New Texas law requires students to pick career path in 8th grade.

audrewuh

LINK

NPR posted this today. Thoughts?

Some say it decreases the drop out rates, of which Texas has one of the highest in the nation. 

Others say the anxiety created by the pressure to make a career choice at the age of 13 or 14 is too much for adolescence. 

(And yes, this is really happening, although some districts are carrying it out in different ways)

KeptInStitches

Oh good god. All I have to say is that if I was picking my career path in 8th grade - relying on the results of the test I took - I'd be a hairdresser. Which is totally the path that someone who wears her hair in a pixie cut because it requires no work should take.

labro

I think it's a good plan as long as they carry it out well...ie all students are enrolled in the same basic courses (math, science, language, literature, etc.) so their education is well rounded. I agree their biggest challenge is with providing more counselors to help guide students towards their strengths and/or major interests. I know as an 8th grader that my strongest subject was reading/writing/comprehension and my weakest was in math so I would have definitely chosen a heavy arts and humanities or interdisciplinary studies path.

I think it also needs to be emphasized that students DO NOT have to stick with their chosen path...and I also feel that switching your path up to a certain period (say 1.5 or 2 years in) shouldn't impact your ability to graduate in four years with your peers. That way students have to opportunity to change their minds if they made a mistake or find that their interests swing in another direction when they hit high school. I also think counselors need to reassure students that choosing a particular path doesn't mean they have to stick with that career for the rest of their life. I went to college for journalism and political science and now I'm working as a contract manager at a software company. Neither of those are directly related although they both indirectly helped me on my path (I could have gotten as much indirect help in a business related or even finance related major).

ETA: I also chose a BA when I went to college rather than a BS degree (I had the option) because I KNEW I sucked at math and it wasn't my strongest subject. With a BA I only had to take a couple math courses and a couple science courses versus a very math/science heavy degree path. I think this could be helpful for students who either know their strengths/weaknesses or can be guided by counselors who help them discover their strengths/weaknesses.

Ollie08

I may be alone with this, but I actually think it's a great concept. Provided the kids can switch paths. For a while after high school I felt gypped because everyone was always telling me "You have PLENTY of time to decide what you want to do" and then one day it's "Oh, you have to choose what you want to do for the rest of your life right.this.second." 

I think this will help to narrow down choices for the kids and allow them to study more specific subjects to their interests which should keep them more engaged. Education is definitely not one size fits all. Again, as long as they can still make the change, I think this is a good thing. I made a ton of changes throughout college and it really pissed me off because it took me far longer and it cost me way more than it should have. If I had been exposed to the different career paths earlier in HS I don't think I would have had that much change. 

audrewuh

I know in 8th grade I was dead set on being a veterinarian. Once our counselor came in to talk to us about our high school schedule, which we had to choose all four years of classes for in a manner of a few hours, I was immediately burned out on ever being in school longer than the next 8 years of my life. So, I chose not to be a veterinarian. 

I was a part of a program in 6th grade called Vital Link that paired groups of students up according to their industry interest and they got to shadow adults in that career path for a week. It was really, really cool. I chose agriculture (again, the vet thing), and I got to see a lot of different things, although it was mostly farming. 

Peaseblossom55

I don't like this idea.  I think I make a perfect example.

My entire life I wanted to be actress and/or dancer.  I took dancing and acting classes and singing.  In high school I tracked into a performing arts high school for half of the day my junior or sophomore year.  I got into one of the top acting schools in my area (at the time anyway)and got my degree in acting.  I had early on chosen my path, ignored a lot of other options but dedicated myself to becoming a professional actress.  Mid way through my junior year in college I had this revelation I guess. I did not want to be a professional actress. It would have been starting from scratch to choose a new major at that point.  I took a few general ed courses senior year and discovered I really liked business and accounting and at some point wanted to go back for my MBA. 

 I did go back for my MBA 3 years later, but it was a challenge some programs didn't like that I didn't have a non business undergrad major.  My Math skills were severly lacking and I had to take some basic math college course just to understand basic alegbra.  The MBA program was tough and so worth it on so many levels.  So I went from a girl who dreamed of broadway to a girl working for a major corporation doing financial compliance work.  I wouldn't change my path for a minute but at 17 I didn't know myself well enough to make career choices that young, or even stick with it.  I learned a lot about myself in college and about the type of adult I wanted to be. I don't think at 13 a kid knows themselves well enough yet.  What if a kid changes their mind?

Ok end rant. 

Dignity100

I think it depends on how they are carrying it out (I have not read the article). 

In 8th grade we had to choose if we were doing:
College Prep career path
Vocational School career path
Just trying to Graduate and get the hell outta dodge - career path

Any of these allowed you to still go to college if you so choose, but the College Prep was the only one that REALLY tried to prepare you for it.

Had I had to pick a career in 8th grade, I probably would have picked psychologist/social worker or maybe even teacher (I did a lot of tutor work and teacher's aide type work in high school / jr. high school).  Honestly, either of these would have been ok for me, but I'm glad I landed in IT.

CLoGreenEyes

Hm. I'm not excited about this at all.

To begin with, I'm not convinced this is a great way reduce the dropout rate (I admit I read the article quite quickly - has a similar approach been shown to work?).

It also seems to be pushing kids more toward preparing for college as opposed to considering any number of career paths. Not all kids are going to want to pursue a college education, and the five tracks didn't seem to cover fields like HVAC tech, auto mechanics, hospitality services, cosmetology, etc. - all viable career choices, if done properly. I would think the proposed approach would be discouraging for kids who see themselves fitting into one of these careers as opposed to something else.

I think there are good intentions here, but the implementation could be a lot less stringent. Maybe require kids to do a shadowing day with a mentor in their field of interest. Maybe some volunteer/internship hours each year in a field of their choice. And I think having certain required classes plus some electives of the child's choosing are a good idea, but it shouldn't be ALL oriented toward a certain career path. I know that while I am not an actress or a writer, the theater and English classes I took in high school were pivotal in cementing some serious hobbies and passions of  mine, and that shouldn't be discounted.

In sum, I think it's good to encourage kids to think about their future careers, the lifestyle they want, what they are good at, etc. But asking them to commit to a prescribed set of classes at this young of an age, even if it can be changed along the way, is asking too much. I believe in general education curriculums and letting kids try a variety of things; otherwise, it's basically like sending a 14-year-old to college already.

buddysmom80

Where I live, you have the choice or enrolling into a regular "academic" high school (in your town), going to a technical school where it was 80% academic and 20% trade stuff like computers, hairdressing, automotive, culinary, etc. (my FI did this) or being placed in a lotto for the nearest major city's magnet school program (where different schools are focused on different disciplines: art, science, nursing, etc).

It's not a law, I don't think I would be able to make that choice in 8th grade. In 8th grade, I thought I wanted to be a marine biologist. I work in healthcare finance now, go figure. Plans change, interests change, etc. Like @ollie08 said, as long as they are able to change their minds (and not like their last semester of senior year), I don't think it's a HORRIBLE idea.

audrewuh

I agree with @lapeanut1018 that education isn't "one size fits all" but I think they're going about it the wrong way. I think the program in itself is good, but it shouldn't be labeled as an intended career path. That kind of pressure on a 13 year old, I think, is way too much. 

Also, "counselors" are no longer counseling, they're only offering scheduling assistance. Our counselors are getting masters degrees in counseling and once they get to a school, they are so busy putting students in the right classes, they aren't available to actually counsel. 

We need to supplement our counselors with other resources so that they are available to actually counsel students in real life situations, removed from class schedules and career/college decisions. 

audrewuh

@clogreeneyes said everything I've ever wanted to say, ever. 

Our local PBS station did a documentary following six kids in one high school who were all in danger of dropping out. The high school has the highest drop out rate in the state, and it's something like 80%. It's ridiculous. I wonder if I can find it...

ETA: Here's the documentary. I couldn't find a well written article about the series in my brief 5 minute google search, so you'll have to deal with the videos. It's called "Dropout Nation"

labro

@audrewah I think @Ollie08 said education isn't one size fits all...which I guess I sort of said too in a lot more words.

I like your point about labeling. In GA, we have a lot of charter schools. A bunch of people I graduated with went to a math/science focused charter school and they all loved it...however they had to return to regular public school their senior year because the charter school lost funding. I think a program like Texas is trying to implement is needed...there definitely appears to be a desire from students who wish to focus on their strengths in education. It may also give schools the opportunity to teach a subject more in depth rather than our current approach of "a mile wide and an inch deep".

bethsmiles

I don't know how to feel about it. I had no idea what I wanted to do in eighth grade and I have no idea which of those categories I would've picked back then. Not to sound braggy but I had a lot of strengths and a lot of interests as a kid. Picking a category would've more meant well now you're ignoring these strengths/interests for these.

But I can see a system like this having benefits as well.

Blue & White

I want to say Florida (or at least the city I graduated in) did this right after we graduated high school, but it was carried out in the "okay, everyone still has to take x amount of math, x amount of english" etc.  It's fine for getting more specialized electives, but it sucks if you're like me - a math/science nerd that would die without arts classes.

It should be known I was college track all the way and had 50 some hours of college credit before I ended up in college.  I still changed majors in college and changed career paths like 3 times.  I'm not even 30 yet lol.

Blue & White

@bethsmiles eye to eye.  I was too damn smart to limit myself to one career path at age 13.  My social studies teacher told my mom (when I was 13) that I was smarter than her (my teacher).  My mom totally told me and I never respected that teacher again - because YOU JUST SAID YOU WERE LESS SMART THAN A 13 YEAR OLD!

audrewuh

There's such a drastic spectrum of students to teach to that I'm not sure if a policy this wide should be implemented across such a massive state. There are so many different issues facing different regions of the state, that to say to everyone that they should go to college really disenfranchises a lot of families and students. 

I like the method @buddysmom80 talked about and wish there was more vocational training available. 

I also would like to see more people like @blue&white speaking into the lives of young children and saying it's okay to change your career path multiple times. You're not a failure if you try new things. 

CLoGreenEyes

@audrewuh, I started listening to the video you posted. It is LONG! I've only done a few minutes so far, but from what I'm gathering, dropping out seems to have more to do with other issues in a child's life than simply not having a specific career path narrowed down. Stressors in the home, drug problems, relationship problems, bullying, psychological issues - all of these things seem to play a much bigger role in a kid's apathy toward school or decision to drop out. How can anyone think about their future when their life right at this moment isn't stable or safe? We see eye-to-eye on needing more counselors who can actually provide the support and guidance kids need without merely putting together a class schedule that will later make an impressive transcript. Attention needs to be given to the issues kids are facing in the rest of their lives, not JUST to what will happen to them 4 or 5 years down the road - although that is important as well. ETA: Also agreeing with @Blue - making a decision on a career path doesn't mean you won't change your mind later in life. It just adds pressure to feel like you have it all figured out at an earlier age. There is nothing wrong with trying new things and redefining yourself. While we all need to learn to support ourselves at some point, and be responsible, self-sufficient people, no one should fear taking their life in a new direction if something doesn't interest them or help them grow after a while. ETA 2: TK has decided I don't have to post paragraphs like the rest of you. I feel speshul.

500days

Overall, I think kids should be considering career options earlier than the end of high school. Currently, we only ask students (over 13) in special education to explore career inventories, future living arrangements and other post graduate goals. I believe that many students would benefit from career paths. If the student's curriculum included 1 ELA, 1 Math, 1 SS & 1 Science course, that would really only leave room for 1 or 2 more courses as a part of this career path program. I think it could also give kids the opportunity to try a career path prior to trying it at college. It could definitely be a valuable learning experience.

CLoGreenEyes

500days said:

Overall, I think kids should be considering career options earlier than the end of high school. Currently, we only ask students (over 13) in special education to explore career inventories, future living arrangements and other post graduate goals. I believe that many students would benefit from career paths. If the student's curriculum included 1 ELA, 1 Math, 1 SS & 1 Science course, that would really only leave room for 1 or 2 more courses as a part of this career path program. I think it could also give kids the opportunity to try a career path prior to trying it at college. It could definitely be a valuable learning experience.

I think basically all of the bolded are things that we are neglecting right now. I for one think that some kind of money management course would have been incredibly helpful in high school. I wish that some time had been devoted to ALL the decisions we have to make in the future - obviously some emphasis on career paths, but budgeting, investments, retirement, how to buy a car, how to buy a house, how to maintain those things, the list could go on...I came out of high school incredibly smart and incredibly not all at once. Just a little bit of exposure to certain things would have been very helpful, and I imagine a lot of kids end up learning this stuff by trial and error. It might be worth devoting an assembly, a semester-long class, or even a few advisory periods (do they still have those?) to certain topics.

phira

I don't really think that making 13- or 14-year-olds pick a career path so early (even if they can change it) is going to affect drop out rates. Or, if anything, I could see that kind of a system increasing the rates: If you make it halfway through high school only to decide you hate the career path you picked, then why bother continuing?

If anything, I'd like to see a shift towards real-world practicality of every subject. Art is great--what can students do with it? Emphasize the benefits of learning history from a career perspective. Etc.

And I'd love to see more life skills courses, taught by people who are trained to teach that kind of material (like, ya know, hire sex educators to teach sex ed, for example). It would have been immensely helpful in high school AND college to learn about retirement plans.

leia1979

At 13, I barely knew what career paths were out there. I waited until the last possible moment to declare a major in college. I didn't figure out what to do until I was 26 and had been working in tech for a year (started in PR and got disillusioned quickly) and got the opportunity to learn about the jobs that make up a company.

Probably at that age I wanted to be a veterinarian, until I realized I would never be able to cope with losing patients.

psychbabe314

Texas also has other great ideas, like don't talk about sex... also why the teen pregnancy is so high there. Studies do show that by having a sex education class that discusses sex, you greatly reduce the risk of teen pregnancy, but Texas likes to ignore this :-)

I have nothing against Texas, but if the drop-out rate is what you are worried about, there are so many other ways to help!

doubleSS07

This is interesting, especially now living in Texas and about to start a family here. I think that offering more directed paths is a good idea but implementation will be a huge factor in how successful it is. When I was in HS, I had no real direction. I took classes because my counselor told me "take these classes, you are smart enough for them". I signed up for the SAT's like 2 weeks before because a counselor told me to, I applied to one state college because that's all my mother would pay for (luckily I managed to get accepted). I had no real dreams of college, no idea how to pay for it and like @Bethsmiles, I had SO many interests I never knew (and still don't) know that I want to do when I am a grown up and I'm almost 36. In college I never declared until I hit a max number of credits for undergrad and HAD to. I ended up with a BA in Criminal Justice with a focus in Sociology because I opened the catalogue and picked one where all the classes sounded interesting. I do NOTHING related to my degree now. I will say that I came from a BAD area in N.CA and the school staff was more worried about shootings and pregnancies than anything else so I'm sure to them I was a success story. Helping to guide students on a path (academic or vocational) or like another PP said giving them the opportunity to try different things prior to entering college, I think is a good idea. I also think that we desperately need real world issues taught like how to balance a checking account, how to use credit appropriately, why a 401K is SO important and the value of saving NOW and of course better sex education. These things were sorely lacking 20 years ago when I was in school and from the sounds of it, still are. ETA: The Knot ate my paragraphs

mbross3

Something similar is done in lots of European countries--where kids can pick an area to specialize in (partly based off of test scores though) when they enter high school and then go on to learn that trade instead of going to the traditional American college experience. 

I think it can work well, but I don't really trust Texas to do anything right. 

audrewuh

NEY should take over the Texas education system. I'd be okay with it. 

500days

mbross3 said:

Something similar is done in lots of European countries--where kids can pick an area to specialize in (partly based off of test scores though) when they enter high school and then go on to learn that trade instead of going to the traditional American college experience. 

I think it can work well, but I don't really trust Texas to do anything right. 

We try to mimic the methods and practices used in Europe, but our numbers are ginormous in comparison. It's like trying to use a small business model for a giant corporation.

audrewuh

@500days, are you in Texas too?

500days

@audrewuh, Not in Texas, sorry the way I worded the last post with "we" was more about the U.S. rather than Texas. I'm in New England in RI lol 

laceybird

I'm a 26-year-old college graduate, and I still have no idea what I want to do in life.

But I assure you it won't be anything relating to my degree. -_-;

audrewuh

@500days - I thought I knew all the Texans on the board! Hahaha. Yes, I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. It's a great analysis of what we're trying to do, but not doing well at all. 

thetimewillcome

I'm not sure how I feel about this being a law. I know when I was in high school (and younger) I wanted to be a lawyer, so that is probably the path that I would have chosen. However, when I was looking at colleges, one offered me a full academic scholarship....it was in engineering. 

I was always good at math and science, and it was hard to pass up a full academic scholarship considering I wouldn't have had the resources to pay for college without taking out loans. Choosing whatever career path under this program that would have gotten me into the legal field would definitely have been different than that which would have gotten me to engineering.

Incidentally, I was an engineer for 7 years. Now I'm an attorney, so I got back around to it.