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Swazzle

Let's have some discussions today.

Scout Willis (daughter of Bruce and Demi) walked around NYC topless the other day to protest the nudity policy on Instagram. She had posted a picture of herself wearing a sweatshirt with a topless woman on it. IG flagged and removed the photo for violating their anti-nudity policy. Apparently, IG has also been flagging and removing photos of breast cancer survivors and of women breast-feeding. 

Why are women's nipples so obscene in this country? 

The comments on various news articles that I read were from outraged women claiming that if she wasn't rich, she'd be arrested. FALSE. It is legal for a woman to walk around topless in NYC.  

What say you?

luckya23

I think Instagram is allowed to have their own policies, and protesting a private company's policy is the ultimate in attention whoring.

I would guess a lot of it is that they probably can't knowingly host naked photos of children and has no way of knowing ages, so they go as far as they feel they need to cover their asses.

Swazzle

@Kelani23 - Why a double standard though? Men's breasts are allowed anywhere and everywhere, including Instagram. Why is it against their TOS for a woman to do the same thing? 

GoldenPenguin

I think people are far too oversensitive about topless women. I, personally, wouldn't go topless, simply because it would be a danger to everyone involved, but to those who can, more power to you! Maine has the same law, and it was this HUGE controversy a few years ago, because this huge group of women did a topless march. Maybe if everything wasn't made about sex in our society, we'd be better off.

In the same vein, one of my FB friends liked a post the other night about a family whose six-year-old is trans and they are raising him as a boy (he was born a girl). While the majority of the comments were supportive, there were those who were OUTRAGED that a six-year-old was "allowed" to "choose" their sexuality. Sorry, folks, but gender =/= sexual preference. It makes me livid. Some day I'll learn not to read comments.

luckya23

I guess it's just the way things are - I have never heard of a woman getting all worked up over a random shirtless man, but men are different beasts... they don't care what the boobs look like for the most part, just that they are exposed!

It's interesting that it isn't illegal to walk around shirtless though!  Does the same go for pants? 

GoldenPenguin

That's the double standard though - why are men's nipples NOT a symbol of sexuality, but a women's are? Technically, the reason for a women's nipples has nothing to do with sex - they're to feed a child. And why does nipple = BOOB. Many celebrities/etc. show everything BUT nipple, and get away with it. SOCIETY has made nipples = sex = we can't see women's boobs. 

Swazzle

@Kelani23 - To the best of my knowledge, genitals must be covered. But pants aren't actually required (as seen in the "No Pants Subway Ride"). 

My point is that WHY is this a thing? Obviously, women have always been expected to cover up but we have the same upper body parts as a man. So why aren't we entitled to the same rights as a man?

bethsmiles

It's possibly a legal issue for them and they are just trying to cover their bases by saying no boobs at all. I mean if someone under 18 is posting naked pictures of herself on instagram could they get in trouble? I have zero idea. But I think Instagram's policy is less making the problem and as it is a result of the problem.

We've sexualized breasts so much in our society and then we have huge groups of people who want to shame anything related to sex so breasts become shameful. And now we have a society full of people who can't handle seeing boobs. It's so ridiculous!

I was camping with some friends this weekend and I have no idea how we got on the topic of breastfeeding but we did. And I was horrified that even the other woman there was against woman breastfeeding in public and said it was "gross" WTF?!

GoldenPenguin

Kelani23 said:

I guess it's just the way things are - I have never heard of a woman getting all worked up over a random shirtless man, but men are different beasts... they don't care what the boobs look like for the most part, just that they are exposed!

It's interesting that it isn't illegal to walk around shirtless though!  Does the same go for pants? 

THIS is also part of the problem. Like, makes me see red. 

It says "Oh, we can't let women walk around topless because men can't control themselves around boobs." 

FUCK THAT.

luckya23

All that, I have no idea... Way outside my pay grade!

...but I still think Scout Willis is an AW! lol

bethsmiles

Kelani23 said:

I guess it's just the way things are - I have never heard of a woman getting all worked up over a random shirtless man, but men are different beasts... they don't care what the boobs look like for the most part, just that they are exposed!

It's interesting that it isn't illegal to walk around shirtless though!  Does the same go for pants? 

This shouldn't be less sexual than a woman posing with her shirt off. If men can't control themselves that's their problem. We shouldn't be making excuses for their behavior and blaming it on women.

ETA: GOD DAMN IT TK! WHY AREN'T MY PICTURES SHOWING?!

GoldenPenguin

Kelani23 said:

All that, I have no idea... Way outside my pay grade!

...but I still think Scout Willis is an AW! lol

You have a pay grade as a woman? 

You should 1. probably stop talking and 2. take a little looksie at #YesAllWomen and fucking EDUCATE YOURSELF. 

cu97tiger

GoldenPenguin said:

Kelani23 said:

I guess it's just the way things are - I have never heard of a woman getting all worked up over a random shirtless man, but men are different beasts... they don't care what the boobs look like for the most part, just that they are exposed!

It's interesting that it isn't illegal to walk around shirtless though!  Does the same go for pants? 

THIS is also part of the problem. Like, makes me see red. 

It says "Oh, we can't let women walk around topless because men can't control themselves around boobs." 

FUCK THAT.

The answer to @swazzle's question is bolded above. Women traditionally have not been 'allowed' to go topless because men are sexual beasts that can't control themselves and WE AS WOMEN ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR THOUGHTS.

The capitalized part above is dripping in sarcasm, btw.

Blue & White

Agh I just had this convo with my sister!  She was all "I don't think I'd breastfeed out in public, at least without a cover" and I'm like..."you're feeding your kid.  How is that shameful?  NOT feeding your kid would be a lot more shameful."

I think deep down I feel this is a stupid idea to shame women's bodies like this - for instance, I always comment if H is showing some nip.  Because if I whipped my shirt off after going on a run, I would probably like...be inviting sex or something.  He's just hot, lol. 

On a similar note, I read an article the other day about how dress codes are responsible for shaming women as well - I've never felt this way but I kinda get it...big boobied ladies have a way harder time covering up their cleavage than teeny tiny boob people like me.

On ANOTHER similar note, a wife of one of my retail coworkers gave me a talking to because I went to my locker while her husband went to the bathroom the other day (they're in the same room) and she said that it "looked bad for her husband."  I was like welllll thanks for letting me know there's an issue but inside I was like "please become a bit more secure with your relationship, crazyhead."  Obviously, I guess that I should pay attention so that things don't look bad for me, but really?  I'm married and a (good) teacher.  Having sex on the clock is the last thing on my mind.  Apparently this is not true for everyone.  To clarify, to BE a teacher, my background has to be freakin spotless.  Especially in the sex/harassment/discrimination fields.

phira

I think that if there are rules about toplessness, they need to apply to everyone. So if women (and here, I'm defining women as, "People who appear to be women") aren't allowed to be topless in an area, then men (and here, I'm defining men as, "People who appear to be men") shouldn't be allowed to be topless either.

And if men are allowed to be topless somewhere, then women should be allowed to be topless, too.

Blue & White

I understand that bras are a bit for support and not JUST for covering up, but...could the fact that we're covering up TWICE on a normal basis be some of this issue too?

Obviously I think it's stupid that there's a double standard...just throwing something out there.

Swazzle

Blue & White said:

Agh I just had this convo with my sister!  She was all "I don't think I'd breastfeed out in public, at least without a cover" and I'm like..."you're feeding your kid.  How is that shameful?  NOT feeding your kid would be a lot more shameful."

I think deep down I feel this is a stupid idea to shame women's bodies like this - for instance, I always comment if H is showing some nip.  Because if I whipped my shirt off after going on a run, I would probably like...be inviting sex or something.  He's just hot, lol. 

On a similar note, I read an article the other day about how dress codes are responsible for shaming women as well - I've never felt this way but I kinda get it...big boobied ladies have a way harder time covering up their cleavage than teeny tiny boob people like me.

On ANOTHER similar note, a wife of one of my retail coworkers gave me a talking to because I went to my locker while her husband went to the bathroom the other day (they're in the same room) and she said that it "looked bad for her husband."  I was like welllll thanks for letting me know there's an issue but inside I was like "please become a bit more secure with your relationship, crazyhead."  Obviously, I guess that I should pay attention so that things don't look bad for me, but really?  I'm married and a (good) teacher.  Having sex on the clock is the last thing on my mind.  Apparently this is not true for everyone.  To clarify, to BE a teacher, my background has to be freakin spotless.  Especially in the sex/harassment/discrimination fields.

Are you fucking kidding me? 

Yea, you handled that WAYYYYYYY better than I would have.

Blue & White

@swazzle I was fuming for the next two days...this is why I'm not working retail for life, obviously.

This is also part of the double standard problem: http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/29/tech/mobile/spiegel-snapchat-leaked-e-mails/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Swazzle

Blue & White said:

I understand that bras are a bit for support and not JUST for covering up, but...could the fact that we're covering up TWICE on a normal basis be some of this issue too?

Obviously I think it's stupid that there's a double standard...just throwing something out there.

A bra, for me, is solely for support when I'm in public. I don't enjoy my boobs sagging down to my waist unless I'm at home. It's a vanity thing, same reason I like to wear makeup when I go out.

I've gone topless on the beach several times (but not in quite a few years). It's fucking awesome. 

GoldenPenguin

Swazzle said:

Blue & White said:

I understand that bras are a bit for support and not JUST for covering up, but...could the fact that we're covering up TWICE on a normal basis be some of this issue too?

Obviously I think it's stupid that there's a double standard...just throwing something out there.

A bra, for me, is solely for support when I'm in public. I don't enjoy my boobs sagging down to my waist unless I'm at home. It's a vanity thing, same reason I like to wear makeup when I go out.

I've gone topless on the beach several times (but not in quite a few years). It's fucking awesome. 

@buddysmom80 - can we have topless pool day in two weeks?

eilis1228

I think there's a subconscious biological aspect to why the double standard exists. For women, breasts = nutrients for new life = fertility = sexuality. For men, pecs have no real biological purpose. A lot of sitcoms even point out how useless nipples are on men. 

That being said, the double standard is outrageous. If a man walks around shirtless in public, he may be seem as a bum or as less than the societal standard for successful, but if a woman walks around topless, she's slut shamed. 

A lot of this seems to be rooted in American Puritanism as well. In a lot of other countries, women baring their breasts is NBD. In America, it's the end of the world. 

Yeah, I'm a little all over the place with my thinking, but hopefully my points makes sense... 

Swazzle

GoldenPenguin said:

Swazzle said:

Blue & White said:

I understand that bras are a bit for support and not JUST for covering up, but...could the fact that we're covering up TWICE on a normal basis be some of this issue too?

Obviously I think it's stupid that there's a double standard...just throwing something out there.

A bra, for me, is solely for support when I'm in public. I don't enjoy my boobs sagging down to my waist unless I'm at home. It's a vanity thing, same reason I like to wear makeup when I go out.

I've gone topless on the beach several times (but not in quite a few years). It's fucking awesome. 

@buddysmom80 - can we have topless pool day in two weeks?

I wonder if Bat Girl XXX is topless?

phira

@weewittlewizabeth I think it makes sense. Biologically, some breasts are different than others; men's breasts (and they do have breasts--that's breast tissue!) and women's breasts develop differently after puberty. But at the same time, it's not a difference that somehow REQUIRES that women cover up because OMG BOOBS OBSCENE!

When I was little (like ... maybe 4 or 5), I went to a day camp with my brother. We wore bathing suits under our shirts and shorts. One morning, my mom forgot to pull my bathing suit all the way up (so I was kind of wearing it just like underwear), and when it was time to run around in the sprinkler, I pulled off my shirt and ... got yelled at by counselors, who explained that I couldn't run around without a shirt because I was a girl. I didn't understand why because besides having long hair and different bits down below, I looked the same as my brother.

And honestly, I still don't understand why. I was MAYBE 5 years old. I did not have boobs. But I was still not allowed to go topless.

Blue & White

@phira cause OBVIOUSLY girl nipples are evil.  Agggh.

phira

Blue & White said:

@phira cause OBVIOUSLY girl nipples are evil.  Agggh.

EVIL NIPPLES. Am imagining nipples making evil faces now. Day. Made.

buddysmom80

My FI has boobs, I have boobs, but I think it's lame that he can walk around topless and I can't. Granted if I ran, I'd give myself a black eye, but why are breasts such a big deal? Men make them seem like they're this sexual thing when in the end they're used for feeding if need be.

And yes @swazzle I'm sure there are some topless scenes in Batgirl XXX! LMAO X 1000000000000

phira

bethsmiles

@Phira - I love that cartoon!

doubleSS07

I haven't read all the responses all the way down but I totally have a "response" to Channing Tatum exposed from the waist up!  Just sayin

Blue & White

@doubleSS07 don't worry, I think that "response" is pretty natural!

eilis1228

Yeah I totally agree that pre-pubescent kids are all the same above the waist and there should be no issue with both boys and girls running around topless. I also remember being told from a very early age that my chest was considered one of my "private parts" and I should never show my "private parts" to anyone. I think the different biological functions of the breasts in adulthood are partially responsible for American culture double standards for men and women's breasts. 

@phira that cartoon is PERFECT!