A bit naive, but someone explain to me?

MadHops21

I understand and agree about not getting married before your wedding because it's unfair to guests. When people say that they want to actually came to the wedding to see the couple get married, what moment does the couple become married? 

I've seen couples do the whole ceremony, then sign the license after the guests have left the church. Isn't that paper the moment they become officially married? I've only been to 2 weddings, so I'm still learning.

LDay2014

You are officially married once you have signed that piece of paper.

Vows, are nice, but secondary to the legal aspect...you cannot be legally wed without that paper.

Once it is signed, you are husband and wife.

grumbledore

The couple "gets married" when the officiant says, "By the power vested in me by blah blah blah I now pronounce you husband & wife/married/whatever."  But if they've already done that, then it's just playacting at the fake ceremony.

artbyallie

Well, the paperwork has to be filed after the fact with the court, so that's not the moment that makes it a marriage. The papers can't be filed without there being vows made and witnessed by a legal officiant (which in the U.S. includes ordained ministers) and whatever other witnesses required by state/county law. Therefore the ceremony officiated by the minister or judge or what-have-you is the moment a couple is considered wed, even though the papers may not be signed or completed until afterward.

The problem we have is when people try to say 'the papers' don't really mean anything and they're just 'getting that out of the way.' You do still have to indicate consent and commitment in order to file them, and even if you do that at the clerk of court in five minutes, it constitutes a wedding ceremony.

MadHops21

If you go to a court house, does the officiant say "By the power invested in me..."? So that makes it official? I'm just thinking of the big moment when it happens. 

I know in Catholic weddings, the bride and groom turn and get pronounced husband and wife, but sometimes the ceremony will continue. So they get married in the middle of the ceremony. Maybe it's just the style they chose because I don't know the difference between each ceremony in churches yet. 

HisGirlFriday13

It depends on a lot of factors.

In Jewish weddings, the couple is actually married in the eyes of God when they sign the ketubah.

In Quaker weddings, the couple is married in the eyes of their Meeting when they stand up and say their vows.

In Catholic weddings, the couple is married in the eyes of the Church when they repeat their vows and the priest says, 'By the power vested in me...'

In Protestant weddings, the couple is married in the eyes of God when they say their vows and the minister says, 'By the power vested in me...'

Not all states require the couple to sign the marriage licence -- PA doesn't, so our priest signed our licence attesting to the fact he had performed a Catholic Wedding Mass on Oct. 13 with me and DH as participants -- but by the time he signed that, we were married in the eyes of God and our families and our friends and our Church. The piece of paper (which is not to be discredited in any way) was what made it legal for the state. 

(PA also has self-uniting marriage licences, for our large Quaker population, and those I think the couple does have to sign, but I'm not sure).

In most cases, the filing of the legal paperwork -- and filling it out -- comes AFTER the declaration of intent and the recitation of vows, which is the part that people came to see. 

When we talk about not getting married before your wedding, we mean not signing the piece of paper -- that confers so many legal rights and benefits and protections -- and then pretending it's 'just a piece of paper' and that you're 'not really married' unless you have the big ceremony and hoopla and whatever.

MadHops21

HisGirlFriday13 said:

When we talk about not getting married before your wedding, we mean not signing the piece of paper -- that confers so many legal rights and benefits and protections -- and then pretending it's 'just a piece of paper' and that you're 'not really married' unless you have the big ceremony and hoopla and whatever.

THIS makes sense! Thank you! And now I see what you mean, religious perspective. I thought it was when they signed the license, and it seemed odd that the paper was signed after guests left the church. I thought that's what everyone waited for. Everything is so much clearer now. 

thisismynickname2

To go along with what HisGirl explained, I thought, and I could be wrong, that in some countries or religions the couple is married after THE MAN makes his vows.  In modern times that's offensively outdated, but truly, I think that was the case at some point.  Fun tidbit of the morning. 

sofakingmad

We were required to go to the court house and sign all the paperwork 3 days before the wedding.  

HisGirlFriday13

MadHops21 said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

When we talk about not getting married before your wedding, we mean not signing the piece of paper -- that confers so many legal rights and benefits and protections -- and then pretending it's 'just a piece of paper' and that you're 'not really married' unless you have the big ceremony and hoopla and whatever.

THIS makes sense! Thank you! And now I see what you mean, religious perspective. I thought it was when they signed the license, and it seemed odd that the paper was signed after guests left the church. I thought that's what everyone waited for. Everything is so much clearer now. 

Glad to help! Since DH and I are Catholic, the ONLY way we could be married in the eyes of our Church is to have a priest (or a deacon) perform a Nuptial Mass (or Marriage outside of Mass). 

Going to the JP would not have counted in the eyes of our Church. Because marriage is a sacrament, we had to have that rite performed by someone in the church. But then, once the priest performed the rite, he just had to sign the paper that told the state he had done so -- he was certifying to the clerk of courts that we had, in fact, gotten married and he'd performed the ceremony and so now we were legally married.

Protestants, I know, can get married at the JP and then their marriage is valid in the eyes of the church as well. I'm not sure about Jewish people or Quakers, and obviously if you're non-religious the piece of paper is the only binding agent you need.

MadHops21

HisGirlFriday13 Do you know anything about Lutherans with Catholics? I don't know if you can do a full mass, but FI did First Communication and Reconciliation and Baptized? Or does that vary by church? 

My parents want the full blown Catholic Mass, but FI is Lutheran and I don't think he wants to convert. We privately talked about it, and he did not seem too keen on converting, which I'm fine with and agree with him. I'm wondering what types of ceremonies are done with different religions, even if we are both Christian. 

HisGirlFriday13

@MadHops21 -- I actually do! 

You can do a full Catholic Mass if only one participant is Catholic (the difference between the full Mass and only the Rite of Marriage is actually the Mass itself -- in a full Nuptial Mass, there's the Liturgy of the Word, the Rite of Marriage, and then the Liturgy of the Eucharist. In a partial Mass, you skip the Liturgy of the Eucharist.)

He does not need to convert to be married in the Catholic Church -- BUT -- you both will still have to go through the pre-marital classes (pre-Cana) and your FI will have to promise not to interfere with you raising the children (if any) Catholic.

I say this a lot on these boards; the ceremony itself is what you and your FI want, not what anyone else wants. It's all well and good if your parents want a full-blown Catholic Mass, but what do YOU want?

Are you a practising Catholic? If you're not, I wouldn't recommend getting married in the Church unless you plan to practise again in the future. However, if you get married outside the Church (even by another Christian denomination), you will be out of Communion with the Church and unable to partake in the sacraments (such as the Eucharist). 

However, if you plan to raise your kids Catholic, and you plan to continue to practise your faith, then you should have the Catholic Rite of Marriage (I would skip the full Mass and therefore the Liturgy of the Eucharist since your FI couldn't take communion.)

It really depends on where you are in your faith and what you plan to do going forward. If you don't plan to raise your kids Catholic, then maybe having a Lutheran service would be better for you and your FI.

MadHops21

HisGirlFriday13 I practice very little now, but used to be in it a lot. I plan on practicing more in the future, when my busy life has calmed after school (full time student and full time job and part time babysitter for my niece and nephew). I plan to raise children Catholic, and FI is fine with it. 

What does the Liturgy of the Eucharist have that Mass doesn't? Or vice versa.

HisGirlFriday13

Then I recommend (a) getting back into your faith NOW and (b) having a Catholic wedding, so you'll be in Communion with the Church and thus able to receive the sacraments.

The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the part of Mass that's Communion, essentially -- everything from the preparation of the gifts through transubstantiation and consecration, through receiving Communion itself. Since your FI, as a Lutheran, cannot receive communion in the Catholic Church, I would recommend skipping it (it looks weird to me when only half the bridal couple takes communion. Since the day is supposed to be about unity, I think it should be both or neither, but that's an entirely personal preference).

If you omit that part, you'll do the Liturgy of the Word (first reading, responsorial psalm, second reading, gospel acclamation, gospel reading, homily), and then the Rite of Marriage (the vows). Then the priest will say a final prayer and blessing, you'll kiss, and it will be over.

Only the practising Catholics in the audience will know that the Mass wasn't a full Mass; the Protestants won't notice.

Honestly, if you plan on practising 'in the future' but you're not actively practising now, you might have a hard time finding a priest who will marry you. A lot of priests are really cracking down on non-practising Catholics who want the sacrament but don't want to follow the rest of the rules.

It's Lent -- now is a great time to get back into your faith! You can always page or PM me if you have questions about this kind of stuff. 

daria24

I had a self-uniting marriage in PA-we were married the moment when we (the couple) and our two witnesses signed our marriage license, which stated that we had taken each other as husband and wife. We signed our license during the ceremony, after the vows/ring exchange. 

MadHops21

daria24 said:

I had a self-uniting marriage in PA-we were married the moment when we (the couple) and our two witnesses signed our marriage license, which stated that we had taken each other as husband and wife. We signed our license during the ceremony, after the vows/ring exchange. 

The funny part is, this reminds me of when my FI was buying a car from his buddy and they needed 2 witnesses to sign the paper to pass the ownership to my FI. Now I'm giggling at the thought of marriage being like a car sale. 

laceybird

Whenever I attend a wedding, it's more to show support for the couple's decision to marry and to join them in celebrating one of life's milestone. I don't necessarily care about having to see the EXACT moment it becomes legalized in paper form in order to feel like I saw someone getting married.

The paperwork is what makes it official, but as a guest, I feel watching the couple symbolize the commitment (and the officiant doing his/her "by the power" spill), is good enough for me to say I witnessed someone getting married.

photokitty

It varies based on the state. 

In Ohio you are legally wed when the licensed authority says - "by the power vested in me by the state of Ohio, I now pronounce you husband and wife." You actually don't need anything else. It is not official until the paperwork is submitted with the persons who has that authority's signature. 

In Ohio you sign the license when you pick it up and do not sign anything after the wedding. So the minster/jop/mayor's proclaiming it valid is when you are actually married. If the paperwork is never filed you would of course not be legally married once the license to marry expires.

tcnoble

So when I get married next year - we will pick up our marriage license (presumably) on the day before the wedding... we get married Saturday... we leave Sunday for the honeymoon. Does our officiant take the paperwork/license to the courthouse or do we do that when we return?? I'm with a lot of newbies here and just don't know all these things yet!

daria24

tcnoble said:

So when I get married next year - we will pick up our marriage license (presumably) on the day before the wedding... we get married Saturday... we leave Sunday for the honeymoon. Does our officiant take the paperwork/license to the courthouse or do we do that when we return?? I'm with a lot of newbies here and just don't know all these things yet!

In most cases I believe the officiant takes care of sending in the license (you should ask your officiant if he/she will take care of this). Since we didn't have one, we mailed it from our honeymoon because it had to be postmarked within a certain number of days after the signing. You didn't have to hand deliver it to the courthouse, the mail was fine. 

mysticl

LDay2014 said:

You are officially married once you have signed that piece of paper.

Vows, are nice, but secondary to the legal aspect...you cannot be legally wed without that paper.

Once it is signed, you are husband and wife.

Um, we didn't sign that piece of paper.  We signed the application a few days earlier but not the actual license.  Only the minister signed that, two days after our wedding because he had somewhere else to be right after the ceremony.  

APDSS22

tcnoble said:

So when I get married next year - we will pick up our marriage license (presumably) on the day before the wedding... we get married Saturday... we leave Sunday for the honeymoon. Does our officiant take the paperwork/license to the courthouse or do we do that when we return?? I'm with a lot of newbies here and just don't know all these things yet!

Our officiant took care of sending ours in after the ceremony.  I would ask your officiant to see if they typically handle it or if they expect you to.

mysticl

tcnoble said:

So when I get married next year - we will pick up our marriage license (presumably) on the day before the wedding... we get married Saturday... we leave Sunday for the honeymoon. Does our officiant take the paperwork/license to the courthouse or do we do that when we return?? I'm with a lot of newbies here and just don't know all these things yet!

You should be able to look up the requirements for applying for a marriage license in your state online.  When you apply the clerk will let you know what you have to do to file the paperwork.  In our case we went to the officiant's office two days after our wedding.  He signed it and handed it to us.  We then put it in the mail.  It had to be back to the courthouse that issued it within a certain number of days.  

HisGirlFriday13

We signed when we picked up the licence (in PA, marriage licences are only valid for 60 days, but there's a three-day waiting period, so we had to get it no sooner than 60 days out, but with enough time to allow for the waiting period).

We gave the licence (with our names printed in by the clerk of courts, because the licences are numbered) to our priest a week or so before our wedding.

The day-of, he filled it out, gave us the top part (they're divided in thirds), kept the middle part for the diocesan records, and mailed the third part back to the clerk of courts office.

We got married on the Sunday of Columbus Day weekend, so I think he mailed it Oct. 15, and we had our official licence by the next week.

In most states, if your officiant has to sign the licence, he or she also has to mail it as a matter of course.

AddieCake

We had to sign papers 3 days before the wedding as well. The license was only good for 30 days and we had to have it at least 3 days before the wedding. 

MadHops21

AddieL73 said:

We had to sign papers 3 days before the wedding as well. The license was only good for 30 days and we had to have it at least 3 days before the wedding. 

Is there a reason why it's 3 days before the wedding? I keep seeing that number on here. 

AddieCake

For us it was b/c my husband left January 1st for an out-of-state job and didn't come back until 3 days before the wedding which was on March 24th. We couldn't do it any sooner than 30 days b/c the license was only valid for 30 days. ETA: As for why it's at least 3 day, I can't really say. Maybe to prevent spur-of-the moment wedding mistakes?

mysticl

MadHops21 said:

AddieL73 said:

We had to sign papers 3 days before the wedding as well. The license was only good for 30 days and we had to have it at least 3 days before the wedding. 

Is there a reason why it's 3 days before the wedding? I keep seeing that number on here. 

Some states have a waiting period from the time you get the license till you have the wedding.  There was not a waiting period in our state.  We could have walked straight from the clerk's office into a ceremony.  

HisGirlFriday13

For whatever reason, 72 hours (three days) is often the default legal standard for waiting for things.

photokitty

My best guess on the 3 day waiting period some states have is that it is a hold over from the days when states required blood tests to get married…that and to discourage marriages that weren't thought out or perhaps "shotgun-ish"???

I found this interesting:

http://marriage.about.com/cs/marriagelicenses/a/waitingtime.htm

States with clauses in addition to the waiting period:

Delaware: 24 hours. If both of you are nonresidents, there is a 96 hours waiting period.

Florida: No waiting period for Florida residents have both completed a state sanctioned marriage preparation course within the last 12 months. There is a three-day waiting period for Florida residents who have not taken the course.

Louisiana: 72 hours. Out-of-state couples can get married in New Orleans without the 72-hour wait.

MadHops21

photokitty is it common to do blood tests for marriage? I don't know where to look for Illinois marriage requirements...or how often they change. My brothers got married years ago (they are 10 years older than me), so apparently things have changed a bit I guess.