Emma Sulkowicz aka Mattress Girl

FiancB

I don't feel like adding to the quote tree.

The point is, there are people out there who rape that don't really realize it's rape. Therefore, working harder to make sure they understand rape is teaching many people not to rape. It won't work on everyone, but I think it would on a lot, maybe even the majority. 

kkitkat79

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

redoryx

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

It's all part of the same conversation. I don't get what is so difficult to understand about that. 

bethsmiles

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

When the conversation is about rape, yes it is sort of the same thing. Teaching what it is and how not to do it really go hand in hand because so many people don't have a clear understanding of what rape is.

TrixieJess

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

One of the issues with rape across the board is consent and what is deemed rape. There are people who believe that it's okay to have sex with someone under the influence of alcohol and drugs who can barely stand, they don't understand that this is rape, the victim is unable to fully consent to what is happening. There are people who believe that because they are in a relationship that it is an open bar on sex and that your partner saying no, means yes, because we are in a relationship. 

Once we start teaching children, and yes we need to start teaching when children are young, about what rape is and what consent is, then we may see less of this behaviour. It won't stop EVERYONE, but it is a start.

novella1186

TrixieJess said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

One of the issues with rape across the board is consent and what is deemed rape. There are people who believe that it's okay to have sex with someone under the influence of alcohol and drugs who can barely stand, they don't understand that this is rape, the victim is unable to fully consent to what is happening. There are people who believe that because they are in a relationship that it is an open bar on sex and that your partner saying no, means yes, because we are in a relationship. 

Once we start teaching children, and yes we need to start teaching when children are young, about what rape is and what consent is, then we may see less of this behaviour. It won't stop EVERYONE, but it is a start.

This. For decades we've been taught that "no means no." Well, s/he didn't say no, because s/he was passed out. So that makes it ok.

FiancB

It's like, I didn't always know that gypsy was an offensive slur. Once I learned that it was, I stopped doing it, because I try not to do things that are racist or offensive, because I like to think I am a decent person. Or insert any choice of various other problematic words.

Meanwhile, our culture including movies and shows and phrases and all kinds of things teach everyone that it is okay to coerce someone into sex as long as you aren't physically holding them down for it, basically. If this is not corrected, people don't realize these things aren't okay, especially when they are so integral to our culture. I would like to think there are many decent men out there who have joked about getting a girl drunk or whatever that would be horrified to realize this is unacceptable and would not do that anymore. 

There are non-decent people that don't give a flying fuck about consent or about derogatory slurs. They know what rape is and they don't care. But they are sociopaths, not products of a patriarchal culture, and in the minority. 

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

They aren't two separate conversations. You don't go "Rape is sex without consent". And then just stop talking and let people figure out how they feel about it.

You say "Rape is sex without consent, and you should never have sex without getting consent from your partner".

I mean ideally more would go into rape education, but that's just a basic jumping off point.

southernbelle0915

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

kkitkat79

I apologize for going in circles, but I truly believe that the destinction between the two is so important. I don't think we are just arguing semantics here. When one says "oh, we should teach people not to rape" it implies that we know what rape is we just need to know how not to do it. A possible response to that is no, that is not possible because people who decide to rape will just rape. So nothing can be tought. However, when one says " we need to teach people what rape is" that opens up the possibility of providing information not known before. Words do have meaning, yes?

novella1186

I've said no to guys and have had them tell me that I really mean yes but I'm just saying no to "avoid looking like a slut." 

"No" is not a cute game I play. It's not being coy, it's not playing hard to get, it's not trying to shape a certain image for myself, it's NO. 

I think it's also problematic that yes = slut. So we say no for our own image but we mean yes? This is not a thing. 

There are simple facts to be learned. 

No = No. 

Yes =/= Slut. 

No =/= Maybe yes but I don't want to make myself look too easy 

The absence of the word No =/= Yes 

TrixieJess

kkitkat79 said:

I apologize for going in circles, but I truly believe that the destinction between the two is so important. I don't think we are just arguing semantics here. When one says "oh, we should teach people not to rape" it implies that we know what rape is we just need to know how not to do it. A possible response to that is no, that is not possible because people who decide to rape will just rape. So nothing can be tought. However, when one says " we need to teach people what rape is" that opens up the possibility of providing information not known before. Words do have meaning, yes?

I think the issue that some of us have is that those two statements are not mutually exclusive. We need people to understand the terms of what they are doing. Rapists aren't people hiding in the shadows waiting to pounce, most victims of rape know their attacker. 

We need to teach our children that gender is a social construct that they do not need to be bound to because that's what the media tells them. This is important. For example: boys play with trucks, girls play with dolls; if a boy plays with a doll, he is like a girl; if a girl plays with a truck, she is like a boy. Logically, there is nothing wrong with those arguments, but in my mind and in the minds of others, it should be, as long as my child is happy and quietly playing, who cares what they are playing with?

Once we get passed the social construct, then we can start teaching boys and girls what is acceptable behaviour, i.e. respect and consent in relationships.

These are the things that go hand in hand with teaching about rape, what it is and why you shouldn't do it. It's complicated, but this is how it will start to work.

redoryx

kkitkat79 said:

I apologize for going in circles, but I truly believe that the destinction between the two is so important. I don't think we are just arguing semantics here. When one says "oh, we should teach people not to rape" it implies that we know what rape is we just need to know how not to do it. A possible response to that is no, that is not possible because people who decide to rape will just rape. So nothing can be tought. However, when one says " we need to teach people what rape is" that opens up the possibility of providing information not known before. Words do have meaning, yes?

No, you really are just arguing semantics

• Don't continue if a person says no or stop. 
  
• Don't assume that just because a person gave you consent previously that means all future consent is implicit 
  
• Don't try to sleep with someone clearly under the influence of drugs or alcohol. 
  
• Yes, this includes even if they are saying yes 
• Yes, this also includes even if they said yes prior to taking drugs or alcohol 

There, I just taught you how to not to rape while also explaining what rape is 

[Deleted User]

.

FiancB

redoryx said:

kkitkat79 said:

I apologize for going in circles, but I truly believe that the destinction between the two is so important. I don't think we are just arguing semantics here. When one says "oh, we should teach people not to rape" it implies that we know what rape is we just need to know how not to do it. A possible response to that is no, that is not possible because people who decide to rape will just rape. So nothing can be tought. However, when one says " we need to teach people what rape is" that opens up the possibility of providing information not known before. Words do have meaning, yes?

No, you really are just arguing semantics

• Don't continue if a person says no or stop. 
  
• Don't assume that just because a person gave you consent previously that means all future consent is implicit 
  
• Don't try to sleep with someone clearly under the influence of drugs or alcohol. 
  
• Yes, this includes even if they are saying yes 
• Yes, this also includes even if they said yes prior to taking drugs or alcohol 

There, I just taught you how to not to rape while also explaining what rape is 

kkitkat79

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

I absolutely agree with that when it comes to children. And I absolutely agree that consent and what it means should be part of sex-ed. However, the original post referred to university students. I stand by my destinction. You cannot teach legally sane adults not to do wrong. All you can teach them is what the wrong is. And hope they make the right choices. So when one asks "how hard is it to teach not to rape"... I think in the context of op it is impossible and that is what I was referring to.

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

I absolutely agree with that when it comes to children. And I absolutely agree that consent and what it means should be part of sex-ed. However, the original post referred to university students. I stand by my destinction. You cannot teach legally sane adults not to do wrong. All you can teach them is what the wrong is. And hope they make the right choices. So when one asks "how hard is it to teach not to rape"... I think in the context of op it is impossible and that is what I was referring to.

You can absolutely teach adults not to do wrong. Where the fuck are you getting the idea that you can't teach an adult not to do wrong? Adults are capable of learning new things. An adult can think "well it's not rape if we're in a relationship" and then be taught that that is infact rape and should not be done. 

You don't just throw up your hands one someone turns 18 and go "Well fingers crossed they don't rape or kill anyone! Can't teach them anymore now!", my god. Do you think the human brain just shuts off once you're 18? That you can't learn anything new or different? That behavior can't be changed?

If that's the case then why try to rehabilitate any criminal? Just lock them all up and throw away the keys.

redoryx

kkitkat79 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

I absolutely agree with that when it comes to children. And I absolutely agree that consent and what it means should be part of sex-ed. However, the original post referred to university students. I stand by my destinction. You cannot teach legally sane adults not to do wrong. All you can teach them is what the wrong is. And hope they make the right choices. So when one asks "how hard is it to teach not to rape"... I think in the context of op it is impossible and that is what I was referring to.

Okay. I think maybe I'm starting to sort of understand your position.

Maybe. 

No, we cannot stop a legally sane adult from making a bad choice. But we can educate them on what those bad choices look like. That's what we mean when we say "teach." 

beachyone15

redoryx said:

kkitkat79 said:

I apologize for going in circles, but I truly believe that the destinction between the two is so important. I don't think we are just arguing semantics here. When one says "oh, we should teach people not to rape" it implies that we know what rape is we just need to know how not to do it. A possible response to that is no, that is not possible because people who decide to rape will just rape. So nothing can be tought. However, when one says " we need to teach people what rape is" that opens up the possibility of providing information not known before. Words do have meaning, yes?

No, you really are just arguing semantics

• Don't continue if a person says no or stop. 
  
• Don't assume that just because a person gave you consent previously that means all future consent is implicit 
  
• Don't try to sleep with someone clearly under the influence of drugs or alcohol. 
  
• Yes, this includes even if they are saying yes 
• Yes, this also includes even if they said yes prior to taking drugs or alcohol 

There, I just taught you how to not to rape while also explaining what rape is 

This thread has really opened my eyes. The bolded actually happened to me. With my first boyfriend. We had been together for 3 years and had NEVER slept together. I always knew it felt wrong because at the time, no I didn't want to sleep with him even though I said ok. He knew after 3 years of me saying "no I'm not ready" but ignored it. I never really thought of it as rape but looking back, I was coerced to do something we both knew I didn't want to do.

So if I, as a full grown adult, am just now beginning to understand what happened to me, that just goes to show you how much more education on rape culture is needed.

relliotts

kkitkat79 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

I absolutely agree with that when it comes to children. And I absolutely agree that consent and what it means should be part of sex-ed. However, the original post referred to university students. I stand by my destinction. You cannot teach legally sane adults not to do wrong. All you can teach them is what the wrong is. And hope they make the right choices. So when one asks "how hard is it to teach not to rape"... I think in the context of op it is impossible and that is what I was referring to.

***************************************************************************************************************

I feel like you are caught up in what other PP's have been talking about - that rape has, historically, been understood as something a bad stranger in a dark alley does. If we are talking about the old archetypical villain who does evil for evil's sake, or because they are a "bad" person, then you are correct - we probably can not teach them not to rape.

But this issue is bigger than that. Our historical definition/culturally accepted understanding of rape is wrong. Rape doesn't only happen in dark alleys or during a home invasion, and it is not only perpetrated by big bad scary criminals. Rape happens between friends, between lovers. It happens in contexts that have in the past been portrayed as acceptable (how many 70's/80's even 90's teen movies have you seen where there is a party scene that includes an obviously drunk character being carried off to a bedroom by someone? And out of those, how often was this portrayed as a bad thing? Not often). What many of us are saying is that people commit and endure acts of rape every day without necessarily understanding that they are acts of rape. You can tell people "don't rape" all you want, but if they aren't aware that what they are doing/condoning is technically rape they won't stop doing it.  An essential part of teaching people not to rape is teaching them that rape does not necessarily look/feel/sound like what they have always been taught it looks/feels/sounds like. And as of now this does have to happen in adulthood, because those incorrect messages have been hammered in to the brains of people who are now in their 20's and 30's from the time they were adolescents.

beachyone15

relliotts said:

kkitkat79 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

I absolutely agree with that when it comes to children. And I absolutely agree that consent and what it means should be part of sex-ed. However, the original post referred to university students. I stand by my destinction. You cannot teach legally sane adults not to do wrong. All you can teach them is what the wrong is. And hope they make the right choices. So when one asks "how hard is it to teach not to rape"... I think in the context of op it is impossible and that is what I was referring to.

***************************************************************************************************************

I feel like you are caught up in what other PP's have been talking about - that rape has, historically, been understood as something a bad stranger in a dark alley does. If we are talking about the old archetypical villain who does evil for evil's sake, or because they are a "bad" person, then you are correct - we probably can not teach them not to rape.

But this issue is bigger than that. Our historical definition/culturally accepted understanding of rape is wrong. Rape doesn't only happen in dark alleys or during a home invasion, and it is not only perpetrated by big bad scary criminals. Rape happens between friends, between lovers. It happens in contexts that have in the past been portrayed as acceptable (how many 70's/80's even 90's teen movies have you seen where there is a party scene that includes an obviously drunk character being carried off to a bedroom by someone? And out of those, how often was this portrayed as a bad thing? Not often). What many of us are saying is that people commit and endure acts of rape every day without necessarily understanding that they are acts of rape. You can tell people "don't rape" all you want, but if they aren't aware that what they are doing/condoning is technically rape they won't stop doing it.  An essential part of teaching people not to rape is teaching them that rape does not necessarily look/feel/sound like what they have always been taught it looks/feels/sounds like. And as of now this does have to happen in adulthood, because those incorrect messages have been hammered in to the brains of people who are now in their 20's and 30's from the time they were adolescents.

QFT.

FiancB

I mean, I just learned that cracker is a racial slur equivalent to any other just the other day, and I'm 28. 

kkitkat79

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

I absolutely agree with that when it comes to children. And I absolutely agree that consent and what it means should be part of sex-ed. However, the original post referred to university students. I stand by my destinction. You cannot teach legally sane adults not to do wrong. All you can teach them is what the wrong is. And hope they make the right choices. So when one asks "how hard is it to teach not to rape"... I think in the context of op it is impossible and that is what I was referring to.

You can absolutely teach adults not to do wrong. Where the fuck are you getting the idea that you can't teach an adult not to do wrong? Adults are capable of learning new things. An adult can think "well it's not rape if we're in a relationship" and then be taught that that is infact rape and should not be done. 

You don't just throw up your hands one someone turns 18 and go "Well fingers crossed they don't rape or kill anyone! Can't teach them anymore now!", my god. Do you think the human brain just shuts off once you're 18? That you can't learn anything new or different? That behavior can't be changed?

If that's the case then why try to rehabilitate any criminal? Just lock them all up and throw away the keys.

So are you saying that in our society legally sane adults still my not know that one should not do something that is wrong? If that is the case, it is horrifying to me. That is something children are taught at like 2 years old, maybe earlier. Then you just teach them what is wrong and what is not.

kkitkat79

Something else that's been bothering me. What if both people are drunk?

redoryx

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

I absolutely agree with that when it comes to children. And I absolutely agree that consent and what it means should be part of sex-ed. However, the original post referred to university students. I stand by my destinction. You cannot teach legally sane adults not to do wrong. All you can teach them is what the wrong is. And hope they make the right choices. So when one asks "how hard is it to teach not to rape"... I think in the context of op it is impossible and that is what I was referring to.

You can absolutely teach adults not to do wrong. Where the fuck are you getting the idea that you can't teach an adult not to do wrong? Adults are capable of learning new things. An adult can think "well it's not rape if we're in a relationship" and then be taught that that is infact rape and should not be done. 

You don't just throw up your hands one someone turns 18 and go "Well fingers crossed they don't rape or kill anyone! Can't teach them anymore now!", my god. Do you think the human brain just shuts off once you're 18? That you can't learn anything new or different? That behavior can't be changed?

If that's the case then why try to rehabilitate any criminal? Just lock them all up and throw away the keys.

So are you saying that in our society legally sane adults still my not know that one should not do something that is wrong? If that is the case, it is horrifying to me. That is something children are taught at like 2 years old, maybe earlier. Then you just teach them what is wrong and what is not.

I swear to goddess, I'm, like, 75% sure we are arguing the exact same thing but I'm 100% sure I have no idea what the hell you are saying right now.

relliotts

kkitkat79 said:

Something else that's been bothering me. What if both people are drunk?

Then neither is legally capable of consenting.

relliotts

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

I absolutely agree with that when it comes to children. And I absolutely agree that consent and what it means should be part of sex-ed. However, the original post referred to university students. I stand by my destinction. You cannot teach legally sane adults not to do wrong. All you can teach them is what the wrong is. And hope they make the right choices. So when one asks "how hard is it to teach not to rape"... I think in the context of op it is impossible and that is what I was referring to.

You can absolutely teach adults not to do wrong. Where the fuck are you getting the idea that you can't teach an adult not to do wrong? Adults are capable of learning new things. An adult can think "well it's not rape if we're in a relationship" and then be taught that that is infact rape and should not be done. 

You don't just throw up your hands one someone turns 18 and go "Well fingers crossed they don't rape or kill anyone! Can't teach them anymore now!", my god. Do you think the human brain just shuts off once you're 18? That you can't learn anything new or different? That behavior can't be changed?

If that's the case then why try to rehabilitate any criminal? Just lock them all up and throw away the keys.

So are you saying that in our society legally sane adults still my not know that one should not do something that is wrong? If that is the case, it is horrifying to me. That is something children are taught at like 2 years old, maybe earlier. Then you just teach them what is wrong and what is not.

No. We are saying that many legally sane adults may not understand that the particular iteration of sexual behavior that they are engaging in is rape, because they have been taught from a very early age that rape looks a very specific way that does not conform to the act they are engaging in.

VulgarGirl

FiancB said:

I mean, I just learned that cracker is a racial slur equivalent to any other just the other day, and I'm 28. 

There is no way you could have learned that information. You are an adult.

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

MagicInk said:

kkitkat79 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

kkitkat79 said:

So teaching what something is and teaching not to do or do something is the same thing?

I think I know what you're saying that saying "here is the definition of rape" is different from saying "rape is bad and you shouldn't rape". 

But I think the logical context the education would be "rape is wrong so you should know what it is to ensure it doesn't happen." So see how it encompasses both? 

I absolutely agree with that when it comes to children. And I absolutely agree that consent and what it means should be part of sex-ed. However, the original post referred to university students. I stand by my destinction. You cannot teach legally sane adults not to do wrong. All you can teach them is what the wrong is. And hope they make the right choices. So when one asks "how hard is it to teach not to rape"... I think in the context of op it is impossible and that is what I was referring to.

You can absolutely teach adults not to do wrong. Where the fuck are you getting the idea that you can't teach an adult not to do wrong? Adults are capable of learning new things. An adult can think "well it's not rape if we're in a relationship" and then be taught that that is infact rape and should not be done. 

You don't just throw up your hands one someone turns 18 and go "Well fingers crossed they don't rape or kill anyone! Can't teach them anymore now!", my god. Do you think the human brain just shuts off once you're 18? That you can't learn anything new or different? That behavior can't be changed?

If that's the case then why try to rehabilitate any criminal? Just lock them all up and throw away the keys.

So are you saying that in our society legally sane adults still my not know that one should not do something that is wrong? If that is the case, it is horrifying to me. That is something children are taught at like 2 years old, maybe earlier. Then you just teach them what is wrong and what is not.

Ok, I'm gonna need you to focus real good here cause we're going round in circles and I'm getting dizzy.

Not everyone understand what rape is. They were raised with the idea that rape is a stranger coming up to a dark alley, putting a knife against your throat, ripping off your underwear and fucking you while you scream no. Now that is one kind of rape. And that is the kind 99% of people will say is absolutely wrong.

But that rape is not actually the most frequently committed rape. A staggering number of people think "if they were drunk" or "well she flirted" or "hey they're married" are excuses to rape. We need to educate that that is also rape. And that that rape is just as wrong and should be committed as any other kind of rape. 

Are we crystal fucking clear yet? Cause at this point I don't know how else to explain it to you and maybe you are right. Adults can't learn.

VulgarGirl

kkitkat79 said:

Something else that's been bothering me. What if both people are drunk?

Then no one fucks.