wedding: guests? elope? interfaith?

Physhlipps

Hey all!

SO! My fiance and I met in Feb. of this year. He proposed in September, and now we're a few weeks away from moving in together! We wanted to take some time with our engagement, we have a lot to sort out (job wise, moving, etc), and decided to hold off on wedding plans until the beginning of the new year. So here's our dilemma..

We both want a relatively small wedding. Traditionally my family tends to have about 100-150 guests. His family has much bigger weddings (we're talking 400+ people). I am not affiliated with any religion (I don't practice), but was raised Christian. His family is Jewish. Now my FMIL is asking if I'm going to convert (which is honestly a possibility, we have been going to synagogue and meeting with the rabbi..etc etc), but I ultimately don't want her to think I'm doing this for her. I've told her that.

She mentioned if I did convert I'd make "a lot of people happy" and would want us to have a Jewish wedding. Ugh.

I don't want to make my own extended family uncomfortable with a Jewish wedding, and I would ideally try to express traditions from both families. 

In our limited conversations about it, he and I have considered eloping (or maybe having immediate family only, which would limit our guest count to under 20 people). 

Someone said to me recently that a wedding isn't just about the Bride and Groom but it's a celebration for the families. So I'm back to, I don't want to offend anybody or make anyone uncomfortable. But I also don't want to spend 25K(+) on the wedding, and if we are getting financial help from his parents I'm confident I will be under my FMILs thumb. 

I really have no idea which way to go with this, or how to sort out what will be the best for him and I and our families. Elope and have a joint reception after? Give in and have a huge celebration? Jewish? 

A lot to consider. Any advice?

CMGragain

Physhlipps said:

Hey all!

SO! My fiance and I met in Feb. of this year. He proposed in September, and now we're a few weeks away from moving in together! We wanted to take some time with our engagement, we have a lot to sort out (job wise, moving, etc), and decided to hold off on wedding plans until the beginning of the new year. So here's our dilemma..

We both want a relatively small wedding. Traditionally my family tends to have about 100-150 guests. His family has much bigger weddings (we're talking 400+ people). I am not affiliated with any religion (I don't practice), but was raised Christian. His family is Jewish. Now my FMIL is asking if I'm going to convert (which is honestly a possibility, we have been going to synagogue and meeting with the rabbi..etc etc), but I ultimately don't want her to think I'm doing this for her. I've told her that.

She mentioned if I did convert I'd make "a lot of people happy" and would want us to have a Jewish wedding. Ugh.

I don't want to make my own extended family uncomfortable with a Jewish wedding, and I would ideally try to express traditions from both families. 

In our limited conversations about it, he and I have considered eloping (or maybe having immediate family only, which would limit our guest count to under 20 people). 

Someone said to me recently that a wedding isn't just about the Bride and Groom but it's a celebration for the families. So I'm back to, I don't want to offend anybody or make anyone uncomfortable. But I also don't want to spend 25K(+) on the wedding, and if we are getting financial help from his parents I'm confident I will be under my FMILs thumb. 

I really have no idea which way to go with this, or how to sort out what will be the best for him and I and our families. Elope and have a joint reception after? Give in and have a huge celebration? Jewish? 

A lot to consider. Any advice?

Hold off on any wedding planning until you and your FI are on the same page with religion.  How important is his religion to him? His family?  Until you have this settled, do not make any wedding plans.
I had a dear friend who married a Jewish man.  They never addressed the religious issue, and were happy together - until she gave birth to their son, who was also the first grandson in the family.  All of a sudden, religion became very important to everybody.  His family demanded a briss.  She objected.  End result was a sad divorce.
Please, please get some premarital counseling before you go through with any marriage plans.  My friends did this, and they married against the advice of their counselor, who pointed out that there were some important issues that they had not addressed.

In a traditional Jewish family, the children are considered to be of the same religion as the mother.  If you do not convert, then any grandchildren will not be considered to be Jewish.  This is the big issue.  It has nothing to do with the size or cost of your wedding.

JediElizabeth

Physhlipps said:

Hey all!

SO! My fiance and I met in Feb. of this year. He proposed in September, and now we're a few weeks away from moving in together! We wanted to take some time with our engagement, we have a lot to sort out (job wise, moving, etc), and decided to hold off on wedding plans until the beginning of the new year. So here's our dilemma..

We both want a relatively small wedding. Traditionally my family tends to have about 100-150 guests. His family has much bigger weddings (we're talking 400+ people). I am not affiliated with any religion (I don't practice), but was raised Christian. His family is Jewish. Now my FMIL is asking if I'm going to convert (which is honestly a possibility, we have been going to synagogue and meeting with the rabbi..etc etc), but I ultimately don't want her to think I'm doing this for her. I've told her that.

She mentioned if I did convert I'd make "a lot of people happy" and would want us to have a Jewish wedding. Ugh.

I don't want to make my own extended family uncomfortable with a Jewish wedding, and I would ideally try to express traditions from both families. 

In our limited conversations about it, he and I have considered eloping (or maybe having immediate family only, which would limit our guest count to under 20 people). 

Someone said to me recently that a wedding isn't just about the Bride and Groom but it's a celebration for the families. So I'm back to, I don't want to offend anybody or make anyone uncomfortable. But I also don't want to spend 25K(+) on the wedding, and if we are getting financial help from his parents I'm confident I will be under my FMILs thumb. 

I really have no idea which way to go with this, or how to sort out what will be the best for him and I and our families. Elope and have a joint reception after? Give in and have a huge celebration? Jewish? 

A lot to consider. Any advice?

My FI is Jewish and I was raised Catholic, though I haven't practiced in over a decade. We had some similar issues - my family was asking what church we were getting married in, and his family was asking about a Rabbi. As I'm not actually Catholic anymore, and he's never been religious, this was something that neither one of us were planning on.

When it comes down to it, our wedding, our marriage, and are religions are reflections of us, not our families or our heritages, so the two of us sat down and talked about it. Several times, actually, because it took a while for our words to get through to each other. It took him a while to understand why I thought a religious officiant would by inauthentic, and it took me a while to realize why he was not interested in a nondenominational officiant whom neither of us had ever met before. Many of our conversations have been like this, but we've slowly found what works for us.

I strongly suggest you figure out what works for you - both of you - before you make any other decisions. How religious are both of you, really? Is one of you absolutely against raising children with religion, while the other is all for it? Concentrate on that (and the move, and the jobs...) for now. 

Tell your FILs and your own family that wedding planning is on hold until you know, and don't talk to them about the wedding until you've figure it out, because they really shouldn't be effecting or taking part in those conversations. 

ILoveBeachMusic

I agree with PP. You two need to talk about where religion fits into the picture for you and your future family before moving on with any other planning. I would even say before planning the move too. Counseling would be a good idea like CMG said. Often when couples are just by themselves they can agree on things, but when kids come into the picture that changes everything. Make sure you guys are on the same page if you plan on having kids. Yes, this is about the two of you  but it will affect your families too. Not saying they should have any say in your decisions but the world is not a vacuum so family pressures need to be considered. Will you/FI be able to stand by your decisions over the years if they are against the wishes of family?

Physhlipps

I agree, this needs to be addressed before the wedding takes place. My fiance and I are very comfortable talking about religion and when it comes down to it, he really doesn't care if I convert or not. I told him that if we decided to have children I would expect traditions from BOTH families be expressed and taught (regardless), and he agrees.

Also, if I were to convert it would be Reformed. My fiance actually prefers reformed over orthodox, and with reformed only 1 parent needs to be Jewish for the children to be (doesn't matter if it's mother or father). Neither one of us are huge on religion but we do appreciate the community and traditions as a result, and both believe it would be great for families and kids to be a part of. 

My FMIL is really the only one this is a big deal to. As far as his father and siblings go, no one really feels differently about my being a part of the family if I don't convert. Of course, you're 100% right, things change significantly when there's children (grandchildren) involved!! And I think that is definitely a discussion (or start of many discussions) that we need to have and get on the same page about.

Bottom line is, I don't think I would be shut out from the family if I don't convert, but I believe a lot of people wouldn't attend our wedding if it was not Jewish (on his mothers side it's a big deal). I know my fiance would support me in whatever decision I make regarding converting, and he would stand up to his family to support me (he has in some ways already, specifically when his mom starts asking me about converting). 

My family honestly has no strong feelings about me converting or not. I don't think they would try to stop me if I decided to have a Jewish wedding, or raise my children Jewish. They're very open minded and would support us if that's what we wanted.

Lastly, we have discussed premarital counseling, and he's completely on board with that as well. Part of me wanted to do it at the synagogue that we've been attending, however, I now feel maybe non-religious (or non-biased?) input would be really beneficial in this case.

southernbelle0915

From what you've said here, it sounds like converting is more to be a part of his family then it is about you feeling like YOU want to be Jewish. So it sounds more because of external forces than internal feelings. I think that could be the cause of some regret down the road.

No matter what you do, YOU have to want it in order for it to make you happy and have staying power. If you don't, then you don't. This is your life, not his mother's. If those family members don't attend because you aren't "one of them", then you'll know their support was conditional. Personally, I don't try to appease those types of my-way-or-the-highway types of people.

CMGragain

What about celebrating Christmas?  Would this be a big deal for you?

JediElizabeth

CMGragain said:

What about celebrating Christmas?  Would this be a big deal for you?

This seems like the least important thing to think about - it's become so secular, that plenty of non-religious and atheist people I know celebrate. It's not as black and white as it used to be.

Despite our lack of religiosity, my FI and I had a solstice tree last year, and we celebrate part of the holiday with my family every year.  I couldn't imagine not doing so - my Italian family gets together every Christmas, and his Jewish family has nothing going on, so of course we're going to spend our day off with family eating and catching up and giving presents. If we ever have kids, they'll spend Christmas with my family, too. 

Since the OP said that they'd want any children to have a taste of both heritages, I think it would be easy for them to continue celebrating Christmas with her family if she wanted to.

CMGragain

I am a committed Christian, so the secular trappings of Christmas aren't very important to me, but I do know a lot of people who think they ARE important.   Would FMIL have a cow if there was a Christmas tree in her son's house?  Would the OP mind not having one?  This is just an example of the kind of questions the OP will need to think about.  Will she keep kosher over the high holy days?

It is not unlike weddings.  We know that a wedding requires a couple, an officiant, a license, and witnesses, but so may people think they just HAVE to have the white gown and veil.

Physhlipps

This is all really interesting... Yes of course I would convert only if it felt right for me. I'm not ready to make that decision, but I can honestly say I would not have even considered it had I not been exposed to it (I don't think that's a bad thing). 

My fiance is 100% okay with having a Christmas tree (to me it's really just tradition, I don't attend church, haven't since I was a child), and FMIL ultimately wouldn't care. I know a lot of Jewish families that have a Christmas tree. She was actually supportive of some things the Pope said when he was in town, which was a bit surprising, but I guess what I'm trying to say is she does try to be understanding. She's also honestly the only one who eats Kosher in his immediate family (and she knows that). 

As far as the ceremony, I kind of feel like if the extended family wouldn't go, I don't really want to invite them anyway. I'm not sure that's nice or not, but it's really more how I feel.

wink0erin

I know this post is a couple days old, but I wanted to respond. I'm not engaged, and don't plan on being engaged anytime very soon, but BF and I are in a serious relationship that will lead that way eventually. He is Jewish, and I was raised Catholic, but have never really considered myself to be Catholic, and I'm not even sure I'm really Christian. That said, converting needs to be a PERSONAL decision. No one else has a say in that. Do not convert solely for your FI or his family, because that could lead to resentment down the road. And make sure it is something you truly want. Read articles and books.

Talk about kids with your FI and how you would raise them. Talk seriously and deeply about it. I imagine that most issues related to differing religions will rear their heads when kids are involved. I have discussed this with BF, and we both want to raise any kids we have Jewish, and due to the fact the children become Jewish from their mother, that adds another layer. BF informed me that there is a way for children to be converted after birth so they can be recognized as Jewish without the mother converting. I do not know the details about that, so that may be something for you to look into.

 

On weddings... I have been to a couple interfaith weddings, one of which was held outdoors and they did several Jewish traditions. It was not uncomfortable for those who were not Jewish, that I could tell. Marriage isn't about giving up your own identity, it's about combining traits of both people. The wedding is honestly the least important thing to think about.

I asked BF for reference material so I didn't have to ask him every question that popped into my head, and he gave me his "Jewish Book of Why" books he got at his bar mitzvah. I've been reading into those and they have helped a lot. There are things I never thought about, and it's helpful to read the books and then discuss with him.

Sidenote, I see you met in February this year, so this December will be the first you've had together. Christmas can be sensitive, which I am just now starting to see with BF. He is excited to have his first Christmas at my parent's house, and I'm excited to spend Hanukkah with him and his family, but I imagine many questions will come up when we think about "how will we deal with these things when children are involved?"

Long post, sorry, but I can relate and it's sometimes hard to find answers or to talk to someone who is in the same boat!

JCocco219

I think you should definitely wait until you are both settled in, enjoy being engaged!  Also, and most importantly, talk, A LOT about religion.  Even if you think you have it all figured out, talk more!  I am Jewish (although I have not been to Temple in years, probably since my Bat Mitzvah when i was 13) and my fiance is Catholic (also does not go to church but his family is devout Catholics) We talked A LOT about this.  We both feel that even though we are not actively "practicing" our religions, that religion is still a huge part of who we are and we wanted religion on our wedding and marriage.  We have spoken to Rabbis and Priests and have come up with what works for us.  However, it did take us time, we needed to look at every option and every possible situation that could come up from having an interfaith wedding, marriage, and life together, including one with children. 

It can work and not be difficult, you just must really talk it all out!  Good luck!

[Deleted User]

Talk to your rabbi about the situation about honoring his family with Jewish Traditions and what Christian traditions you can bring in to honor your family. A neighbor just got married and she is jewish, he isn't. His brother is a christian ordained youth minister so they had him perform the ceremony. but they brought in a huppa (sp?) and did the shawl around the couple and I believe the breaking of the glass. But they honored both families.

For now, work out the details you said you need to work on. When you are ready to plan, figure out what you want to do and just tell both of your families that you have decided that you want to keep things intimate and have a small ceremony of however many people. And you both just have to stand firm in what you want, don't take money from anyone. Both sides will probably pressure you to have a big event. The only option is to elope, or arrange the wedding, invite everyone to dinner & surprise, it's our wedding. One of my friends, her brother did that. They all thought they were attending an engagement party & it ended up being the wedding. It reduced wedding planning drama so much.

nerdwife

Erikan73 said:

Talk to your rabbi about the situation about honoring his family with Jewish Traditions and what Christian traditions you can bring in to honor your family. A neighbor just got married and she is jewish, he isn't. His brother is a christian ordained youth minister so they had him perform the ceremony. but they brought in a huppa (sp?) and did the shawl around the couple and I believe the breaking of the glass. But they honored both families.

For now, work out the details you said you need to work on. When you are ready to plan, figure out what you want to do and just tell both of your families that you have decided that you want to keep things intimate and have a small ceremony of however many people. And you both just have to stand firm in what you want, don't take money from anyone. Both sides will probably pressure you to have a big event. The only option is to elope, or arrange the wedding, invite everyone to dinner & surprise, it's our wedding. One of my friends, her brother did that. They all thought they were attending an engagement party & it ended up being the wedding. It reduced wedding planning drama so much.

I really, really do not think people like that, especially here on TK. I actually had never heard of such a thing until I read about it here. But it does seem logically ridiculous. There are a lot of reasons I may miss an engagement party (maybe it's OOT, or I have other plans, or whatever other thing), but those same reasons would not apply to a wedding, and now suddenly I've missed someone's wedding?! I would not be happy about that.

Anyway. as someone who is also marrying someone who was raised with a different religion, I tried really hard to come up with one comprehensive answer. I failed. The short version is you need to first figure out what is most important to you, then talk - and talk and talk - to FI about it. I say first figure out yourself because it is really hard to have a conversation with someone when you don't know what you want, so you should at least go into it at least having some idea of dealbreakers, things you're willing to be flexible on, etc.

Once you know what you want and you and FI have confirmed that everyone is in agreement, decide what kind of wedding you want - big, small, here, there, religious, not-religious, etc. I would not discuss any of this with anyone else until you have made firm decisions. Once your decisions are made, you can share. If people don't agree, they will have to adjust eventually. 

Lots of people marry outside of their religion. Just like with all other aspects of a relationship, it's about communication.

ETA: Of course, FI has wants, too, so I didn't meant to imply that you should decide what you want and then tell FI that X is what you're doing. Just that you should be clear with yourself on what you are or aren't willing to do, and then see what FI thinks about those (and other) things, and come to an agreement.

FWIW, I never thought I would marry outside my religion - to me, being married seemed hard enough without the extra complication this brings. But here I am. And I kind of love it - we each get to bring the other to our families for all holidays and only have to worry about splitting Thanksgiving, plus we have a Christmas tree and a menorah, etc. etc. While I know it's complicated for people who are more religious than we are, it's obviously doable. Good luck!

[Deleted User]

nerdwife said:

Erikan73 said:

Talk to your rabbi about the situation about honoring his family with Jewish Traditions and what Christian traditions you can bring in to honor your family. A neighbor just got married and she is jewish, he isn't. His brother is a christian ordained youth minister so they had him perform the ceremony. but they brought in a huppa (sp?) and did the shawl around the couple and I believe the breaking of the glass. But they honored both families.

For now, work out the details you said you need to work on. When you are ready to plan, figure out what you want to do and just tell both of your families that you have decided that you want to keep things intimate and have a small ceremony of however many people. And you both just have to stand firm in what you want, don't take money from anyone. Both sides will probably pressure you to have a big event. The only option is to elope, or arrange the wedding, invite everyone to dinner & surprise, it's our wedding. One of my friends, her brother did that. They all thought they were attending an engagement party & it ended up being the wedding. It reduced wedding planning drama so much.

I really, really do not think people like that, especially here on TK. I actually had never heard of such a thing until I read about it here. But it does seem logically ridiculous. There are a lot of reasons I may miss an engagement party (maybe it's OOT, or I have other plans, or whatever other thing), but those same reasons would not apply to a wedding, and now suddenly I've missed someone's wedding?! I would not be happy about that.

Anyway. as someone who is also marrying someone who was raised with a different religion, I tried really hard to come up with one comprehensive answer. I failed. The short version is you need to first figure out what is most important to you, then talk - and talk and talk - to FI about it. I say first figure out yourself because it is really hard to have a conversation with someone when you don't know what you want, so you should at least go into it at least having some idea of dealbreakers, things you're willing to be flexible on, etc.

Once you know what you want and you and FI have confirmed that everyone is in agreement, decide what kind of wedding you want - big, small, here, there, religious, not-religious, etc. I would not discuss any of this with anyone else until you have made firm decisions. Once your decisions are made, you can share. If people don't agree, they will have to adjust eventually. 

Lots of people marry outside of their religion. Just like with all other aspects of a relationship, it's about communication.

ETA: Of course, FI has wants, too, so I didn't meant to imply that you should decide what you want and then tell FI that X is what you're doing. Just that you should be clear with yourself on what you are or aren't willing to do, and then see what FI thinks about those (and other) things, and come to an agreement.

FWIW, I never thought I would marry outside my religion - to me, being married seemed hard enough without the extra complication this brings. But here I am. And I kind of love it - we each get to bring the other to our families for all holidays and only have to worry about splitting Thanksgiving, plus we have a Christmas tree and a menorah, etc. etc. While I know it's complicated for people who are more religious than we are, it's obviously doable. Good luck!

I should have mentioned that the family had a idea that this is what was going to happen. They knew the couple wanted something small and simple and they had flown back cross country from where they moved to host this event in an area that worked for both families & they made sure their VIP's were available and would be coming. It may not be the preferred thing among knotties, but to the couples credit, they did properly host the event at a very nice restaurant (and yes they foot the whole bill for bar & food) and the people who were important to them, were there.  

Physhlipps

My FI and I have had many conversations about children (our potential future children lol), and we're so far on the same page. Wink, in regards to what you were saying, I think what you're bf is referring to is reformed Judaism. I don't want this to turn into a religious discussion but in Reformed Judaism, only ONE parent (either) has to be Jewish, and if if the children are raised Jewish then.. they're Jewish! I have been attending Synagogue and attending a class on Judaism (purely educational). He also dated someone previously who was Christian so the holidays that my family celebrates won't be a shock to him. 

We are both agreeable to starting pre-marital counseling as well. I think we are opting to chose someone without religious affiliation at least until I decide about my own choice with Judaism. 

NerdWife and JCocoa, I also appreciate the positive input! I'm finding that communication is absolutely key. Which, is obvious for any successful relationship but this really forces couples to dig deep and have those "uncomfortable" (at least at times) conversations about personal beliefs, and traditions, how we were raised, etc..and what that means for our future. 

I know we will figure this out, I just want to be able to communicate it to everyone appropriately and confidently. I know it's ultimately our decision, but as I've said before I don't want to offend anybody if possible. It won't stop me from doing what I feel is best for me/US, but this is still family and I think we have to treat this as a delicate matter.

Jen4948

Physhlipps said:

My FI and I have had many conversations about children (our potential future children lol), and we're so far on the same page. Wink, in regards to what you were saying, I think what you're bf is referring to is reformed Judaism. I don't want this to turn into a religious discussion but in Reformed Judaism, only ONE parent (either) has to be Jewish, and if if the children are raised Jewish then.. they're Jewish! I have been attending Synagogue and attending a class on Judaism (purely educational). He also dated someone previously who was Christian so the holidays that my family celebrates won't be a shock to him. 

We are both agreeable to starting pre-marital counseling as well. I think we are opting to chose someone without religious affiliation at least until I decide about my own choice with Judaism. 

NerdWife and JCocoa, I also appreciate the positive input! I'm finding that communication is absolutely key. Which, is obvious for any successful relationship but this really forces couples to dig deep and have those "uncomfortable" (at least at times) conversations about personal beliefs, and traditions, how we were raised, etc..and what that means for our future. 

I know we will figure this out, I just want to be able to communicate it to everyone appropriately and confidently. I know it's ultimately our decision, but as I've said before I don't want to offend anybody if possible. It won't stop me from doing what I feel is best for me/US, but this is still family and I think we have to treat this as a delicate matter.

In Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, only one parent has to be Jewish, but that has to be the mother.  The child of an Orthodox or Conservative Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is not considered Jewish by birth.  If the mother is not Jewish but the father is, the child is not Jewish unless s/he is ritually converted to Judaism as well as being raised according to Jewish religious law.  I think even Reform Judaism requires that a child of two non-Jewish parents must be ritually converted as well as be raised according to Jewish religious law to be considered Jewish.