he wouldn't be marrying you- chances are, YOU are the only person who thinks this way about yourself, and you need to kick those feelings in the ass- you'll never feel truly "Secure" in any relationship if you can't feel secure in your own skin. If you can't get over these feelings that you're not good enough or people will leave when your looks fade, you will never really feel happy and confident, you'll always have that little voice in the back of your mind telling you you're not good enough- and that little voice is an asshole, learn to get rid of it.
You need to understand that the strength in a marriage comes from the bond you two share, not the pieces of paper that "Force" you to be together- and on another note, let's consider your worst case scenario situation- divorce- If, worst case scenario, the two of you find yourselves unhappy down the line, you should not be FORCED to be together due to a piece of paper! I disagree that divorce should be super hard- it should be easy. Because if a couple is truly happy, they won't need divorce anyways so it makes no difference whatsoever to them how easy or difficult it is to get a divorce. But if a couple is unhappy, they shouldn't be forced to stay together.
And back to your worst case scenario situation- would you really ever want it to be that he's only with you because of a piece of paper? You think you're insecure now, how would you feel knowing that the only reason this guy is with you is because it'd be a pain to get a divorce?? Everyone deserves someone who truly wants to be with them. That means you too- If, worst case scenario, this guy ever fell out of love with you, then you would deserve someone better for you anyways.
This is a really great, thoughtful comment! I think you're right. I guess I just don't think I'd ever be able to find anyone else if I was in my 30s or 40s when he left. But I guess I'd prefer that to forcing him to be with me if he doesn't like me. My concern is that divorce is too common these days, and I think way too many people go for divorce instead of working their issues out.
I don't mean to be rude... but exactly how old are you? I ask only because I feel like you have strange ideas about what it is like to be in your 30s. Especially with our generation there is a huge percent of people who wait to get married well into their 30s.
I feel like I would rather be single and 30 than in a bad marriage.
2 comments:
I am still waiting for an example of a "low blow" someone took at the OP. Secondly, you dont have to sign the first pre-nup he shows you. Negotiate something that works for both of you.
Boy OP, you really have a negative look on mistresses. I don't agree with what they do and I believe there are other ways to earn money but you are so wrong in your views. You constantly talk about how these women happily take "honest" men and change them and crap like that.
First off, it takes two to tango. Those "honest" men might not be so honest or why were they looking in the first place?
Second, like I said, I don't agree with what those women do, but it might be a lifestyle they have grown up with or it's the only way they can see to survive because no one will give them a chance or help or provided them with other options. Do you know how many kids don't go to college even now because they believe they won't be able to afford it and don't know about all of the opportunities that are out there for under-privileged children? Not everyone gets the chance to sit down with a guidance counselor, caring parent, teacher, or friend who will help them make good life choices. So please step down from that pedestal.
You need to stop creating and imagining all of these problems and focus on the real issue. You either don't trust yourself or your husband in this relationship. I don't just mean he or you cheating, but possibly even emotionally. Like PPs said, take a step back from the wedding planning and have both couples and individual counseling. Because if you keep thinking this insane (yes, insane) way YOU are going to destroy this marriage before it even has a chance to take off.
2 comments:
I am still waiting for an example of a "low blow" someone took at the OP. Secondly, you dont have to sign the first pre-nup he shows you. Negotiate something that works for both of you.
Agreed. It is highly recommended that you have a lawyer review it prior to you signing it. Even though I helped draft the prenup, we did it through my DH's lawyer. He cannot legally represent both of us, so I hired someone to review it and provide comments.
Re: He wants a pre-nup, I feel horrible and insulted.
if you don't mind me asking, why did you get divorced? What were the circumstances of the marriage? I'd be the first to admit I don't know everything about marriage, so I'm curious to know.
This! I have gone to therapy on and off for as long as I can remember. I do not have any mental illnesses that I'm aware of (I've been tested, multiple times, for my own peace of mine). However, sometimes, you just need someone impartial to talk to when shit just doesn't feel right.
Not to mention, a "good man" is not going to just turn into a bad one for no reason. FFS.
I myself have a business. And I would sign a prenup to not only protect the business itself, but so that my BF, if he ever becomes my FI and then husband, is protected from being stuck with the responsibilities of running it, paying the bills, etc. It's only fair.
People do not (normally) enter marriages with the intention that they will fail, but many still fail.
A prenup should have no bearing on your relationship. Unless you have played a major role in the development of his business, you should be respecting this wish of his enough to consider it without emotion.
However, it seems to be surfacing existing insecurities that you have. If you truly believe that your fiance is attempting to set your marriage up for failure, you need to postpone your wedding and deal with that.
You'll never be subject to a cash bar, gap, potluck wedding, or b-list if you marry a Muppet Overlord.