How to politely say...

monkeysip

TheCheeseWench said:

STARMOON44 said:

No one knows if the OP's friend could make time for her without her son. The OP never asked, she just assumed her friend wouldn't bring her son. That's a dangerous assumption to make.

No, it's rude to assume that people who weren't invited to something are welcome. If you need to bring your child, you ask if that is okay.

Agree to disagree. I would never dream of assuming that a mom with a small child at home would get a sitter just for lunch. Maybe that's just me.

Totally disagree. I have a childhood friend (L) who has 4 kids. A bunch of us who have known each other since middle/HS agreed to meet for brunch. We don't see each other as often as we'd like, but that's just life. We get to the totally packed brunchy restaurant and L shows up with her 9 month old in his car carrier. Not only was it a big deal for the completely booked restaurant to find an extra chair to sit his carrier on, there was no room at our table for it. The kid cried much of the time so the rest of us just got to watch her try to quiet him down. She didn't warn any of us that our girly mimosa time was going to involve a squalling child and a diaper blowout (which required her to occupy the single-room ladies restroom for 15 minutes while a line formed outside the door). It was neither the time nor the place to just assume your kid was invited. Neither of them have been invited to subsequent brunches.

*BOX*

I think your attitude towards your friend is pretty callous here.  Should she have asked if her baby should come?  YES.  I'm not disagreeing.  But your post is dripping with hostility towards the baby, and a lack of sympathy for the difficulty of being a mother.

I hate to go here, but becoming a mother has been the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.  And I've dealt with a lot of difficult s***.  It's hard enough feeling like you're chained to the freaking house all day, and that society is not baby-friendly, without having friends who are judging you and complaining about your baby's poopy diaper and the fact that you have to spend a lot of time in the restroom taking care of it.  

In general, I really dislike society's hostility towards children.  I'm not even a kid person.  I don't love kids.  But I also realize that children are a necessary and important part of society, and that with the beauty and significance of children comes things like NOISE, and MESS, and POOP.  

I'm not saying your friend should bring the child to every single social outing, BUT if we could chill out a little bit and adopt a little bit more of "it takes a village" to raise a child instead of the "Eww... crying poopy baby" attitude, maybe moms would deal with a lot less anxiety and depression, and maybe kids could be raised better.

Sorry, vent over.  I just didn't like the general attitude of this post.

themosthappy91

monkeysip said:

TheCheeseWench said:

STARMOON44 said:

No one knows if the OP's friend could make time for her without her son. The OP never asked, she just assumed her friend wouldn't bring her son. That's a dangerous assumption to make.

No, it's rude to assume that people who weren't invited to something are welcome. If you need to bring your child, you ask if that is okay.

Agree to disagree. I would never dream of assuming that a mom with a small child at home would get a sitter just for lunch. Maybe that's just me.

Totally disagree. I have a childhood friend (L) who has 4 kids. A bunch of us who have known each other since middle/HS agreed to meet for brunch. We don't see each other as often as we'd like, but that's just life. We get to the totally packed brunchy restaurant and L shows up with her 9 month old in his car carrier. Not only was it a big deal for the completely booked restaurant to find an extra chair to sit his carrier on, there was no room at our table for it. The kid cried much of the time so the rest of us just got to watch her try to quiet him down. She didn't warn any of us that our girly mimosa time was going to involve a squalling child and a diaper blowout (which required her to occupy the single-room ladies restroom for 15 minutes while a line formed outside the door). It was neither the time nor the place to just assume your kid was invited. Neither of them have been invited to subsequent brunches.

*BOX*

I think your attitude towards your friend is pretty callous here.  Should she have asked if her baby should come?  YES.  I'm not disagreeing.  But your post is dripping with hostility towards the baby, and a lack of sympathy for the difficulty of being a mother.

I hate to go here, but becoming a mother has been the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.  And I've dealt with a lot of difficult s***.  It's hard enough feeling like you're chained to the freaking house all day, and that society is not baby-friendly, without having friends who are judging you and complaining about your baby's poopy diaper and the fact that you have to spend a lot of time in the restroom taking care of it.  

In general, I really dislike society's hostility towards children.  I'm not even a kid person.  I don't love kids.  But I also realize that children are a necessary and important part of society, and that with the beauty and significance of children comes things like NOISE, and MESS, and POOP.  

I'm not saying your friend should bring the child to every single social outing, BUT if we could chill out a little bit and adopt a little bit more of "it takes a village" to raise a child instead of the "Eww... crying poopy baby" attitude, maybe moms would deal with a lot less anxiety and depression, and maybe kids could be raised better.

Sorry, vent over.  I just didn't like the general attitude of this post.

I don't want to speak for STARMOON here and I could be wrong, but I read her post as being less hostile towards the kid and more like "Moms, you need to use some judgment when you are deciding to bring your young children along to social outings." Like I'm 100% on board with you about "it takes a village" and I sincerely hope her and her friends offered to help/did what they could to improve the situation... but it sounds like the mom should have known not to bring the kid to a packed brunch place. A noisy, crowded, hectic popular brunch place is only going to disturb the baby, and the baby in turn is going to disturb the other patrons. 

It's a bad mix and if the mom has been consistently oblivious to the fact that some places and events are not baby friendly, I understand deciding to exclude her when you go to those things (and hopefully they still make time to see her in a different environment).

monkeysip

I was actually quoting Cheesewench, not star moon.  Again, I agree there has to be a balance, and it's ok to want alone time with your friends, but I just didn't like the tone of Cheesewench's post

STARMOON44

monkeysip said:

I was actually quoting Cheesewench, not star moon.  Again, I agree there has to be a balance, and it's ok to want alone time with your friends, but I just didn't like the tone of Cheesewench's post

I just love your first sentence. How often do you get to use cheese wench in a sentence in life? Not often enough.

monkeysip

You know whenever I type Starmoon, I think of "Starlord" from Guardians of the Galaxy

YogaSandy

STARMOON44 said:

YogaSandy said:

I think your friend should have told you that her son would be there. She may have assumed you knew. My friends know if we do something during the day, DS will come with me. That's the way it is now. And I very much like spending time with my son. I get it, not everyone does, but this is my life now, and that's how you spend time with me. If you don't want to hang out with my kid, that's fine, but probably means you won't be able to get time with me. Especially when I'm working. I'm not going to give up a couple of hours of time with my son when others look after him all week. And no, I don't get babysitters (other than grandmas) because I don't trust anyone else with my son.

Granted, my choice to have DS should never infringe on others. However, we are pretty much a package deal.

To me that attitude would speak volumes about how much you actually care about my friendship. I'll do a ton of kid friendly stuff but if you can never make time for just me and you as adults because you have a bizarre refusal to use babysitters, welp I guess you aren't the friend I used to have before you had a kid. I'll meet you more than halfway, but if you're not willing to make any attempt? Not a good friend to me.

I guess not. I have limited time with my kid when I work and he goes to bed ridiculously early (not because I want him to, because that's when he's tired). So I value my time with him. I have friends that come over after he goes to bed. We do make arrangements -like when DH is home. But my son will always be the most important person in my life. I was also about the last of my friends to have a child. They've all been there.

photokitty

monkeysip said:

TheCheeseWench said:

snowywinter said:

STARMOON44 said:

snowywinter said:

No one knows if the OP's friend could make time for her without her son. The OP never asked, she just assumed her friend wouldn't bring her son. That's a dangerous assumption to make.

No, it's rude to assume that people who weren't invited to something are welcome. If you need to bring your child, you ask if that is okay.

Agree to disagree. I would never dream of assuming that a mom with a small child at home would get a sitter just for lunch. Maybe that's just me.

Totally disagree. I have a childhood friend (L) who has 4 kids. A bunch of us who have known each other since middle/HS agreed to meet for brunch. We don't see each other as often as we'd like, but that's just life.

We get to the totally packed brunchy restaurant and L shows up with her 9 month old in his car carrier. Not only was it a big deal for the completely booked restaurant to find an extra chair to sit his carrier on, there was no room at our table for it. The kid cried much of the time so the rest of us just got to watch her try to quiet him down.

She didn't warn any of us that our girly mimosa time was going to involve a squalling child and a diaper blowout (which required her to occupy the single-room ladies restroom for 15 minutes while a line formed outside the door). It was neither the time nor the place to just assume your kid was invited. Neither of them have been invited to subsequent brunches.

*BOX*

I think your attitude towards your friend is pretty callous here.  Should she have asked if her baby should come?  YES.  I'm not disagreeing.  But your post is dripping with hostility towards the baby, and a lack of sympathy for the difficulty of being a mother.

I hate to go here, but becoming a mother has been the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.  And I've dealt with a lot of difficult s***.  It's hard enough feeling like you're chained to the freaking house all day, and that society is not baby-friendly, without having friends who are judging you and complaining about your baby's poopy diaper and the fact that you have to spend a lot of time in the restroom taking care of it.  

In general, I really dislike society's hostility towards children.  I'm not even a kid person.  I don't love kids.  But I also realize that children are a necessary and important part of society, and that with the beauty and significance of children comes things like NOISE, and MESS, and POOP.  

I'm not saying your friend should bring the child to every single social outing, BUT if we could chill out a little bit and adopt a little bit more of "it takes a village" to raise a child instead of the "Eww... crying poopy baby" attitude, maybe moms would deal with a lot less anxiety and depression, and maybe kids could be raised better.

Sorry, vent over.  I just didn't like the general attitude of this post.

****ETA box ****

Regardless of how cheesewench and the rest of her group felt and decided to shun the mom. As a person sitting at a table trying to enjoy my mimosa bunch in an adult atmosphere, I appreciate them not inviting her and junior back. Mimosa bruch is expensive adult time.

The mom should have rsvped for the kid - rude not to when the venue requests reservations. Better yet, mom should have suggested they meet at Bob Evans.

Actions have consequences. The "village" eats at Bob's or another family friendly venue. Some places are just not kid friendly and some times a group wants to only consist of adults, parents need to be respectful of that.

wandajune6

A little slow in seeing my name pop up. I know that I've explained this here before a few times but thought I'd do it again for the record. I call my stepson The Kid because it is his preference. When DH and I decided to marry, we talked with him about my long-term role. He was 14 and didn't want another parent, much yet another mother since his two he already had were so shitty (his mom and his mom's now-wife). Since he didn't want to be anyone else's son but still wanted me, we needed a title. He chose the title because he and his dad love the movie of the same name.

As a stepmom to a very sensitive teen, this is a great place to vent some rage. I've been known to take advantage because being a stepmom is the hardest job I've ever taken on- and 16 year old boys can be amazing assholes. However, using The Kid here comes from a place of love and mutual respect.

All of that said, I have a lot of friends with small kids. Babysitters are expensive and PIAs, especially mid-day. While I hate it when friends have to ask their husbands to watch kids (that should be a shared responsibility), it comes up a lot. The younger the kid, the easier it is to have one along for lunch. It can be frustrating and annoying but it's part of having a friend with kids. I'd also add that a bit of goodwill and patience now will count for a lot should you eventually find yourself a parent and your friends have kids that they no longer need to bring along.

drunkenwitch

I will be watching this thread with interest.  I have a friendship, that much to my sadness, I have to put some distance into.  One of the reasons is her 7 year old son, she brings him everywhere, absolutely everywhere.  Every girl night, every gathering, every visit no matter what time of day or what the location is. Then she doesn't watch him at all and I have to constantly chase him around my very not kid friendly house and stop him from getting into everything.  The problem is he gets bored (don't blame him, my house is boring as seven hells for a little kid) so he decides to start opening my dresser drawers and rummaging around in them and my friend gets defensive when I get upset that her son is digging through my underwear drawer. Or he'll decide to climb into my bed with his shoes on and get dirt all over my bed sheets.  Sigh.   It also means we have a very limited list of what we can talk about (little pitchers have big ears and all). 

It's not that I hate her son, he's actually a pretty cool kid that I enjoy spending time with, but he's a rambunctious 7 year old boy so having him at my house or eating a restaurant with him pleasant experience for me. I limit my visits with her to her house.  That way I get to my friend, and her son, we get to talk and he has things to entertain him when he gets bored.  problem is, she's starting to ask why I don't invite her to my house or why to don't go out to dinner and I don't know how to tell her "because you don't watch your kid" because I know she'll blow her stack at me.

[Deleted User]

I gotta admit I don't tend to remain frinds with people who have kids- kids just are not my thing. If I have to always go to your house and the kid(s) are always there and interrupting, I just can't handle it. And despite my friends saying they want adults to talk to for a while, they then just talked about their kid the whole time. Somehow every topic change could somehow be twisted back to children. *yawn* No thanks. I get that your priorities and life change, but mine haven't/hasn't. And to be honest, I can't really relate to a parent once they've entered full on parent mode. And parents really hate advice and comments from non-parents about their kids, parent style, etc. so I just have to listen to you prattle the whole time we're together? Again, no thanks. Kudos to those who can maintain friendships with parents when they aren't one, but I have exhausted myself trying during my 20s and it's just not something I can maintain. My 30s have been much better since I just don't deal with parents (unless it's a relative and then you just suck it up). Most of my friends are not people I even talk to all that often anyway, so I don't feel like I'm "missing" anything by letting the friendship drift. Instead of talking to you once every 5-6 months I just talk to you never; it's not that different. ***** ETA: TK ate my paragraphs- I can see them in editing but not after posting

NowIamMrsKlein

When one of my closest friends had her first child, I was very single and very lonely. I missed our friendship and girls nights outs. Every invitation to coffee or invitation to go shopping or whatever included her baby. I would get super excited to go shopping and grab a drink and arrive at the mall to find her with her stroller. Suddenly the easy breezy shopping excursion I imagined involved crying and screaming and frequent bathroom trips while I wandered by myself. It was hard. I slowly drifted from the friend because the friendship was no longer one I recognized. Does that make me a bad person? No. Just because her life changed doesn't necessarily mean that I was in a place to change with her.  I missed my friend.

Eventually had a chance to have a conversation about it and I told her how it made me feel, and you know what? She completely understood, and wished that I had mentioned it earlier. Now when we make plans to hang out she will either tell me ahead of time that her H is working/busy and unable to watch their child and ask if I am ok with kid tagging along. Sometimes I will say yes, definitely, and other times I will say 'oh I was really looking forward to some girl time with you' and we will reschedule for a time when hubby can watch their kid.

FI and I have already talked about how we will approach things when we have children, and both of us are definitely agree that sometimes one parent needs to stay home with kids while the other goes out and maintains their friendships and vice versa. I know children change your life, and I know they become first priority. But I think being able to balance home and friendships to be very important. I know that when I have a kid I will be desperate for girls nights out now and then. 

themosthappy91

monkeysip said:

I was actually quoting Cheesewench, not star moon.  Again, I agree there has to be a balance, and it's ok to want alone time with your friends, but I just didn't like the tone of Cheesewench's post

Ah yes, I knew that- just mistyped- but I was aware you were responding to Cheese Wench, my bad!

But to the point Yoga and others are making- no one expects you to not prioritize your kid(s) over everyone else in your life. That's just a given- I think very few parents don't feel like their kids take the top spot in their lives, and no one holds that against them. 

The point is it becomes a problem when there's literally no room for anyone else- if you are willing to have people over every once in a while when the kid has already gone to sleep, get a sitter for a girls night every couple of months, leave the baby with your husband for an occasional lunch, that's not a problem with me. It's when you and the kid are "a package deal" and you refuse to make any adults-only time that it becomes not worth my time to keep up the friendship.

YogaSandy

FeeleyToBe said:

I gotta admit I don't tend to remain frinds with people who have kids- kids just are not my thing. If I have to always go to your house and the kid(s) are always there and interrupting, I just can't handle it.

And despite my friends saying they want adults to talk to for a while, they then just talked about their kid the whole time. Somehow every topic change could somehow be twisted back to children. *yawn* No thanks.

I get that your priorities and life change, but mine haven't/hasn't. And to be honest, I can't really relate to a parent once they've entered full on parent mode. And parents really hate advice and comments from non-parents about their kids, parent style, etc. so I just have to listen to you prattle the whole time we're together? Again, no thanks.

Kudos to those who can maintain friendships with parents when they aren't one, but I have exhausted myself trying during my 20s and it's just not something I can maintain. My 30s have been much better since I just don't deal with parents (unless it's a relative and then you just suck it up).

Most of my friends are not people I even talk to all that often anyway, so I don't feel like I'm "missing" anything by letting the friendship drift. Instead of talking to you once every 5-6 months I just talk to you never; it's not that different.

*****

ETA: TK ate my paragraphs- I can see them in editing but not after posting

This was definitely me. A whole group of my friends - like 6 - had babies at the same time. All they ever talked about was baby stuff, parenting etc. no hard feelings. Their lives changed and mine didn't. It just wasn't for me. I'm still "friends" with them, but we've definitely drifted apart. Except for one, I pretty much stopped being friends with her when she called me fat. I gained a bunch of weight my first year teaching. She had a baby. She then had a wedding to go to. She kept going on and on and on and on about how fat she now was and had nothing to wear to this wedding. Could she borrow something from me? Now, had it simply been she had nothing to wear, could she borrow something, fine. We would all know the reason, but it wouldn't have been nearly as rude. To top it all off, she used to be really heavy and lost weight in university.

banana468

FeeleyToBe said:

I gotta admit I don't tend to remain frinds with people who have kids- kids just are not my thing. If I have to always go to your house and the kid(s) are always there and interrupting, I just can't handle it. And despite my friends saying they want adults to talk to for a while, they then just talked about their kid the whole time. Somehow every topic change could somehow be twisted back to children. *yawn* No thanks. I get that your priorities and life change, but mine haven't/hasn't. And to be honest, I can't really relate to a parent once they've entered full on parent mode. And parents really hate advice and comments from non-parents about their kids, parent style, etc. so I just have to listen to you prattle the whole time we're together? Again, no thanks. Kudos to those who can maintain friendships with parents when they aren't one, but I have exhausted myself trying during my 20s and it's just not something I can maintain. My 30s have been much better since I just don't deal with parents (unless it's a relative and then you just suck it up). Most of my friends are not people I even talk to all that often anyway, so I don't feel like I'm "missing" anything by letting the friendship drift. Instead of talking to you once every 5-6 months I just talk to you never; it's not that different. ***** ETA: TK ate my paragraphs- I can see them in editing but not after posting

I feel like this is a really narrow-minded and isolating viewpoint.   People with kids talk about their kids because they're in their lives.   I also started talking about DH more when he entered my life.   I talk about going to the bar less because well, I go to the bar less often.

Also to the bolded:

1) I'm not going to speak for all parents so you shouldn't either.

2) As a parent, I'm not a fan of anyone telling me what I should/shouldn't do if it comes off poorly.   That includes the people who have no experience with kids and it also includes people like my own mother.    Don't we deal with stuff like that here?   Oh wait!   It's silly to think that one knows all about planning a wedding when she/he hasn't done it yet.   So why would you think that you know all about how to parent an individual child with his/her own idiosyncrasies?   I don't know the best way to handle DD all the time and I see here day in and day out.

Without people having kids, the population is going to slowly die, you'll find towns that are just dying (look at cases of cities where there aren't children filling the schools) and some day, you may want people to take care of you in your old age.   You'll need a younger generation to do that.    Believe me - I'm not one to want to be in full time mom mode who has to show her kid how to blow Play-Doh out of her nose before we leave the house (true story) but I'm glad I'm friends with people who still want to talk to me now that I've had two living beings come out of my uterus. 

TheCheeseWench

monkeysip said:

TheCheeseWench said:

STARMOON44 said:

No one knows if the OP's friend could make time for her without her son. The OP never asked, she just assumed her friend wouldn't bring her son. That's a dangerous assumption to make.

No, it's rude to assume that people who weren't invited to something are welcome. If you need to bring your child, you ask if that is okay.

Agree to disagree. I would never dream of assuming that a mom with a small child at home would get a sitter just for lunch. Maybe that's just me.

Totally disagree. I have a childhood friend (L) who has 4 kids. A bunch of us who have known each other since middle/HS agreed to meet for brunch. We don't see each other as often as we'd like, but that's just life. We get to the totally packed brunchy restaurant and L shows up with her 9 month old in his car carrier. Not only was it a big deal for the completely booked restaurant to find an extra chair to sit his carrier on, there was no room at our table for it. The kid cried much of the time so the rest of us just got to watch her try to quiet him down. She didn't warn any of us that our girly mimosa time was going to involve a squalling child and a diaper blowout (which required her to occupy the single-room ladies restroom for 15 minutes while a line formed outside the door). It was neither the time nor the place to just assume your kid was invited. Neither of them have been invited to subsequent brunches.

*BOX*

I think your attitude towards your friend is pretty callous here.  Should she have asked if her baby should come?  YES.  I'm not disagreeing.  But your post is dripping with hostility towards the baby, and a lack of sympathy for the difficulty of being a mother.

I hate to go here, but becoming a mother has been the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.  And I've dealt with a lot of difficult s***.  It's hard enough feeling like you're chained to the freaking house all day, and that society is not baby-friendly, without having friends who are judging you and complaining about your baby's poopy diaper and the fact that you have to spend a lot of time in the restroom taking care of it.  

In general, I really dislike society's hostility towards children.  I'm not even a kid person.  I don't love kids.  But I also realize that children are a necessary and important part of society, and that with the beauty and significance of children comes things like NOISE, and MESS, and POOP.  

I'm not saying your friend should bring the child to every single social outing, BUT if we could chill out a little bit and adopt a little bit more of "it takes a village" to raise a child instead of the "Eww... crying poopy baby" attitude, maybe moms would deal with a lot less anxiety and depression, and maybe kids could be raised better.

Sorry, vent over.  I just didn't like the general attitude of this post.

Sorry if you don't like the "attitude" of the post, but I don't think it was callous at all. The woman has 4 children. The stress and difficulties are not new to her, and she continues to choose to have more so one would hope she's got a handle on it. She knew very well that the restaurant we chose was not a baby-friendly place, but decided that they would just have to accommodate her even if it inconvenienced everyone else around her.

Also, the friend who suggested not inviting her the next time has 2 small children. She said that if she wanted to deal with an upset baby, she would have just stayed home and not wasted her "hall pass" (her words, not mine) to get out for some adult time while her DH watched the kiddos.

None of us are child-haters or anything, we just don't appreciate the "I have a baby so the world should just accommodate that" attitude. About half of the women there have kids of various ages, and I really enjoy some of their kids (some I just don't ever see). I go to dance recitals and birthday parties etc... I'm "Aunt Panda" to a couple of them. These other Moms were just looking forward to a couple of hours NOT thinking about diaper changing, homework, or the Wiggles. That's why we chose a schmancy brunch place, not Chuck E. Cheese.

[Deleted User]

banana468 said:

FeeleyToBe said:

I gotta admit I don't tend to remain frinds with people who have kids- kids just are not my thing. If I have to always go to your house and the kid(s) are always there and interrupting, I just can't handle it. And despite my friends saying they want adults to talk to for a while, they then just talked about their kid the whole time. Somehow every topic change could somehow be twisted back to children. *yawn* No thanks. I get that your priorities and life change, but mine haven't/hasn't. And to be honest, I can't really relate to a parent once they've entered full on parent mode. And parents really hate advice and comments from non-parents about their kids, parent style, etc. so I just have to listen to you prattle the whole time we're together? Again, no thanks. Kudos to those who can maintain friendships with parents when they aren't one, but I have exhausted myself trying during my 20s and it's just not something I can maintain. My 30s have been much better since I just don't deal with parents (unless it's a relative and then you just suck it up). Most of my friends are not people I even talk to all that often anyway, so I don't feel like I'm "missing" anything by letting the friendship drift. Instead of talking to you once every 5-6 months I just talk to you never; it's not that different. ***** ETA: TK ate my paragraphs- I can see them in editing but not after posting

I feel like this is a really narrow-minded and isolating viewpoint.   People with kids talk about their kids because they're in their lives.   I also started talking about DH more when he entered my life.   I talk about going to the bar less because well, I go to the bar less often.

Also to the bolded:

1) I'm not going to speak for all parents so you shouldn't either.

2) As a parent, I'm not a fan of anyone telling me what I should/shouldn't do if it comes off poorly.   That includes the people who have no experience with kids and it also includes people like my own mother.    Don't we deal with stuff like that here?   Oh wait!   It's silly to think that one knows all about planning a wedding when she/he hasn't done it yet.   So why would you think that you know all about how to parent an individual child with his/her own idiosyncrasies?   I don't know the best way to handle DD all the time and I see here day in and day out.

Without people having kids, the population is going to slowly die, you'll find towns that are just dying (look at cases of cities where there aren't children filling the schools) and some day, you may want people to take care of you in your old age.   You'll need a younger generation to do that.    Believe me - I'm not one to want to be in full time mom mode who has to show her kid how to blow Play-Doh out of her nose before we leave the house (true story) but I'm glad I'm friends with people who still want to talk to me now that I've had two living beings come out of my uterus. 

You can't isolate that comment from the rest of the statement.  All these people talked about were their kids.  The kids weren't "in their lives" they WERE their lives.  I would try to tactfully change the topic and somehow they'd go off on a a tangent back to talking about their kids! 

Me:  Did you watch the Bears game? 
Her:  I was feeding Billy so no.  It's just so hard.  He doesn't seem to like the formula, but I can't get him to latch on for breast feeding...  blah blah blah blah. 
Me:  Yea, so um... Cutler threw an interception. 
Her:  I'm sure Billy will play football one day.  Or maybe soccer.  I'd rather he played an instrument but I don't see why he couldn't do both.
Me:  FML! (internal dialog)

(You think I'm kidding, but I'm not.  It went on for 2 years before I just finally gave up.)

So, what am I supposed to do while you're talking about your kid?  Most parents (since I can't speak for all) don't like non-parents chiming in on their parenting style, kids' behavior, etc., so I have to walk on egg shells about what I say just in case it is is something I'm "not allowed" to comment on because I don't have kids.  And whether or not you know it; that's what I did- and I suspect a lot of people do.  I found myself worried all the time that I'd stick my foot in my mouth or piss someone off.  Therefore, my alternative was to smile and nod, because to say anything else came with the worry of offending them.

Well you know what?  I don't want to sit in silence on my end for two hours while people yammer on about their kids.  I don't like kids (I don't hate them, but I don't like them)- I don't want to talk about them- they don't interest me, I don't think they are cute and funny and sweet.  Now, because you're my friend can I politely sit and nod for 10 minutes each time we talk about what Billy did today?  Sure.  But not EVERY SINGLE time we're together and not for the WHOLE visit. 

And please don't even start with BS about "if no one has kids there will be no human race left."  Do some research.  This planet could stand to lose about 33% of its population RIGHT NOW.  Newsflash; we're headed toward extinction as a species because of high birth rates, over crowding, over development, and loss of natural resources. 

Here you go- human population throughout the ages- and this was as of 2009!  There are even MORE people on the planet now. 

Ever seen a pond completely full of algae one day and the next it's crystal clear?  Yeah, that's because of over population, lack of resources, etc. and eventually, the algae dies- it's an episode of mass extinction.  Humans are on their way to this same fate.  It's a really sad fate.  So keep bringing lots of kids into the world while we buy goods and services that require us to keep cutting down forests, polluting the oceans, killing off animal species, fracking / drilling for oil and other natural resources, and building on what was once good land for growing food or habitat for animals.  Because "who will take care of us?"  Ha.  In the not so distant future, people will be asking how will they feed themselves; where will they live; what will they drink?  They aren't going to be able to take care of anyone else. 



I realize this can seem like a crazy dooms-day statement.  That's not my intent.  I'm not a dooms-day planner, I don't have a bunker or food stores or anything like that.  But there is a lot of evidence piling up and being ignored; even by scientists, that over population is a major problem and going to lead to extinction of the species.  The leap you made to people dying out is unfounded from what the research shows.

This article is a few years old now, but it links to other articles, etc about the topic of over population. 
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/climate-report-proves-humans-are-the-new-dinosaurs-2013-10-12

MrsMack10612

The one thing that somebody said, and I think it was @monkeysip, is society's hostility towards children.

Personally, I think that's become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  There was a time, when children were seen and not heard, I'm not agreeing with the sentiment per se, but it was a time when it was understood that there is a time & place for children.

With attachment and helicopter parenting, there has been a loss of adult space.  People assume, expect that their children are and should be welcomed everywhere regardless of location or circumstances.  I believe this is what's causing the hostility.  Those of us (and I count myself in the us, we are not having children, we don't want children and with the exception of some of our friends children, we don't like children) that would like to go to the 5 star restaurant for a nice adult evening, don't want it ruined because someone thinks it's an appropriate place for a baby that's screaming (and just lets it scream) or a toddler that they allow to run rampant.

Poor parenting, entitled parenting - that is what's causing the society's hostility towards children.

monkeysip

The problem is we have an AGING population.  So, unless you want to start killing off the elderly (volunteers?) then people need to keep having babies.

And yes, our population has increased exponentially, but so have our resources.  People were warning that we were soon going to reach our max back when our population was 1/20th of its current size.

It's really easy to complain about population problems from the privileged position of western society.  Western society uses WAY more resources than the over-populated countries.  It's NOT about overpopulation, it's about an unequal use of resources.  

And about people's hostility to children?  Sure, some of it may be a result of bad parenting.  But I think that's a copout to say it's all that.  Let's face it, society has increasingly separated sex from procreation in its mind, and children are no longer seen as assets, but only liabilities.  

I don't take DD to fancy restaurants, bars, weddings-she's-not-invited-to, or anything like that.  Adult space is fine.  But I don't like that even at Dennys or Target or CHURCH for goodness sake, people act like a crying baby is the end of the world.  Guess all of us parents should just stay home and try to make sure our children never make a peep.  Because that's healthy.  And the whole "children should be seen and not heard" is ALSO a western cultural thing.  Other societies don't view children that way.

MrsMack10612

I see a whole lot more bad parenting than I do good parenting.  And it doesn't matter if it is a family friendly place like church, Target or Denny's - I shouldn't have to listen to your (general) child scream for any length of time longer than 5 minutes because you don't want to deal with the problem or remove yourself from the circumstance.  I have a problem with crying babies in church.  I go to church to LISTEN to the sermon and meditate and reflect.  I cannot do that if there is a child crying in the background drowning out the minister, the choir or the peacefulness of the sanctuary.  

I'm not sure when it became appropriate to just let children cry ceaselessly in public places allowing them to disrupt the location for all there.  I certainly sympathize when a child is throwing an uncontrollable tantrum (I've been there done that when my nephew was small.  He was the king), but that doesn't mean I have to listen to it and if I'm "hostile towards children" it's because it irritates me.  But it seems to me, if the child is that inconsolable, maybe its time to take them home.

And perhaps it is a western cultural thing because we have spoiled, entitled children, raised by spoiled, entitled parents (this is not directed at you monkeysip, just a general statement).  I have traveled to a small handful of other countries and I have never seen the behavior in children there that we have in this country.

STARMOON44

MrsMack10612 said:

I see a whole lot more bad parenting than I do good parenting.  And it doesn't matter if it is a family friendly place like church, Target or Denny's - I shouldn't have to listen to your (general) child scream for any length of time longer than 5 minutes because you don't want to deal with the problem or remove yourself from the circumstance.  I have a problem with crying babies in church.  I go to church to LISTEN to the sermon and meditate and reflect.  I cannot do that if there is a child crying in the background drowning out the minister, the choir or the peacefulness of the sanctuary.  

I'm not sure when it became appropriate to just let children cry ceaselessly in public places allowing them to disrupt the location for all there.  I certainly sympathize when a child is throwing an uncontrollable tantrum (I've been there done that when my nephew was small.  He was the king), but that doesn't mean I have to listen to it and if I'm "hostile towards children" it's because it irritates me.  But it seems to me, if the child is that inconsolable, maybe its time to take them home.

And perhaps it is a western cultural thing because we have spoiled, entitled children, raised by spoiled, entitled parents (this is not directed at you monkeysip, just a general statement).  I have traveled to a small handful of other countries and I have never seen the behavior in children there that we have in this country.

Jesus literally said let the children come to me. Try opening your heart to the Lord's word. I fail at being judgmental too, but it's a terrible thing to take pride in your righteous indignation that children and parents should leave worship for your convenience.

MrsMack10612

@starmoon44 So somebody's worship is going to get ruined, so it should be mine?

The church I grew up in had a nursery and Sunday school for the children.  There was also the children's chapel where our Associate Pastor would have a children's oriented service before they went to Sunday school.  We had several Sunday's a year designed for children's worship services in the sanctuary.  And we were all good with it that way.  I (nor my siblings) was not permitted to attend church in the sanctuary with our mother until we were old enough to sit still and appreciate the service.  We went to children's church instead.

[Deleted User]

monkeysip said:

The problem is we have an AGING population.  So, unless you want to start killing off the elderly (volunteers?) then people need to keep having babies.

And yes, our population has increased exponentially, but so have our resources.  People were warning that we were soon going to reach our max back when our population was 1/20th of its current size.

It's really easy to complain about population problems from the privileged position of western society.  Western society uses WAY more resources than the over-populated countries.  It's NOT about overpopulation, it's about an unequal use of resources.  

And about people's hostility to children?  Sure, some of it may be a result of bad parenting.  But I think that's a copout to say it's all that.  Let's face it, society has increasingly separated sex from procreation in its mind, and children are no longer seen as assets, but only liabilities.  

I don't take DD to fancy restaurants, bars, weddings-she's-not-invited-to, or anything like that.  Adult space is fine.  But I don't like that even at Dennys or Target or CHURCH for goodness sake, people act like a crying baby is the end of the world.  Guess all of us parents should just stay home and try to make sure our children never make a peep.  Because that's healthy.  And the whole "children should be seen and not heard" is ALSO a western cultural thing.  Other societies don't view children that way.

Please show me some data that says resources are increasing. Tell that to people in CA going on 4 years of drought. That's just one example off the top of my head.

drunkenwitch

I am just tired of my friend bringing her uninvited child into my home and then getting pissy and defensive when I don’t want him running around unsupervised.  One of the benefits of getting my tubes tied is I shouldn’t have to chase after a kid.

Hence, she stopped getting invited over to my home.

monkeysip

FeeleyToBe said:

The problem is we have an AGING population.  So, unless you want to start killing off the elderly (volunteers?) then people need to keep having babies.

And yes, our population has increased exponentially, but so have our resources.  People were warning that we were soon going to reach our max back when our population was 1/20th of its current size.

It's really easy to complain about population problems from the privileged position of western society.  Western society uses WAY more resources than the over-populated countries.  It's NOT about overpopulation, it's about an unequal use of resources.  

And about people's hostility to children?  Sure, some of it may be a result of bad parenting.  But I think that's a copout to say it's all that.  Let's face it, society has increasingly separated sex from procreation in its mind, and children are no longer seen as assets, but only liabilities.  

I don't take DD to fancy restaurants, bars, weddings-she's-not-invited-to, or anything like that.  Adult space is fine.  But I don't like that even at Dennys or Target or CHURCH for goodness sake, people act like a crying baby is the end of the world.  Guess all of us parents should just stay home and try to make sure our children never make a peep.  Because that's healthy.  And the whole "children should be seen and not heard" is ALSO a western cultural thing.  Other societies don't view children that way.

Please show me some data that says resources are increasing. Tell that to people in CA going on 4 years of drought. That's just one example off the top of my head.

So, food sources haven't increased over your little graph that showed population growth over 2,000 years?  Lol....

I'm not saying all resources have increased.  You're right, water is a good example.  I still know large families though that consume less than single people people they're thrifty.  Again, my point is that people can't just stop having babies.  That's not the solution to the problem.  The solution lies in being less of a consuming society.

Think of the drought in california.  Farmers and poorer people are suffering because there's no water.  And yet rich people have luscious green lawns.  It's a problem of distribution.  I'm not saying we should all have 10+ kids, I'm just saying it's silly to think that everyone sticking to some kind of one-child policy or something is going to help anything, you know?  Society will ALWAYS need children.

snowywinter

drunkenwitch said:

I am just tired of my friend bringing her uninvited child into my home and then getting pissy and defensive when I don’t want him running around unsupervised.  One of the benefits of getting my tubes tied is I shouldn’t have to chase after a kid.

Hence, she stopped getting invited over to my home.

If I invite a friend with a young child into my home, I generally assume her child will come too. But again, that's just me.

drunkenwitch

snowywinter said:

drunkenwitch said:

I am just tired of my friend bringing her uninvited child into my home and then getting pissy and defensive when I don’t want him running around unsupervised.  One of the benefits of getting my tubes tied is I shouldn’t have to chase after a kid.

Hence, she stopped getting invited over to my home.

If I invite a friend with a young child into my home, I generally assume her child will come too. But again, that's just me.

Did you even read my post?

snowywinter

drunkenwitch said:

snowywinter said:

drunkenwitch said:

I am just tired of my friend bringing her uninvited child into my home and then getting pissy and defensive when I don’t want him running around unsupervised.  One of the benefits of getting my tubes tied is I shouldn’t have to chase after a kid.

Hence, she stopped getting invited over to my home.

If I invite a friend with a young child into my home, I generally assume her child will come too. But again, that's just me.

Did you even read my post?

I absolutely did and I replied accordingly.

themosthappy91

snowywinter said:

drunkenwitch said:

I am just tired of my friend bringing her uninvited child into my home and then getting pissy and defensive when I don’t want him running around unsupervised.  One of the benefits of getting my tubes tied is I shouldn’t have to chase after a kid.

Hence, she stopped getting invited over to my home.

If I invite a friend with a young child into my home, I generally assume her child will come too. But again, that's just me.

And your point is? Does that make a better friend? A better person? More compassionate and wonderful? Are you advocating others should adopt that attitude? I feel like statements like this don't add much to the conversation without being thought out a bit more thoroughly- what would you like us, as the readers of your comment, to take away from it and respond to?

Then again, the rest of this convo has evolved into a very strange discussion of the ethics of procreation, so maybe I shouldn't fault you for at least staying on topic :P. 

snowywinter

themosthappy91 said:

snowywinter said:

drunkenwitch said:

I am just tired of my friend bringing her uninvited child into my home and then getting pissy and defensive when I don’t want him running around unsupervised.  One of the benefits of getting my tubes tied is I shouldn’t have to chase after a kid.

Hence, she stopped getting invited over to my home.

If I invite a friend with a young child into my home, I generally assume her child will come too. But again, that's just me.

And your point is? Does that make a better friend? A better person? More compassionate and wonderful? Are you advocating others should adopt that attitude? I feel like statements like this don't add much to the conversation without being thought out a bit more thoroughly- what would you like us, as the readers of your comment, to take away from it and respond to?

Then again, the rest of this convo has evolved into a very strange discussion of the ethics of procreation, so maybe I shouldn't fault you for at least staying on topic :P. 

It doesn't make me a better anything. It simply means that I, for one, would not expect a friend with a small child not to bring her child to my home when I extend an invitation to her. If I didn't want the child there, I would specifically say so. I wouldn't assume that my friend would know that her baby/toddler was "not invited."

teddygirl9

She said she didn't want him/her running around UNSUPERVISED and the parent getting pissy about it. Hence why she asked if you even read the post...