How do you address envelopes? My friend is offended

MadHops21

My friend made a post on FB today. What are your thoughts on addressing envelopes to married couples? Isn't it etiquette to address the couple by the male's name? Or am I just old fashion?

You know what I really can't stand?! When Steve* and I get mail and it's addressed: "Mr. and Mrs. Steve Smith." I'm sure gay couples have both of their names addressed, so why not straight? We are Mr. and Mrs. Steve AND Janice* Smith (or vice versa). So for future reference, to anyone sending us mail, PLEASE include my name too. I am NOT Mrs. Steve Smith. I'll save you all from a "feminist rant", but it's extremely offensive to me. I hope other women can understand where I'm coming from and strive for the same independence. Just because I took his last name, does not mean he "took" me. Oh, and to Steve's friends, don't let me catch you referring to me as "the wife" ... your punishment will be an hour long lecture ;P

*Changed names to protect

mysticl

You followed classic etiquette by using just the man's name.  With that being said it bothers me to refer to a person by something that is not their name so I addressed my invites to Mr. and Mrs. Lastname and did not use either person's first name.  

kns1988

I'm a huge feminist, but I fall in the camp of following traditional etiquette for addressing people unless I'm told otherwse. So for your friend, moving forward I would use "Mr. and Mrs. Steve and Janice Smith," but she can't expect people to use that as the default. Maybe the ways that married couples are addressed *should* evolve, but so far it hasn't. 

It's nothing to be hugely offended about; she should just advise people of what she prefers and move on. The rules have gotten more relaxed over time and I think they'll continue in that direction.

jacques27

http://www.emilypost.com/forms-of-address/titles/96-guide-to-addressing-correspondence

Is it technically correct and would I use it for very formal correspondence (i.e. an invitation to a black tie wedding)?  Yes.  If it was informal mail, I can see why it would ruffle feathers a little bit.  Or if she prefers Ms. and not Mrs. 

That said, her facebook rant makes her look hysterical and insecure, and that's even with me somewhat agreeing with the premise of not liking to be lumped in as Mr. and Mrs. His Name.  Can't say I'm really jumping at the chance to be friends with her.

MadHops21

@kns1988 I thought it was traditional etiquette, but I know more and more women are preferring to have their own names on the envelope. I haven't made any invitations yet (wedding is in 2016), but I was thinking of using first names just so I know everyone who is coming.

I'm no feminist, but I get so excited when I see name on a personalized mail! 

banana468

She's allowed to ask that people respect her request once it's made.

I don't think it makes sense to go on a tirade because people followed traditional etiquette.

kns1988

MadHops21  I'm not trying to get into an argument, but I hate when women say they're not feminists. If you believe a woman is equal to a man, then you are a feminist. 

You should know who is coming by how they fill out the response cards. You don't need to put both names of a married couple on the front of the envelope.

jerkyanne

As far as etiquette goes you were fine. But there are a lot of super feminists nowadays who are offended by that way of addressing. (though most of the people who would be offended that I know also wouldn't take their husband's last name)

crys-crys

We addressed our envelopes as Mrs Janet Smith and Mr Steve Smith because we wanted to buck tradition of the man being first or the only one named. The one complaint we got was someone upset we addressed it as Ms Jane Doe and Mr John Smith. The couple isn't married and she uses Doe on facebook. Somehow I was supposed to know we were supposed to called her Jane Smith.

mileybangerz

With an attitude like that, she's lucky anyone invites her to anything.

JCbride2015

kns1988 said:

MadHops21  I'm not trying to get into an argument, but I hate when women say they're not feminists. If you believe a woman is equal to a man, then you are a feminist. 

You should know who is coming by how they fill out the response cards. You don't need to put both names of a married couple on the front of the envelope.

This times a million.  Times a MILLION.

I feel the same way about the name thing, but it's still reality that this is the correct, traditional way to address a married couple.  So it's okay to make your preference known, but you can't really pitch a hissy fit because somebody followed etiquette in addressing your envelope.

What I find even more funny is that she doesn't want to be referred to as "the wife."  You got married-- you are his wife.  Why is the word wife offensive???

AddieCake

I just don't care enough about it to get worked up over it. As long as my name is spelled correctly, I don't care.

annathy03

Your friend is drastically overreacting.  I wrote out both first names on the invitation in spite of traditional etiquette (i.e. Mr and Mrs Janice and Steven Smith) because it's important to me to include both first names, but I don't get into a tizzy when H and I get an invitation addressed as Mrs and Mr Hisfirst Hislast.

RebeccaFlower

I feel like this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. No matter how we all address invites, someone is probably pissy about something.

kmmssg

I think she over reacted a bit but just tuck it away for the future.  I also consider myself a feminist but I really don't care if we get mail addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John Smith.  BUT...if you address mail to only me and it is addressed to Mrs. John Smith I am going to politely ask that  you refrain from doing that because my first name is not John.  That one ruffles my bloomers a bit.

mysticl

JCbride2015 said:

kns1988 said:

MadHops21  I'm not trying to get into an argument, but I hate when women say they're not feminists. If you believe a woman is equal to a man, then you are a feminist. 

You should know who is coming by how they fill out the response cards. You don't need to put both names of a married couple on the front of the envelope.

This times a million.  Times a MILLION.

I feel the same way about the name thing, but it's still reality that this is the correct, traditional way to address a married couple.  So it's okay to make your preference known, but you can't really pitch a hissy fit because somebody followed etiquette in addressing your envelope.

What I find even more funny is that she doesn't want to be referred to as "the wife."  You got married-- you are his wife.  Why is the word wife offensive???

It may be she offended by the term "the wife" as opposed to being called "Steve's wife".  The way some people say "the wife" can come across as offensive depending on the tone and context.  

scrunchythief

Since etiquette is generally about making people comfortable, and I know many women are uncomfortable with being addressed by their husband's first name, I wouldn't address anything like that without knowing that was her preference first (asking her, receiving return address labels that way).  

While I don't think a passive aggressive FB post is the way to go, I definitely understand being offended by this, as I would be myself.  DH and I even talked about that since I was taking his last name, he should take my first (i.e. Mr and Mrs Scrunchythief Hislastname).  But, the fact that that way is generally regarded as a joke and the reverse is called correct etiquette really rankles with me.  

OP, I don't think you were being malicious, but I'd recommend asking first in the future.

"The wife" comment can go either way.  I don't really see it as inappropriate when it's coming from someone not in the relationship.  If the couple uses words like that as terms of endearment that's fine.  But for someone outside the relationship to do that, it makes it sound like the person is just a wife, not a whole human being.  Why not just say "your wife"?  Then it's just a relational statement and not at all objectifying.

Mandafly84

Of all the things to get offended - really, truly offended - about, this would be pretty low on the list.  I'm proud to be Mrs. Husband Lastname, and I know that being addressed in that fashion on a mailing envelope in no way takes away from me as an individual.

novella1186

It sounds like this chick is crazy pants and she just wanted to get all uppity over something dumb. Yeah I find it a bit irritating to be referred to Mrs Guy's first and last name, but you gotta expect it. It's an envelope. Get over it. 

I always just address envelopes as "The Smiths" or "Mr and Mrs Smith" **or-- don't forget this one** "Dr and Mrs Smith" or "Mr and Dr Smith" Lol so much etiquette. I leave the first names out. Just more opportunity to spell something wrong. 

pinkshorts27

scrunchythief said:

Since etiquette is generally about making people comfortable, and I know many women are uncomfortable with being addressed by their husband's first name, I wouldn't address anything like that without knowing that was her preference first (asking her, receiving return address labels that way).  

While I don't think a passive aggressive FB post is the way to go, I definitely understand being offended by this, as I would be myself.  DH and I even talked about that since I was taking his last name, he should take my first (i.e. Mr and Mrs Scrunchythief Hislastname).  But, the fact that that way is generally regarded as a joke and the reverse is called correct etiquette really rankles with me.  

OP, I don't think you were being malicious, but I'd recommend asking first in the future.

"The wife" comment can go either way.  I don't really see it as inappropriate when it's coming from someone not in the relationship.  If the couple uses words like that as terms of endearment that's fine.  But for someone outside the relationship to do that, it makes it sound like the person is just a wife, not a whole human being.  Why not just say "your wife"?  Then it's just a relational statement and not at all objectifying.

I'm sorry, but I am not going to ask the 350 people on our guest list how they would prefer to be addressed. I will follow normal etiquette for addressing envelopes. If they prefer to be addressed differently then they can act like fucking adults and call me to let me know. Or they can fill out the damn RSVP how they want to be addressed and I will follow that for future mail correspondence. 

JCbride2015

mysticl said:

JCbride2015 said:

kns1988 said:

MadHops21  I'm not trying to get into an argument, but I hate when women say they're not feminists. If you believe a woman is equal to a man, then you are a feminist. 

You should know who is coming by how they fill out the response cards. You don't need to put both names of a married couple on the front of the envelope.

This times a million.  Times a MILLION.

I feel the same way about the name thing, but it's still reality that this is the correct, traditional way to address a married couple.  So it's okay to make your preference known, but you can't really pitch a hissy fit because somebody followed etiquette in addressing your envelope.

What I find even more funny is that she doesn't want to be referred to as "the wife."  You got married-- you are his wife.  Why is the word wife offensive???

It may be she offended by the term "the wife" as opposed to being called "Steve's wife".  The way some people say "the wife" can come across as offensive depending on the tone and context.  

Yeah, I guess if it's said in an annoyed tone it would bother me. Like, "I have to ask the wife for permission."  But that doesn't seem to come across in the OP.  And I'd be annoyed if somebody said my name with that same context, too.

scrunchythief

pinkshorts27 said:

scrunchythief said:

Since etiquette is generally about making people comfortable, and I know many women are uncomfortable with being addressed by their husband's first name, I wouldn't address anything like that without knowing that was her preference first (asking her, receiving return address labels that way).  

While I don't think a passive aggressive FB post is the way to go, I definitely understand being offended by this, as I would be myself.  DH and I even talked about that since I was taking his last name, he should take my first (i.e. Mr and Mrs Scrunchythief Hislastname).  But, the fact that that way is generally regarded as a joke and the reverse is called correct etiquette really rankles with me.  

OP, I don't think you were being malicious, but I'd recommend asking first in the future.

"The wife" comment can go either way.  I don't really see it as inappropriate when it's coming from someone not in the relationship.  If the couple uses words like that as terms of endearment that's fine.  But for someone outside the relationship to do that, it makes it sound like the person is just a wife, not a whole human being.  Why not just say "your wife"?  Then it's just a relational statement and not at all objectifying.

I'm sorry, but I am not going to ask the 350 people on our guest list how they would prefer to be addressed. I will follow normal etiquette for addressing envelopes. If they prefer to be addressed differently then they can act like fucking adults and call me to let me know. Or they can fill out the damn RSVP how they want to be addressed and I will follow that for future mail correspondence. 

l I didn't mean you had to in every instance, only if you use the custom of addressing a couple by the name of only one half of it.  You don't have to use a first name at all to address your invitations.  If you don't want to check, then just leave the first name off.  

Also, is this not an instance where holding onto this etiquette is not serving the community it's being used in?  Women are no longer legally and socially subsumed into their husband's identity.  Why should we continue to address our mail as if we are?

Jen4948

If you want to be John and Janice Smith, I don't see why you can't.  If you don't want to be Mrs. John Smith, I don't see why you have to.

But I do understand that traditional etiquette would address you as Mr. and Mrs. John Smith.  If that's not what you want, there are a number of options.  My own choice would be to lose the Mr. and Mrs. and just be John and Janice Smith.  My second alternative would be Ms. Janice Smith and Mr. John Smith.  (The "and" indicates that you are married; in this instance the woman's name would go first.)

I don't like "Mr. and Mrs. John and Janice Smith" because it separates the "Mrs." from the woman's name.

CMGragain

Most of you ladies do not remember the 1960's.  I was there.
Feminism was never meant to replace a rigid set of social rules with another, different set of rigid social rules.  Anyone who calls herself a feminist, and insists that there is only one way to address her, doesn't understand that.  Feminism is about giving us more choices than I had when I was young.

There are several proper ways to address social mail:

Mr. and Mrs. John Doe (traditional, and the default)
Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe 

Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe is NOT proper, because it separates the woman's name from her title, and separates the man's first name from his last.

Widows are traditionally addressed by their late husband's name, unless they prefer otherwise.
Mrs. John Doe.

Divorcees are addressed Ms. Jane Doe.  The traditional address was Mrs. Maiden name Doe, but that is seldom used these days.  You should avoid Mrs. Jane Doe, unless the lady insists that is what she wants to use.


For business mail to a woman, it is completely incorrect to use her husband's first name.  You address her as Ms. Jane Doe.

mysticl

CMGragain said:

Most of you ladies do not remember the 1960's.  I was there.
Feminism was never meant to replace a rigid set of social rules with another, different set of rigid social rules.  Anyone who calls herself a feminist, and insists that there is only one way to address her, doesn't understand that.  Feminism is about giving us more choices than I had when I was young.

There are several proper ways to address social mail:

Mr. and Mrs. John Doe (traditional, and the default)
Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe 

Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe is NOT proper, because it separates the woman's name from her title, and separates the man's first name from his last.

Widows are traditionally addressed by their late husband's name, unless they prefer otherwise.
Mrs. John Doe.

Divorcees are addressed Ms. Jane Doe.  The traditional address was Mrs. Maiden name Doe, but that is seldom used these days.  You should avoid Mrs. Jane Doe, unless the lady insists that is what she wants to use.


For business mail to a woman, it is completely incorrect to use her husband's first name.  You address her as Ms. Jane Doe.

Not all women take back their maiden name when they divorce.  Some don't want to have a different last name from their children, some don't want to pay the fee to have the court change it (that's why my cousin didn't change hers back), some don't want to go through the hassle of changing it everywhere again (that why DH's first wife kept his name), plus lots of other reasons.  

Nymeru

It sincerely bothers me to be addressed as Mrs. John Doe, and I don't consider myself to be some sort of rampant feminist.  While I wouldn't facebook rant about it, I would be thinking all sorts of negative thoughts in my head if I were to receive an invitation addressed that way.  I would also feel disrespected by my friends/family if they were to address anything sent to me in that way simply because they know I don't like having my name taken out of the equation.  Does this go against formal etiquette?  Yes.  Do I care?  No.  But that's just me.  I take it with good grace when it happens with mail sent by those who are 65+, but anyone else who knows me should know better. 

I appreciate that people all of a sudden seem to care more about etiquette when it comes to a wedding, but if you know me well enough to invite me to your wedding, you know I'll take it as a personal slight to be called Mrs. John Doe.  It feels so wrong--before you're married, you are a person deserving of your own first and last name, but after you're married you're just a Mrs. before your husband's name.  I don't like how it looks and I don't like how it feels--kind of tacked on like an afterthought.  I don't feel like I'm somehow less now that I'm married.  So why should the importance of my name be diminished now that I'm married?  To me, marriage is about adding to your life, not taking away.

This might sound like I'm all rage-y and not wanting the trappings of marriage, but really I'm just trying to express how my mind processes this.  My mind...it's a very convoluted place.

MadHops21

I have too many female friends that consider themselves as feminist and they are a bit radical on FB, hence why I said I wasn't. I guess I meant to say not like that, but I do see humans equal to each other. My friends give feminists a bad name.

While I haven't addressed any envelopes yet (wedding is in 2016), I will definitely keep her in mind when inviting her. We aren't super close anymore, but that really throw me a curve ball. 

CMGragain

Why feminism needed to happen:

I was told that the scholarships I applied for were for men only.
I was harassed at work, and told I was a poor sport if I didn't go along with it.
My guidance counselor insisted I should take short hand and typing because "that is what women do in the workplace."  (I refused.)
I was told my future job choices were teaching, nursing, or art.
A professor in college told me "Your singing resembles that of a hootchy-kootchy dancer in a strip tease parlor.  You should go home, get married, have babies, and leave the music department alone."  This was said publicly in front of 30 other people, mostly men.  Some called me "Bubbles" for the next three years.
Women and men students paid the same amount for dormatory housing, but men had unlimited food and maid service.  Women did not, and we had a midnight curfew.
There was no such thing as date rape, or rape counseling.
Abortion was not only a crime, it was a terrible risk to one's life.  The days of back street abortionists must stay in the past!

I think some of you young raging feminists need to think about what is really important.

scrunchythief

l I don't think anyone thinks that getting called by a different name is as big of a deal as outright discrimination.  But those ideas that it's ok to treat women differently come from somewhere, and they need to be addressed as well.  So while it's not the top of my list of things to be offended by, I see leaving it unaddressed as continuing the idea that a married woman has less social status than her husband.  And I never said I wouldn't address a woman that way if I knew that's what she wanted.  I have done so before and would again, but to assume it is risking offending someone on something as basic as their identity as a person.  

There's still plenty of sexism left out there that us millenials are experiencing.  I've personally been catcalled since I was 12, groped regularly in school (which was blatantly disregarded by the administration), and been told repeatedly that my worth is based on how much I "put out" for a man.  I had to pay double what a man my age would for health insurance, pre-Obama care. I have regularly the only or one of very few girls in my past STEM classes.  

I understand where being called the wrong name falls in this.  I just don't think that means it's not worth discussion.

mysticl

CMGragain said:

Why feminism needed to happen:

I was told that the scholarships I applied for were for men only.
I was harassed at work, and told I was a poor sport if I didn't go along with it.
My guidance counselor insisted I should take short hand and typing because "that is what women do in the workplace."  (I refused.)
I was told my future job choices were teaching, nursing, or art.
A professor in college told me "Your singing resembles that of a hootchy-kootchy dancer in a strip tease parlor.  You should go home, get married, have babies, and leave the music department alone."  This was said publicly in front of 30 other people, mostly men.  Some called me "Bubbles" for the next three years.
Women and men students paid the same amount for dormatory housing, but men had unlimited food and maid service.  Women did not, and we had a midnight curfew.
There was no such thing as date rape, or rape counseling.
Abortion was not only a crime, it was a terrible risk to one's life.  The days of back street abortionists must stay in the past!

I think some of you young raging feminists need to think about what is really important.

Let's not forget that until fairly recently it was not illegal for a man to rape his wife.  If you got married you did not have the right to decline sex with your husband. It was his right to take it whenever he wanted.  And even when it did become illegal it wasn't treated as severe of a crime as other rapes.  

scrunchythief

CMGragain said:

Most of you ladies do not remember the 1960's.  I was there.
Feminism was never meant to replace a rigid set of social rules with another, different set of rigid social rules.  Anyone who calls herself a feminist, and insists that there is only one way to address her, doesn't understand that.  Feminism is about giving us more choices than I had when I was young.

There are several proper ways to address social mail:

Mr. and Mrs. John Doe (traditional, and the default)
Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe 

Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe is NOT proper, because it separates the woman's name from her title, and separates the man's first name from his last.

Widows are traditionally addressed by their late husband's name, unless they prefer otherwise.
Mrs. John Doe.

Divorcees are addressed Ms. Jane Doe.  The traditional address was Mrs. Maiden name Doe, but that is seldom used these days.  You should avoid Mrs. Jane Doe, unless the lady insists that is what she wants to use.


For business mail to a woman, it is completely incorrect to use her husband's first name.  You address her as Ms. Jane Doe.

Sorry to go back to an addressing question, but do you happen to know why a man's name can be separated from his title (Mr. and Mrs. John Doe), but a woman's can't (Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe)?  I have no pressing need to know why, I'm just always curious of the whys behind things:)