What would you have done?

blabla89

Cookie Pusher said:

Ambulance rides are fucking expensive. Insurance, even if you have it, doesn't necessarily cover the entire cost (some companies not only charge the fee for the ride but also charge per mile to the hospital - and some will charge you a fee even if they never transport you anywhere). I would not presume to make such a large financial decision for someone who was seemingly coherent. I'd at least want to talk to a family member first before making medical decisions for someone who was conscious. I would be pissed as hell if someone did it to me.

This. I know my grandparents were very upset (and stressed about finances) when it happened to my grandfather.

I do think that one of the bystanders should have insisted on calling a family member to come and help your grandmother, though.

amelisha

I understand you're feeling really emotional about this - of course you are! - but I have to say that I understand why those people did what they did. Personally, I'd feel incredibly uncomfortable making a potentially very expensive medical decision for someone else if that person is coherent and telling me not to, even if he or she is in pain or unable to walk. I would offer any help I could give, offer to call family, etc. etc., but I don't think I would be willing to call an ambulance for someone who doesn't want me to do that if that person seems mentally able to make that decision. I don't necessarily think they handled it like they should have, but I also don't think calling an ambulance would have been the right thing to do if she was so adamantly against that.

theartistformerlyknownas

I found a lost dog in the street once. I didn't just pick it up, put it in a warm place, and hope for the best. I also didn't call Animal Control to take him, or the local news to find his family, or mount a large-scale search for his home. I called his family member from the number on his tag, and waited with him in my warm car until they got there. So while an ambulance may or may not have been overkill, especially looking at the situation outside the lens of raw emotions and fear, there's definitely an appropriate middle ground. If it can be done for a dog, it can be done for a person.

KatieinBkln

The second I realized she couldn't stand, I would have asked her who I could call. Personal autonomy and all that. I would certainly suggest that that call be made to an ambulance, especially if she didn't want me calling anyone else.

I know first aid, and one of the first rules is that you DO NOT move someone who has fallen. If they can't move themselves, that is a good sign that something is broken. I would have stayed until someone had come, made sure that someone grabbed a blanket or two to keep her warm (A. it's winter, and B. people can go into shock if they aren't kept warm).

In the event that the woman insisted that she didn't want me to call anyone, and asked me to pick her up and put her in her car, I would refuse, the ambulance would be called, and it would be on her to decline their services herself. The act of calling an ambulance is NOT "making a financial/medical decision" for someone--they are allowed to decline the service (if they are conscious/coherent). Ultimately, I would rather "be responsible" for someone being charged $2,000 than be responsible for their physical suffering (or, depending on complications, even death). That is a no-brainer to me.

However, I would definitely do everything I could to make sure I got permission/input from the person no matter what I did--it really seems like the biggest WTF moment here was that your grandmother's autonomy was compromised. 

ashley8918

KatieinBkln said:

The second I realized she couldn't stand, I would have asked her who I could call. Personal autonomy and all that. I would certainly suggest that that call be made to an ambulance, especially if she didn't want me calling anyone else.

I know first aid, and one of the first rules is that you DO NOT move someone who has fallen. If they can't move themselves, that is a good sign that something is broken. I would have stayed until someone had come, made sure that someone grabbed a blanket or two to keep her warm (A. it's winter, and B. people can go into shock if they aren't kept warm).

In the event that the woman insisted that she didn't want me to call anyone, and asked me to pick her up and put her in her car, I would refuse, the ambulance would be called, and it would be on her to decline their services herself. The act of calling an ambulance is NOT "making a financial/medical decision" for someone--they are allowed to decline the service (if they are conscious/coherent). Ultimately, I would rather "be responsible" for someone being charged $2,000 than be responsible for their physical suffering (or, depending on complications, even death). That is a no-brainer to me.

However, I would definitely do everything I could to make sure I got permission/input from the person no matter what I did--it really seems like the biggest WTF moment here was that your grandmother's autonomy was compromised. 

YES. All of this!

photokitty

lolo883 said:

I found a lost dog in the street once. I didn't just pick it up, put it in a warm place, and hope for the best. I also didn't call Animal Control to take him, or the local news to find his family, or mount a large-scale search for his home. I called his family member from the number on his tag, and waited with him in my warm car until they got there. So while an ambulance may or may not have been overkill, especially looking at the situation outside the lens of raw emotions and fear, there's definitely an appropriate middle ground. If it can be done for a dog, it can be done for a person.

A dog cannot tell you he's fine. He can't call an ambulance for himself. I find this to be a very offensive comparison, but realize you didn't mean it that way. You are suggesting an elder cannot determine what is best for themselves and they need you to decide. A person is not a lost dog who cannot speak for themselves.

Could the situation been handled better? Yes, one million times yes! Should you grandma have accepted the offer of help and not been stubborn and refuse help? Yes! Can we stop blaming the people who did what they could and be happy your grandma is being taken care of now?

Knowing what I know about our elders, and what you have said about your grandma, I believe she would have driven away before the ambulance arrived. While moving someone who has fallen is not ideal, leaving her on the snow and ice would have been worse. Once she was in the car it was only a matter of time before she drove off.

We don't know what these people did. They might have offered to call a family member. Should they have wrestled her phone from her purse to call your mom? They helped, not as fully as they could have, but be happy they helped. A true jerk would have just kept walking and minded their own business.

theartistformerlyknownas

photokitty said:

lolo883 said:

I found a lost dog in the street once. I didn't just pick it up, put it in a warm place, and hope for the best. I also didn't call Animal Control to take him, or the local news to find his family, or mount a large-scale search for his home. I called his family member from the number on his tag, and waited with him in my warm car until they got there. So while an ambulance may or may not have been overkill, especially looking at the situation outside the lens of raw emotions and fear, there's definitely an appropriate middle ground. If it can be done for a dog, it can be done for a person.

A dog cannot tell you he's fine. He can't call an ambulance for himself. I find this to be a very offensive comparison, but realize you didn't mean it that way. You are suggesting an elder cannot determine what is best for themselves and they need you to decide. A person is not a lost dog who cannot speak for themselves.

Could the situation been handled better? Yes, one million times yes! Should you grandma have accepted the offer of help and not been stubborn and refuse help? Yes! Can we stop blaming the people who did what they could and be happy your grandma is being taken care of now?

Knowing what I know about our elders, and what you have said about your grandma, I believe she would have driven away before the ambulance arrived. While moving someone who has fallen is not ideal, leaving her on the snow and ice would have been worse. Once she was in the car it was only a matter of time before she drove off.

We don't know what these people did. They might have offered to call a family member. Should they have wrestled her phone from her purse to call your mom? They helped, not as fully as they could have, but be happy they helped. A true jerk would have just kept walking and minded their own business.

I definitely didn't mean for it to be offensive, and I agree that these people weren't total jerks. I think they believed they did a good thing by helping her.

But I wouldn't take the word of a person who can't physically stand. I'd push a little harder. Maybe they did, but we're talking about a hypothetical "what would you do" scenario - I wasn't trying to judge specifically what those people did. So what *I* would personally do, is push a little harder, say "I really don't think you're ok; please, it's no imposition. Is there someone I can call for you? Do you have a Life Alert button we should push?" etc.

That dog didn't want to be helped either... as evidenced by him biting me. I just didn't take his little puppy word for it.

teddygirl9

Awe I hope she gets quick soon!

 

Personally, if it happened in Canada, most people would just call EMS - but our ambulance rides are like $150. We also get alot less cases of 'I was unconcious and needed CPR...but he broke my ribs, so I'm suing for my hospital costs' sort of thing. At least the strangers HELPED and didn't just avoid/walk away like some people I've seen.

VulgarGirl

I would have reminded her she had a life alert button and suggest we hit that and get some help on the line. If she was unconscious I would hit it for her.

Them suckers are big and I have this habit of looking for any kind of medical jewelry on people.

lauraukoctober2014

my mum was less than 60 and very fit when she broke hers. she was moving a house appliance slightly turned and fell right down smashing it very badly causing a full replacement. at first glance my mum and dad thought she had simply dead legged herself so possibly the strangers didn't realise it was this serious. Over here I would call an ambulance the person doesn't have to hand cash over here god bless the NHS if I was abroad and with a vehicle I'd have been very insistent to get her to hospital or at least get her as much help as possible

RebeccaB88

Once I realized she wasn't able to stand, I would have at least called the paramedics to check her out. I'd let her make the decision to take the ambulance or not. And I'd have tried really hard to talk her into going to the hospital and getting checked out, as well as offering to call a family member for her.  Had she been able to stand or walk on her own, I'd be much less likely to insist on calling the paramedics. But like PP said, she's free to refuse the services if she wants to.

As an aside...it was in the grocery store parking lot?  Did anyone think to involve management there?  Where I work, if someone falls anywhere on our property, it's up to our insurance company to cover the ambulance ride and treatment.  The manager handles the paperwork and takes the report.  The cost of her treatment might well be a moot point if that had happened. The store could well be liable for her injury. Plus, if the store hadn't plowed the parking lot, or attempted to...you know. 

When my grandmother fell in a grocery store parking lot and broke her hip, the store's insurance plus medicare covered 100% of her treatment, surgery, and rehab.  I'd call the store, they may have security cameras in the parking lot that caught the fall.  Not sure what they can do after the fact, especially if the witnesses didn't give their names (they might have given them to the store after she left), but it's worth talking to them and filing a report with them anyway.

climbingsingle

So more info. Apparently the grocery store manager came out and helped out her into her car. What I find shocking is that when I was 11, I fell in a grocery store and they demanded to call an ambulance. They refused to let me leave.

What I also find troubling is that they let her drive away. What if she passed out behind the wheel?

[Deleted User]

I called on a man in his late 50s / early 60s once when visiting family in AZ.  He fell and cracked his head open on a curb at a restaurant.  Dude cussed me out for doing it when he said he was fine.

I'm torn.  I know what I've done, but I might not do it next time because of him cussing me out like that.

theartistformerlyknownas

climbingwife said:

So more info. Apparently the grocery store manager came out and helped out her into her car. What I find shocking is that when I was 11, I fell in a grocery store and they demanded to call an ambulance. They refused to let me leave.

What I also find troubling is that they let her drive away. What if she passed out behind the wheel?

I find that really troubling too. That seems to be a lot of liability on the store's part. Maybe he wanted her off his property ASAP before anyone started thinking about suing for not maintaining the lot. 

Then again, my little sister was HIT BY A CAR while WORKING FOR THE GROCERY STORE. Not only did the person who hit her not stop except to ask if his truck was OK before he sped off, the store manager didn't let her go home. And when she had to miss work for a chiropractor appointment related to having been HIT BY A CAR, they fired her.

STARMOON44

I would not have called. I respect people when they tell me what's going on with them. You don't want me to call an ambulance and you seem mentally with it? Not calling. I think your anger here is misplaced. I'd be so furious if I told a bunch of strangers I was fine and instead of just helping me in my car they insisted on calling an ambulance. Grown ups, even elderly ones, get to make bad choices for themselves.

climbingsingle

lolo883 said:

climbingwife said:

So more info. Apparently the grocery store manager came out and helped out her into her car. What I find shocking is that when I was 11, I fell in a grocery store and they demanded to call an ambulance. They refused to let me leave.

What I also find troubling is that they let her drive away. What if she passed out behind the wheel?

I find that really troubling too. That seems to be a lot of liability on the store's part. Maybe he wanted her off his property ASAP before anyone started thinking about suing for not maintaining the lot. 

Then again, my little sister was HIT BY A CAR while WORKING FOR THE GROCERY STORE. Not only did the person who hit her not stop except to ask if his truck was OK before he sped off, the store manager didn't let her go home. And when she had to miss work for a chiropractor appointment related to having been HIT BY A CAR, they fired her.

That's freaking crazy!

climbingsingle

STARMOON44 said:

I would not have called. I respect people when they tell me what's going on with them. You don't want me to call an ambulance and you seem mentally with it? Not calling. I think your anger here is misplaced. I'd be so furious if I told a bunch of strangers I was fine and instead of just helping me in my car they insisted on calling an ambulance.

The point is she was not Ok. She shattered her hip.

theartistformerlyknownas

climbingwife said:

STARMOON44 said:

I would not have called. I respect people when they tell me what's going on with them. You don't want me to call an ambulance and you seem mentally with it? Not calling. I think your anger here is misplaced. I'd be so furious if I told a bunch of strangers I was fine and instead of just helping me in my car they insisted on calling an ambulance.

The point is she was not Ok. She shattered her hip.

hellosweetie1015

a

climbingwife said:

STARMOON44 said:

I would not have called. I respect people when they tell me what's going on with them. You don't want me to call an ambulance and you seem mentally with it? Not calling. I think your anger here is misplaced. I'd be so furious if I told a bunch of strangers I was fine and instead of just helping me in my car they insisted on calling an ambulance.

The point is she was not Ok. She shattered her hip.

But she said she was.

@lolo883 that is insane. Of course, it doesn't surprise me. My mom was fired when I was a little girl from a nationwide chain because she had to miss work to stay with me in the HOSPITAL. -.-

katiekessler123

I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother.  My grandmother is 90 years old, lives by herself, and I'm always afraid something like this will happen to her, too.  Anyway, I think what happened is horrible, but to be honest, in this lawsuit happy country that we live in, if someone specifically said NOT to call an ambulance, I probably wouldn't.   

KatieinBkln

STARMOON44 said:

I would not have called. I respect people when they tell me what's going on with them. You don't want me to call an ambulance and you seem mentally with it? Not calling. I think your anger here is misplaced. I'd be so furious if I told a bunch of strangers I was fine and instead of just helping me in my car they insisted on calling an ambulance. Grown ups, even elderly ones, get to make bad choices for themselves.

Sorry, if I have to lift you up off the ground in order to get you into said car, then it's too much liability on me. Of course adults have the right to make bad choices, but they don't have the right to expect me to make a (potentially bankrupting, morally suspect) choice in order to facilitate their bad choice. 

A lot of people seem to be missing the fact that, while good samaritans are usually protected by law, they still have a certain moral, ethical responsibility to at least try not to do further harm. Knowing what I know about moving injured people (easy rule: don't, unless moving them removes them from a greater danger, e.g., they've broken their hip in a pool and are underwater), I cannot in good conscience do so in the name of respecting someone's wishes. I'm not going to force anyone into an ambulance, either, but I firmly believe it's immoral to leave someone in a worse position than you found them. In this case, moving someone with a possible broken bone, and then putting her in a position to be alone/driving after a potentially dangerous accident? That's a worse position.

STARMOON44

KatieinBkln said:

STARMOON44 said:

I would not have called. I respect people when they tell me what's going on with them. You don't want me to call an ambulance and you seem mentally with it? Not calling. I think your anger here is misplaced. I'd be so furious if I told a bunch of strangers I was fine and instead of just helping me in my car they insisted on calling an ambulance. Grown ups, even elderly ones, get to make bad choices for themselves.

Sorry, if I have to lift you up off the ground in order to get you into said car, then it's too much liability on me. Of course adults have the right to make bad choices, but they don't have the right to expect me to make a (potentially bankrupting, morally suspect) choice in order to facilitate their bad choice. 

A lot of people seem to be missing the fact that, while good samaritans are usually protected by law, they still have a certain moral, ethical responsibility to at least try not to do further harm. Knowing what I know about moving injured people (easy rule: don't, unless moving them removes them from a greater danger, e.g., they've broken their hip in a pool and are underwater), I cannot in good conscience do so in the name of respecting someone's wishes. I'm not going to force anyone into an ambulance, either, but I firmly believe it's immoral to leave someone in a worse position than you found them. In this case, moving someone with a possible broken bone, and then putting her in a position to be alone/driving after a potentially dangerous accident? That's a worse position.

They're also adults. If they want to help her by putting her in her car like she asked, fine. If you personally aren't comfortable with that, fine.

They didn't know she had a broken hip. She told them not to call. To me this ends things.

STARMOON44

climbingwife said:

STARMOON44 said:

I would not have called. I respect people when they tell me what's going on with them. You don't want me to call an ambulance and you seem mentally with it? Not calling. I think your anger here is misplaced. I'd be so furious if I told a bunch of strangers I was fine and instead of just helping me in my car they insisted on calling an ambulance.

The point is she was not Ok. She shattered her hip.

And they're supposed to know that how? It's a shame that this is how things happened but I really think only the ice is to blame here.

KatieinBkln

STARMOON44 said:

KatieinBkln said:

STARMOON44 said:

I would not have called. I respect people when they tell me what's going on with them. You don't want me to call an ambulance and you seem mentally with it? Not calling. I think your anger here is misplaced. I'd be so furious if I told a bunch of strangers I was fine and instead of just helping me in my car they insisted on calling an ambulance. Grown ups, even elderly ones, get to make bad choices for themselves.

Sorry, if I have to lift you up off the ground in order to get you into said car, then it's too much liability on me. Of course adults have the right to make bad choices, but they don't have the right to expect me to make a (potentially bankrupting, morally suspect) choice in order to facilitate their bad choice. 

A lot of people seem to be missing the fact that, while good samaritans are usually protected by law, they still have a certain moral, ethical responsibility to at least try not to do further harm. Knowing what I know about moving injured people (easy rule: don't, unless moving them removes them from a greater danger, e.g., they've broken their hip in a pool and are underwater), I cannot in good conscience do so in the name of respecting someone's wishes. I'm not going to force anyone into an ambulance, either, but I firmly believe it's immoral to leave someone in a worse position than you found them. In this case, moving someone with a possible broken bone, and then putting her in a position to be alone/driving after a potentially dangerous accident? That's a worse position.

They're also adults. If they want to help her by putting her in her car like she asked, fine. If you personally aren't comfortable with that, fine.

They didn't know she had a broken hip. She told them not to call. To me this ends things.

You don't have to be able to diagnose a broken hip. That would indeed be too high an expectation. But a person who cannot physically pick herself up off the ground needs help that I, as a lay person, cannot give. I can understand a person trying to help move her out of good intentions, but it's still dangerous and frankly displays a lack of common sense that is astounding.

Out of curiosity, if she had told you under no circumstances to call anyone, would you have just left her lying there? Is that where "things end"?

sarahufl

RebeccaB88 said:

Once I realized she wasn't able to stand, I would have at least called the paramedics to check her out. I'd let her make the decision to take the ambulance or not. And I'd have tried really hard to talk her into going to the hospital and getting checked out, as well as offering to call a family member for her.  Had she been able to stand or walk on her own, I'd be much less likely to insist on calling the paramedics. But like PP said, she's free to refuse the services if she wants to.

As an aside...it was in the grocery store parking lot?  Did anyone think to involve management there?  Where I work, if someone falls anywhere on our property, it's up to our insurance company to cover the ambulance ride and treatment.  The manager handles the paperwork and takes the report.  The cost of her treatment might well be a moot point if that had happened. The store could well be liable for her injury. Plus, if the store hadn't plowed the parking lot, or attempted to...you know. 

When my grandmother fell in a grocery store parking lot and broke her hip, the store's insurance plus medicare covered 100% of her treatment, surgery, and rehab.  I'd call the store, they may have security cameras in the parking lot that caught the fall.  Not sure what they can do after the fact, especially if the witnesses didn't give their names (they might have given them to the store after she left), but it's worth talking to them and filing a report with them anyway.

this is actually a GREAT point that I had not thought of.

The grocery store should be responsible for removal of snow and ice on their property. I happened to bust my ass, HARD, this morning on my own driveway. That was my bad- I should've shoveled better, but I was being lazy and the shit froze.

But a grocery store should have staff devoted to proper removal of snow and ice.

STARMOON44

If she had told me not to pick her up and not to call ambulance and that she insisted on just laying on the ice to die, yeah, I would have called 911. That's not what happened.

My mother always needs to be helped up after falls. She's fine. She doesn't need an ambulance. She doesn't need medical attention. She just needs a hand.

If you're not comfortable offering that kind of help by all means call 911. I'm not saying you have to help. But anger at people who tried to help by doing what they were asked to do? Nah. I'm not supporting that.

MadHops21

My mom slipped on black ice years ago while walking into work and an ambulance was called. He ended up with a broken arm and needed therapy later. 

Once my parents received the bill, they saw the ambulance ride cost over $2k. Now my mom wishes she just drove to the hospital herself instead of riding an ambulance. Or walked to the urgent care across the street. 

jenna8984

sorry, don't want to thread jack, this is the first time I have seen @magicink 's baby siggy and just wanted to say congrats!!!

climbingsingle

I'm sorry but I don't feel my judgment of these people is harsh. They should not have moved her. They could have injured her more.
And when they did move her and she could neither stand nor walk, they shouldn't have let her drive away.

She is old and frail. They should have called 911 to let medically trained people determine if she was ok.

KatieinBkln

STARMOON44 said:

If she had told me not to pick her up and not to call ambulance and that she insisted on just laying on the ice to die, yeah, I would have called 911. That's not what happened.

My mother always needs to be helped up after falls. She's fine. She doesn't need an ambulance. She doesn't need medical attention. She just needs a hand.

If you're not comfortable offering that kind of help by all means call 911. I'm not saying you have to help. But anger at people who tried to help by doing what they were asked to do? Nah. I'm not supporting that.

Phew (Ok, so I got a little carried away).

Personally I'm not mad at the people--I think they probably did what they thought was right. (My personal "jury" is still out on the grocery store manager, who should probably be trained to handle these kinds of situations better).

I do think that there is a knowledge gap in the general population, though--people should have enough working knowledge of first aid to be able to ask someone, "ok, can you move it?" and then know what to do/what not to do if the answer is no.