officiant/religion FMIL issue

cambryn

My FMIL is wonderful, but very religious. She is a devout Catholic, and both her previous sons had Catholic priests officiate the weddings (even the son who is Episcopalian.)

My fiance doesn't care who officiates, as he is agnostic and never goes to church, other than when the family insists on it (holidays, christenings etc.)

I'm agnostic, but was raised Episcopalian, and have a few priests who did a lot for me when I was young. I'd love to know my officiant, and have it be someone who positively effected my life.

If I knew a Catholic priest, or my fiance knew one, who we were connected to, perhaps I'd consider having a Catholic priest- but we don't. I don't feel comfortable with a stranger up there bringing in religious aspects neither I or my fiance ascribe to.

FMIL asked if we'd have a Catholic priest- I told her probably not, and explained my close connection with the priests from my private school days. She seemed unhappy with this- and seems to think only Catholic priests are 'real' priests- but didn't press the matter.

 I respect her beliefs (as much as I can), but I'm not compromising on this. Neither her son or I are religious, and he has no connection to any Catholic priests.

Any advice from those of you who have gone through this? I don't want this to turn into a 'thing.' I love his mother dearly, and want things to continue as smoothly as they have.

mysticl

I'm pretty sure a Catholic priest would refuse to marry you since neither one of you is a practicing Catholic.  In which case it doesn't matter if she wants a priest to marry you.  

vulpiepop

There are things you can compromise and negotiate but there will be things that you don't want to compromise on, like this issue. I say, it's your wedding and you should do whatever will make you and your guests happiest. Maybe you can compromise in a different area like flowers or catering. Or maybe you can arrange it so you get married in a Catholic church but with your officiant? (Note: there may not be a church that will allow you to do that in your area but I know some churches will be flexible and let you do that. It never hurts to ask). 

cambryn

Perhaps I can choose a few prayers and have her give input on which to use in the ceremony?
There are some prayers that aren't really all that religious- general about love etc.

vulpiepop

cambryn said:

Perhaps I can choose a few prayers and have her give input on which to use in the ceremony?
There are some prayers that aren't really all that religious- general about love etc.

That sounds like a good compromise. Letting her in on some of the other planning aspects and asking input will probably make her feel better and helpful overall as well.

cambryn

lawhead said:

cambryn said:

Perhaps I can choose a few prayers and have her give input on which to use in the ceremony?
There are some prayers that aren't really all that religious- general about love etc.

That sounds like a good compromise. Letting her in on some of the other planning aspects and asking input will probably make her feel better and helpful overall as well.

I'm glad you think so! The ceremony and reception are both going to be at the family's ranch (FMIL's home) so I'm sure there will be plenty for her to contribute on!

CMGragain

No Catholic priest will be able to marry you if neither of you is a Catholic in good standing with the church - which your FI is not. 
No Catholic priest would be permitted to perform the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony outside of a Catholic church.  I am surprised your FMIL doesn't know this.
Tell FMIL that a Catholic ceremony isn't possible.

The reason that this is a big deal to your FMIL is that, in the eyes of the Catholic church, only Catholic marriages performed in a Catholic church by a Catholic priest are valid.  Your FI will not be able to practice the Catholic faith after he is married outside the church.  (No communion.)

cambryn

CMGragain said:

No Catholic priest will be able to marry you if neither of you is a Catholic in good standing with the church - which your FI is not. 
No Catholic priest would be permitted to perform the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony outside of a Catholic church.  I am surprised your FMIL doesn't know this.
Tell FMIL that a Catholic ceremony isn't possible.

I don't know if that was the case for her second son- he never goes to mass/confession- and converted to the Episcopal church- yet still had a Catholic priest officiate. Not sure how all that works, really.

My fiance is definitely not an acting Catholic- but I think his mom is in denial on that one. Not sure I should be the one to stir that particular pot- but will definitely discuss that with the FI later. Thank you for the information!

CMGragain

This is for your FI to handle.  He needs to tell his mother if he no longer wishes to be Catholic.  I think you should stay out of this one.  You don't want to be blamed for "leading him astray."
His brother was probably married in the Catholic church before converting. 
If you were to be married in the Catholic church, your FI would have the option to continue as a Catholic, but you would not have to convert.  You would have to take pre-cana classes with your FI before your marriage, and to agree "not to interfere" with your children being raised as Catholics. 
The Episcopal wedding ceremony is very similar in form to the Catholic ceremony.

melbenso

mysticl is right, in order to get married in the Catholic Church, at least one person has to be a practicing Catholic, and usually a member in good standing of the particular church the priest is at.  You also have to take special pre-marriage classes (pre-cana) and commit to raising your children Catholic.

FI and I were both raised Catholic, and neither of us considers ourselves Catholic now.   FI is a Unitarian Universalist and I am agnostic.  Both of our mothers are practicing Catholics, and neither one pressured us to have a wedding officiated by a priest.  Though they don't agree with all of our beliefs, they respect them.  We are having a UU minister friend of FI's officiate our wedding. 

If you wanted a "religious" person to officiate, you might want to contact your local Unitarian Church.  I'm not a UU, but as best as I can describe their philosophy of faith is that belief (or non-belief) in religious doctrine is a personal thing, but that certain principles of respect and kindness should guide us.  If you want a secular wedding officiant, there are plenty of options for that as well.

This is one of those "It's our wedding, so we get to" things.  Your FI should talk to his mom and gently tell her to butt out.

ElcaB

FI isn't religious at all. I'm Christian. 

When we were deciding who should officiate our wedding, we both agreed we wanted someone we know marrying us, so we decided to ask a very close friend. FMIL is very uncomfortable with our officiant being secular, but it's important to us to have someone we love helping us make our commitment to each other. 

Proceed however you want. Not everyone will be comfortable with the decisions you make pertaining to your wedding, but in the end you are the one getting married and you need to do what's best for you. 

HisGirlFriday13

PPs are correct. If neither of you is a practising Catholic, you cannot be married in the Roman Catholic Church. A priest cannot perform the Sacrament of Marriage outside a Catholic Church without VERY special circumstances and a dispensation from the bishop, which is very difficult to get.

To your FMIL, this is a Very Big Deal because getting married outside of the Church will put your FI out of Communion with the Church, meaning he cannot take the Sacraments anymore. This is a huge deal to Catholics. HUGE.

But, that's not your problem; that's your FMIL's problem. And it's your FI's problem, too, because he really needs to tell his mother, 'Mom, I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I don't consider myself Catholic anymore and cambryn and I will not be having a Catholic Mass wedding. I'm sorry, but those aren't our beliefs.'

If you're not anti-religion in general (and it sounds like you're not), you could offer to have readings from the Apocrypha, books Catholics believe are canonical that Protestants don't (such as the Book of Sirach).

But this is one of the few areas where you can legitimately say, 'I'm sorry you disagree, but this is our wedding, and we aren't interested in anyone else's opinion on this particular decision.'

I had the reverse problem of yours; DH's BSC grandmother didn't believe our Catholic Mass was 'real' or 'binding' and kept pushing me to allow her Lutheran minister to officiate. 

GL!

Maggie0829

Who you have marry you should be solely you and your FI choice.  And what is included in your ceremony should be solely you and your FI choice.  I am sorry, but just like no one but you and your FI should have a say in your wedding party, the same should be said for the ceremony.  This ceremony is for you and your FI.  The two of you are getting married.  No one else.  So pick the officiant that you both want and pick the prayers/readings/hymns/whatever that you both want.

I really have a major problem when parents try and persuade or influence the couples decision when it comes to how they are married and by who.

hyechica81

@CMGragain we are getting married in my church armenian orthodox ( christian ) we spoke to fi church deacon about his marriage being vaild and he said we could get married in a non catholic church. and the marriage would still be valid but we would have to have a special blessing service in the catholic church to make it valid, fi would still be able to receive sacraments in his church. also they told us only the catholic has to promises to raise the child catholic.

i am not sure how all catholic churches work but we asked him a lot of questions and the ones he was not sure of he got the correct info and got back to us.

Jen4948

Since you and your FI are not practicing Catholics, I don't think any Catholic priest would agree to officiate at your wedding, especially if you won't agree to raise your children as Catholics.

So your problem is that your FMIL needs to accept that.  Let her know that while you respect that she is a devout Catholic, you in turn need her to respect that you and your FI are not, and under those circumstances, it would not be appropriate for you to have a Catholic priest officiate.

Edited to add: Your FI should be the one to give her the message.  It is essential that he makes clear to her that you are standing as a team on this.

phira

Someone in a similar situation (Catholic family member was unhappy that the wedding wouldn't be Catholic) posted a thread a while back, and some of the comments from the thread really stuck with me.

Your wedding ceremony is not the time to cater to someone else's beliefs--just YOUR beliefs.

Simply Fated

I have a question that's slightly off-topic, but reading some made me think of it. What makes a person a practicing Catholic? Because my friends were married in a Catholic Church. She didn't go to church and was never baptized. He was baptized and only goes to church on Christmas and sometimes Easter. Maybe a day or two inbetween?

Anyway, I agree with pps that say the ceremony is something you and your fiance get to decide on and his mother does not. Luckily you and Fi are on the same page. At least, I think you are. He's ok with an Episcopalian officiant?

cambryn

Simply Fated said:

 Anyway, I agree with pps that say the ceremony is something you and your fiance get to decide on and his mother does not. Luckily you and Fi are on the same page. At least, I think you are. He's ok with an Episcopalian officiant?

Yes he is. He said he's fine with whomever, as he's not religious/devout and has no real preference. He also likes that it would be someone who actually had an impact on one of our lives.

HisGirlFriday13

Simply Fated said:

I have a question that's slightly off-topic, but reading some made me think of it. What makes a person a practicing Catholic? Because my friends were married in a Catholic Church. She didn't go to church and was never baptized. He was baptized and only goes to church on Christmas and sometimes Easter. Maybe a day or two inbetween? Anyway, I agree with pps that say the ceremony is something you and your fiance get to decide on and his mother does not. Luckily you and Fi are on the same page. At least, I think you are. He's ok with an Episcopalian officiant?

The Church defines a 'practising' Catholic as someone who has been baptised, received their First Holy Communion, has been confirmed, attends Mass regularly and partakes in the more common Sacraments (Confession and Eucharist).

There are seven sacraments: Baptism, First Holy Communion, Confirmation, Confession/Reconciliation, Holy Orders (priesthood/monkhood/conventhood), Holy Matrimony, and Last Rites/Extreme Unction. The first three I listed you only do once. Confession you can do as often as you want. Holy Orders and Holy Matrimony you only do once. Last Rites you can have whenever you're on the verge of death -- some people have it before surgery, JIC. 

You have to have done at least the first three and go to Mass regularly to be considered a 'practising' Catholic. Reconciliation you should do at least once a year, but preferably more often. The others have no bearing on being a practising Catholic UNLESS you have been married outside of the Church (in which case, no weekly communion for you), OR if you have been divorced.

Simply Fated

Oooh I'm learning new stuffs! What's the Eucharist?

Jen4948

Simply Fated said:

Oooh I'm learning new stuffs! What's the Eucharist?

That would be the Mass.

HisGirlFriday13

Jen4948 said:

Simply Fated said:

Oooh I'm learning new stuffs! What's the Eucharist?

That would be the Mass.

Actually....not quite.

The Mass is composed of the Liturgy of the Word (first reading, responsorial psalm, second reading, gospel acclamation, gospel reading) and then the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

The Eucharist is the host that the priest blesses; it's the Communion that Catholics take weekly. Confusingly, the word is sometimes used interchangeably with the entirety of Communion.

First Holy Communion is also sometimes called First Eucharist.

Simply Fated

Jen4948 said:

Simply Fated said:

Oooh I'm learning new stuffs! What's the Eucharist?

That would be the Mass.


o.0 Really? That simple? The Eucharist is mentioned all over the historical novel books I read (Philippa Gregory) and I never put two and two together. I thought it was, like, part of the mass or a specific type of mass. But it's just another word for Mass?

HisGirlFriday13

Simply Fated said:

Simply Fated said:

Oooh I'm learning new stuffs! What's the Eucharist?

That would be the Mass.

o.0 Really? That simple? The Eucharist is mentioned all over the historical novel books I read (Philippa Gregory) and I never put two and two together. I thought it was, like, part of the mass or a specific type of mass. But it's just another word for Mass?

No, it's not. See my answer above.

jalyndani

Jen4948 said:

Since you and your FI are not practicing Catholics, I don't think any Catholic priest would agree to officiate at your wedding, especially if you won't agree to raise your children as Catholics.

This. 

Also, all of the Catholic churches in my community require that all sorts of pre-marital counseling, weekend retreats, and adult religious education courses be fulfilled before the Sacrament of Marriage can take place in the church. 

My particular parish has an 11-page PDF document of all the rules/guidelines that must be followed in order for a wedding to take place at our church. In addition to the agreement that any children resulting from said marriage will be raised Catholic, there's also the requirements that 

a) at least one member of the couple is a practicing Catholic 

b) at least one member of the couple is a member of the parish. 

c) the Catholic individual must have certificates of Baptism, Communion, and Confirmation on file.

We don't just let anyone stroll into the joint to get hitched. If your FMIL is such a devout Catholic, I'm surprised she isn't aware of all these. Or she's just assuming that you will "assimilate" into her son's religion- that he apparently doesn't even practice anymore. 

My parents were initially upset that FI & I aren't getting married in the Catholic Church at first, but FI isn't a practicing anything and I know he isn't comfortable in my church. However, our venue is a beautiful outdoor chapel setting, and we're incorporating Bible Scripture readings in our ceremony. We wanted the event to be Christian yet non-denominational since our families run the gamut of religious beliefs. 

Don't be afraid to compromise, but don't let your beliefs be ignored either. Good luck, and stand tall! 

phira

Learning!

MuppetOverlord

Plan the ceremony that you want together. This is your wedding and it should have the meaning that you want it to have.

With that said, my friends who are athiest, were married outside of a church, but allowed her father to select the officiant, whom they knew would be from the church. He selected a monk who performed the most beautiful, meaningful ceremony that I have ever witnessed (and I am Athiest as well) and even thinking about it makes me tear up. They did not have to go to any classes and were very grateful to have had him officiate. They took from the ceremony what was meaningful to them. 

She lost a child 2 years ago and they asked the monk to preside over the burial as well because she felt he had connected their lives.

So just food for thought. I do agree that if your MIL chooses to press, your fiance has to have a discussion with her about his views on religion.

Jen4948

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Jen4948 said:

Simply Fated said:

Oooh I'm learning new stuffs! What's the Eucharist?

That would be the Mass.

Actually....not quite.

The Mass is composed of the Liturgy of the Word (first reading, responsorial psalm, second reading, gospel acclamation, gospel reading) and then the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

The Eucharist is the host that the priest blesses; it's the Communion that Catholics take weekly. Confusingly, the word is sometimes used interchangeably with the entirety of Communion.

First Holy Communion is also sometimes called First Eucharist.

Thanks for the clarification.

Simply Fated

phira said:

Learning!

This is the fun kind of learning that I like!

HisGirlFriday13

Simply Fated said:

Learning!

This is the fun kind of learning that I like!

Happy to help!

Jen4948

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Simply Fated said:

Learning!

This is the fun kind of learning that I like!

Happy to help!

I'm reminded of the Tom Lehrer song "The Vatican Rag" right now.