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NWR: Justice Ginsberg weighs in

"Would the exemption…extend to employers with religiously grounded objections to blood transfusions (Jehovah's Witnesses); antidepressants (Scientologists); medications derived from pigs, including anesthesia, intravenous fluids, and pills coated with gelatin (certain Muslims, Jews, and Hindus); and vaccinations[?]…Not much help there for the lower courts bound by today's decision." (from the dissent to the Hobby Lobby decision)

Re: NWR: Justice Ginsberg weighs in

  • "Would the exemption…extend to employers with religiously grounded objections to blood transfusions (Jehovah's Witnesses); antidepressants (Scientologists); medications derived from pigs, including anesthesia, intravenous fluids, and pills coated with gelatin (certain Muslims, Jews, and Hindus); and vaccinations[?]…Not much help there for the lower courts bound by today's decision." (from the dissent to the Hobby Lobby decision)
    This is my concern.  I know right now people are saying if the employees want BC then can just pay for it out of pocket.  But some of these treatments/procedures are insanely expensive.  Due to a typo our insurance initially denied the claims for my son's 2 month and 4 month vaccinations, the bill came to almost $1000. Fortunately, they got the typo fixed and our share was $0 but I had moment there. 
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  • It going to be interesting to see how this plays out.\

    It doesn't seem like right now a lot of companies fall into the scope of the ruling.  I read that 85% of the companies provided BC before ObamaCare.  I doubt all 15% fall into religious reasons for not providing.  Like I said in another thread I worked for a place that didn't cover  BC.  They were not religious, just cheap.

    Because of that I think free market might coming into play here.  BC is largely thought of a "elective".  Now I took it for non-BC reasons, but it really is elective for some people. People may or may not give a lot of thought on covering the costs of BC to an employee for free.  Fact is there are other options for birth control.

      Now if a  company owned by say a JW, asks insurance companies to provide policies that do not include life saving producers like blood transfusions could become suicide for them.  They might lose a lot of good talent and customers as a result of the benefits they offer.  Vaccines too.   A company refusing to cover vaccines to  little babies of employees is likely not going to over too well.

     There comes a point where just because a company is allowed to do something doesn't meant it's the correct business decision.




    On another note, It also might be an indirect win for ObamaCare.  It's good argument for people to move to the exchanges so they will have full coverage.  Although having to pay for  BC would still be a lot cheaper option for some than go over to ObamaCare.  






    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
  • Ginsberg is a BAMF. 

    I've seen arguments that this will hurt Republicans and the pro-life movement in general, both because there will be public backlash, and also because the ruling is broad, it will set precedence for people of other religions to push for their own exemptions. 

    And, as a Christian, I fully believe that HL execs, when they die, will have to answer for this. Firstly for the pain and hardship they will cause their employees for not covering Plan B and IUDS. And secondly for going through this circus so they could avoid paying the fine. They could have not covered those items, and payed a fine for not providing adequate insurance. Instead, they valued MONEY over their "beliefs". 
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  • I totally agree. Where does this end? Why should a company get to decide the choices and actions of it's employees when they leave the building? Do I need to start asking what religion the company was founded upon to determine if I want to work there?  Will women have to wear head scarves if a traditional muslim man runs a business?  Can an employer exceed the fire code because Jesus believed in a congregation of people? Can women be denied health coverage if they have ever been on BC or ever had an abortion? Our employers do not get to tell us what we are not to do with our personal lives.  As a woman on bcp for severe endometriosis, it ticks me off.  What woman would want to deal with hormones in her body, if she didn't have to?  Before I was diagnosed, I was a OTC contraceptive person, all the way. But even if I used it for other purposes, I don't see how that is any of my employer's concern..
  • I totally agree. Where does this end? Why should a company get to decide the choices and actions of it's employees when they leave the building? Do I need to start asking what religion the company was founded upon to determine if I want to work there?  Will women have to wear head scarves if a traditional muslim man runs a business?  Can an employer exceed the fire code because Jesus believed in a congregation of people? Can women be denied health coverage if they have ever been on BC or ever had an abortion? Our employers do not get to tell us what we are not to do with our personal lives.  As a woman on bcp for severe endometriosis, it ticks me off.  What woman would want to deal with hormones in her body, if she didn't have to?  Before I was diagnosed, I was a OTC contraceptive person, all the way. But even if I used it for other purposes, I don't see how that is any of my employer's concern..
    The first bolded is a valid point, but makes me a bit nervous when it's brought up in this debate.  Yes, there are other medical, non-contraceptive reasons for BC.  But the point is that women have privacy in our medical decisions, including (and especially) for contraception.  I know this is not @themuffinman16's intent (and you explained later), but when I see this argument made on Facebook, it really just reinforces that contraception is wrong in some way.  "Look, I'm a good girl, I'm only on it for cysts/endometriosis/whatever!  You're hurting me too!"

    And to the second bolded, yes yes yes.
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    "I'm not a rude bitch.  I'm ten rude bitches in a large coat."

  • edited July 2014
    I have all of the premarital sex with my FI. Lol. I am 35 and getting married.  Nobody gets married at 14, anymore (like the Conservatives think). I would like to bring children into a much more stable environment than I was raised. To me, that is knowing I will have a committed relationship with their father for the rest of my life.
      All of my cousins had babies out of wedlock, before they were out of high school.  They were all told sex and BC were products of the devil. They still had sex, but didn't use the BC.  They were  all coerced into marrying their boyfriends. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM got divorced by the time they were 19.  How is that a good advertisement for the Conservative Christian Regime?  I believe in God, I don't believe in judging others. If it is something I wouldn't do... then I just don't do it. I have no business making decisions for people I know nothing about.
  • I totally agree. Where does this end? Why should a company get to decide the choices and actions of it's employees when they leave the building? Do I need to start asking what religion the company was founded upon to determine if I want to work there?  Will women have to wear head scarves if a traditional muslim man runs a business?  Can an employer exceed the fire code because Jesus believed in a congregation of people? Can women be denied health coverage if they have ever been on BC or ever had an abortion? Our employers do not get to tell us what we are not to do with our personal lives.  As a woman on bcp for severe endometriosis, it ticks me off.  What woman would want to deal with hormones in her body, if she didn't have to?  Before I was diagnosed, I was a OTC contraceptive person, all the way. But even if I used it for other purposes, I don't see how that is any of my employer's concern..
    The first bolded is a valid point, but makes me a bit nervous when it's brought up in this debate.  Yes, there are other medical, non-contraceptive reasons for BC.  But the point is that women have privacy in our medical decisions, including (and especially) for contraception.  I know this is not @themuffinman16's intent (and you explained later), but when I see this argument made on Facebook, it really just reinforces that contraception is wrong in some way.  "Look, I'm a good girl, I'm only on it for cysts/endometriosis/whatever!  You're hurting me too!"

    And to the second bolded, yes yes yes.
    I look at it as more along the lines of making the point that the employer doesn't know why it's being prescribed.  It could be because she doesn't want to get pregnant, or to prevent cancer, or to regulate cycles, or for cysts, or for whatever and the employer shouldn't automatically assume the person is trying to prevent pregnancy.  

    My mom and had an interesting conversation tonight. She doesn't think anyone should provide birth control because people just shouldn't have sex (my mother is a 72-year-old Puritan). She also thinks the government is exerting too much control over us and shouldn't tell us what to do. So I shifted the conversation to rear facing carseats and what the law says, what the AAP recommends, and what the NHTSA recommends. The laws allowing front facing at a much lower age/size than the recommendations. So my mom asked why people don't go with the recommendations.  I said because the law says they don't have to and many people believe that it if wasn't safe it wouldn't be the law.  So then she asked why it wasn't the law and I said because people think the government is exerting too much control over us and shouldn't tell us what to do.  

    Well this was kind of funny. I am watching my soap opera (General Hosptial) on the DVR. I'm a tad behind so it's Friday's episode but this exchange just happened:
    Levi: Maxi, corporations are not people
    Maxi: Levi, any idiot knows that
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  • kla728kla728 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Comment Name Dropper
    I love Justice Ginsburg.  I wish she had been able to talk some sense into her colleagues, although the fact that this decision was released on the last day of the Court's session definitely shows you that it was controversial within the SCOTUS.  What makes me most furious is that this terrible thing cannot be undone until another case comes before the Court that allows them to decide to correct their past mistakes.  The right case might not come along for years.

    I have to wonder if RBG will retire this year so that President Obama can nominate her replacement.  It would be a serious loss, but it is very risky for her to wait until the next administration.  

    Lots of heavy sighs today.
  • I totally agree. Where does this end? Why should a company get to decide the choices and actions of it's employees when they leave the building? Do I need to start asking what religion the company was founded upon to determine if I want to work there?  Will women have to wear head scarves if a traditional muslim man runs a business?  Can an employer exceed the fire code because Jesus believed in a congregation of people? Can women be denied health coverage if they have ever been on BC or ever had an abortion? Our employers do not get to tell us what we are not to do with our personal lives.  As a woman on bcp for severe endometriosis, it ticks me off.  What woman would want to deal with hormones in her body, if she didn't have to?  Before I was diagnosed, I was a OTC contraceptive person, all the way. But even if I used it for other purposes, I don't see how that is any of my employer's concern..
    The first bolded is a valid point, but makes me a bit nervous when it's brought up in this debate.  Yes, there are other medical, non-contraceptive reasons for BC.  But the point is that women have privacy in our medical decisions, including (and especially) for contraception.  I know this is not @themuffinman16's intent (and you explained later), but when I see this argument made on Facebook, it really just reinforces that contraception is wrong in some way.  "Look, I'm a good girl, I'm only on it for cysts/endometriosis/whatever!  You're hurting me too!"

    And to the second bolded, yes yes yes.
    You know what I've always found hilarious, in that I must laugh or I'll cry kinda way. People who get uppity about birth control and abortion access also get uppity about "welfare queens", people having children they can't afford or out of wedlock, teen pregnancy, etc. It never seems to occur to them that perhaps these things are interconnected and that maybe if people had better education and access to contraceptives, we'd have less families dependent on social safety nets.

    But no. it's all because of whores. Goddammit I wish I wasn't fasting so I could drink more wine.
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  • Every family member I have ever known who became pregnant as a teen had a religious mother that never taught them about sex. If there were ever a case for BCP it would have to be Bristol Palin.  She came from an uber-conservative family, and managed to become pregnant as a teenager all the same.  Not talking to your kids about sex and pretending like it doesn't exist doesn't work. Knowledge works, and letting every individual have the power over their own choices.
  • kla728 said:
    I love Justice Ginsburg.  I wish she had been able to talk some sense into her colleagues, although the fact that this decision was released on the last day of the Court's session definitely shows you that it was controversial within the SCOTUS.  What makes me most furious is that this terrible thing cannot be undone until another case comes before the Court that allows them to decide to correct their past mistakes.  The right case might not come along for years.

    I have to wonder if RBG will retire this year so that President Obama can nominate her replacement.  It would be a serious loss, but it is very risky for her to wait until the next administration.  

    Lots of heavy sighs today.
    I don't know.  I just live in a deluded world where she will live forever.  

    Honestly I fear for the next Democratic nominee.  I do support Obama over who else would have been elected both times, but he's been disappointing to a lot of liberals while simultaneously pissing off a lot of conservatives.  I think the next Democratic nominee will not have an easy time.  So I worry that if RBG waits until after Obama, we might get a 6-3 split and things will be worse than before.
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    "I'm not a rude bitch.  I'm ten rude bitches in a large coat."

  • chibiyui said:
    I totally agree. Where does this end? Why should a company get to decide the choices and actions of it's employees when they leave the building? Do I need to start asking what religion the company was founded upon to determine if I want to work there?  Will women have to wear head scarves if a traditional muslim man runs a business?  Can an employer exceed the fire code because Jesus believed in a congregation of people? Can women be denied health coverage if they have ever been on BC or ever had an abortion? Our employers do not get to tell us what we are not to do with our personal lives.  As a woman on bcp for severe endometriosis, it ticks me off.  What woman would want to deal with hormones in her body, if she didn't have to?  Before I was diagnosed, I was a OTC contraceptive person, all the way. But even if I used it for other purposes, I don't see how that is any of my employer's concern..
    The first bolded is a valid point, but makes me a bit nervous when it's brought up in this debate.  Yes, there are other medical, non-contraceptive reasons for BC.  But the point is that women have privacy in our medical decisions, including (and especially) for contraception.  I know this is not @themuffinman16's intent (and you explained later), but when I see this argument made on Facebook, it really just reinforces that contraception is wrong in some way.  "Look, I'm a good girl, I'm only on it for cysts/endometriosis/whatever!  You're hurting me too!"

    And to the second bolded, yes yes yes.
    You know what I've always found hilarious, in that I must laugh or I'll cry kinda way. People who get uppity about birth control and abortion access also get uppity about "welfare queens", people having children they can't afford or out of wedlock, teen pregnancy, etc. It never seems to occur to them that perhaps these things are interconnected and that maybe if people had better education and access to contraceptives, we'd have less families dependent on social safety nets.

    But no. it's all because of whores. Goddammit I wish I wasn't fasting so I could drink more wine.
    Thank you.  When I was talking to my mom she said she didn't want her tax money going to pay for birth control because people just should not have sex.  We were talking about Hobby Lobby not Medicaid but whatever. So I pointed out the financial side to her for a company. It is cheaper for a company to pay for birth control than it is for the company to pay for prenatal care, the delivery, and health care coverage for the child for the next 26 years.  
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  • chibiyui said:
    I totally agree. Where does this end? Why should a company get to decide the choices and actions of it's employees when they leave the building? Do I need to start asking what religion the company was founded upon to determine if I want to work there?  Will women have to wear head scarves if a traditional muslim man runs a business?  Can an employer exceed the fire code because Jesus believed in a congregation of people? Can women be denied health coverage if they have ever been on BC or ever had an abortion? Our employers do not get to tell us what we are not to do with our personal lives.  As a woman on bcp for severe endometriosis, it ticks me off.  What woman would want to deal with hormones in her body, if she didn't have to?  Before I was diagnosed, I was a OTC contraceptive person, all the way. But even if I used it for other purposes, I don't see how that is any of my employer's concern..
    The first bolded is a valid point, but makes me a bit nervous when it's brought up in this debate.  Yes, there are other medical, non-contraceptive reasons for BC.  But the point is that women have privacy in our medical decisions, including (and especially) for contraception.  I know this is not @themuffinman16's intent (and you explained later), but when I see this argument made on Facebook, it really just reinforces that contraception is wrong in some way.  "Look, I'm a good girl, I'm only on it for cysts/endometriosis/whatever!  You're hurting me too!"

    And to the second bolded, yes yes yes.
    You know what I've always found hilarious, in that I must laugh or I'll cry kinda way. People who get uppity about birth control and abortion access also get uppity about "welfare queens", people having children they can't afford or out of wedlock, teen pregnancy, etc. It never seems to occur to them that perhaps these things are interconnected and that maybe if people had better education and access to contraceptives, we'd have less families dependent on social safety nets.

    But no. it's all because of whores. Goddammit I wish I wasn't fasting so I could drink more wine.

    SITB:
    Agreed!  I've been saying this forever!  The people who don't want anyone talking to high schools students about birth control are the same ones who don't want those people to have access to abortions or government subsidized health care, housing or food.  Um.  You can't have it both ways.  You either pay up front for BCP (way, WAAAAY cheaper) or you pay for the outcome later.  And clearly, it's not mentioning BCP to high school students that makes them want to have sex.  It's raging hormones.  Always has been, always will be.
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