"Brexit"

kimmiinthemitten

I've been hearing and reading more about the referendum next month for Britain to leave the EU.  I feel like everything has been well balanced and presented both sides evenly (BBC has a great TL;DR here).

I feel like both sides present interesting arguments; I'm curious as to what other people think especially @glasgowtolondonand @ScottishSarah.

I feel like the impact of this could be far more widespread than the USA's election, but you know us Americans, we don't spend too much time on other countries news unless it's juicy. 

glasgowtolondon

Well, same goes for the rest of us - unless it's about Trump I'm probably oblivious about American politics for the most part! It's the bat shit crazy that really grabs my attention, I feel for you all .

The problem with this referendum is that both sides keep trying to tell us what 'will' happen. No one can know, either way is a roll of the dice. It's almost time to vote so the FB updates and the hyperbole in the media is really stepping up its game. Leave side tells us that if we stay in Europe we'll be swamped with millions of immigrants from Turkey and eastern Europe, the NHS will crumble, and we'll have to live under sharia law (not actual claim, but it's all getting so ridiculous that it doesn't actually feel that crazy). The stay side tells us that if we leave we will plunge into recession, will have no ability to trade with ANYONE, and ww3 will probably start in Europe. I'm so sick of it all.

I am firmly pro Europe. I hope we vote to stay, I don't think that we have the influence in the world as a tiny island that we do within a large block. Especially a block within which we actually weald a fair bit of power. I also worry that if we vote to leave as a whole, but Scotland votes to stay, then we will face a second referendum for Scottish independence. I just don't think my nerves could handle that again for real. I also hate that so much of this debate centres around immigration. If we didn't have the immigration that we do our services would be on their knees, we can't escape the fact that we are an aging population. Immigrants in this country pay more in than they take out as a whole, the vast majority come here to work hard and pay taxes. I just get so frustrated when the focus is always on the small number that play the benefits system. And yes, I do believe that a lot of the immigration argument is fundamentally racist. One of the largest groups of people who migrate to the UK are from Ireland. I've never once heard anyone complain about them and the 'pressure' they put on our services. Or French, Spanish, Australians, or kiwis for that matter. I actually don't believe that closing our borders to Europe would completely change the type of migration that these people really hate. After all, India, Pakistan, and places like Syria are not in Europe. I know it's not always so cut and dry, and I definitely think I have a different view because I live in London instead of a small town in the north, but that's my opinion. I get that there are negatives with the European union, I certainly don't think it's all roses, but I believe the positives outweigh the negatives.

I just want this vote to be over now and we can move on either way! Also, FB is now full of overnight political experts. Bring back the status updates about all the disgusting things all your babies have done lately, please!

CMGragain

When I visited Russia a few years ago, the tour guide told me that she did all her shopping in Finland.  She got a rebate for the VAT there.  I can picture thrifty Brits riding the Chunnel to shop in Paris if the UK leaves the EU.

charlotte989875

There's very little data or precedence on what could happen if the vote is to leave, but it's unlikely it will be as catastrophic as many are predicting (if the vote even goes that way). If the vote is to leave there will be a phased withdrawal, it's not like the day after votes are tallied all agreements cease to be enforced. There are exit strategies and timeframes for negotiations on the exit plan so the impact will likely be slow and managed. That doesn't mean it's rthe right (or wrong) choice I just think that either option isn't going to collapse economic and political systems overnight. 

For or what it's worth it's an exercise in democracy. There are interesting arguments on both sides and it's letting people decide the fate of their government, many of which were not involved in the initial decision to begin with. 

Sherbie25

I agree with @glasgowtolondonthat a lot of the 'leave' argument centres around immigration scaremongering. I'm voting to stay; I don't thing we would manage on a world stage. People don't seem to realise that laws that protect maternity leave, minimum wage, etc come from the EU. I don't trust the current govt to protect my rights and my interests.

ScottishSarah

I am totally pro Europe and pro the Union.  I would love to share a story about my family that makes me believe in Europe so much.  

For the Too Long Didn't Read version I totally agree with @glasgowtolondon and people complaining about immigrants really upset me. 

My grandfather was one of the Kindertransport and came to this country alone and frightened without any of his family, his parents or his brother before the Second World War. His brother got out of the country to Israel but he never heard from the rest of his family ever again.  

He pretty much straight away considered the UK as his home.  He told me that his host family once gave him pork at dinner which he ate, then later realized he was Jewish and were so sorry and apologetic.  He said he told them "God did not mean me to stave" and began to pick up on the British customs from that day.  I'm sorry if this offends any Kosher members, but it is important to understand that this was war time and he was a survivor of Nazi Germany.  

When the war started as soon as he could he joined the British Army to fight the Nazis, he wanted to do his part for his new country.  After he was injured in a mine sweep exercise he moved over to the interrogation unit as he spoke German, Polish etc fluently.  I asked him once when I was a kid if they had to torture suspects.  He said the British Army had honor and would not do such a thing.  He said his job was to ask many people the same question, and one of them (at least) would tell him the truth.

After the war he fell in love with an English woman, they married and had my mother and uncle.  He later became a history professor and lived a happy life.  

I owe my life and existence to the kind people in the UK that helped the children come over here.  If you ask me it's time to do the same again in 2016.

Sorry for the long post, but this is why I believe we should stay in Europe, together we can support each other and we are better together.

ILoveBeachMusic

ScottishSarah said:

I am totally pro Europe and pro the Union.  I would love to share a story about my family that makes me believe in Europe so much.  

For the Too Long Didn't Read version I totally agree with @glasgowtolondon and people complaining about immigrants really upset me. 

My grandfather was one of the Kindertransport and came to this country alone and frightened without any of his family, his parents or his brother before the Second World War. His brother got out of the country to Israel but he never heard from the rest of his family ever again.  

He pretty much straight away considered the UK as his home.  He told me that his host family once gave him pork at dinner which he ate, then later realized he was Jewish and were so sorry and apologetic.  He said he told them "God did not mean me to stave" and began to pick up on the British customs from that day.  I'm sorry if this offends any Kosher members, but it is important to understand that this was war time and he was a survivor of Nazi Germany.  

When the war started as soon as he could he joined the British Army to fight the Nazis, he wanted to do his part for his new country.  After he was injured in a mine sweep exercise he moved over to the interrogation unit as he spoke German, Polish etc fluently.  I asked him once when I was a kid if they had to torture suspects.  He said the British Army had honor and would not do such a thing.  He said his job was to ask many people the same question, and one of them (at least) would tell him the truth.

After the war he fell in love with an English woman, they married and had my mother and uncle.  He later became a history professor and lived a happy life.  

I owe my life and existence to the kind people in the UK that helped the children come over here.  If you ask me it's time to do the same again in 2016.

Sorry for the long post, but this is why I believe we should stay in Europe, together we can support each other and we are better together.

This brought tears to my eyes!

kimmiinthemitten

@ilovebeachmusic Me too!

ScottishSarah

Thank you ladies, it really means a lot to me.  

charlotte989875

kimmiinthemitten said:

@ilovebeachmusic Me too!

Yah count me in too. 

kimmiinthemitten

FI's grandfather is a first generation American and a WWII vet. During the depression they lived in a home that backed up to railroad tracks and people stopped by daily asking for food while sneaking on and off the train. His mom always invited them in for boiled chicken, toast and tea "because you never know when you'll be the one knocking on someone's door."  During the war, he used his breaks to fish for the local displaced families because of his mother. 

He told me this story while Americans were up in arms over Syrian refugees. It's amazing how history really does repeat itself and how much we can learn from our ancestors.

kimmiinthemitten

BBC is reporting that the Brexit will happen.  Sorry for all of you who weren't in favor. 

I I wonder how the news is being received in Scotland?  Didn't they want to supersede from the rest of the U.K. but stayed for the EU?

glasgowtolondon

The feeling in scotland is very clear. They voted to stay in the EU, so we can assume that this will not only see us out of the EU but set in motion the break up of the united kingdom. 

ScottishSarah

Apparently the latest polls of Scots suggest that they would still vote no for independence even if it meant being able to stay in the EU.  Apparently, lets see what happens in the end.  

I feel a bit nervous really, it's a bit like having to walk to school without your brother for the first time.

At present 51% for exit.

glasgowtolondon

I'm sick to my stomach about it. What a shit day.

glasgowtolondon

@ScottishSarah where is that info? I wonder what will happen in Northern Ireland.

glasgowtolondon

Also, did anyone else see that lindsay lohan was live tweeting the whole thing? As if it wasn't surreal enough!

WinstonsGirl

@glasgowtolondon - Damn, you are up early.  Just heading to bed now myself.  Good luck with today.    

glasgowtolondon

Haven't been to bed @WinstonsGirl was too nervous!

ScottishSarah

glasgowtolondon said:

@ScottishSarah where is that info? I wonder what will happen in Northern Ireland.

I read this in the telegraph.  I'm normally the Guardian but I'm trying to read all the papers this morning to try and get a varied view.

I think this might just tip the Scots towards independence though?  I personally was totally against independence but now I feel my confidence a little shaken and less trusting of Westminster.  They should not have let this happen. Cameron is a fool, I thought he was more intelligent than that.

ScottishSarah

I've not been to sleep either.  Dear FI is slumbering beside me, I woke him up to tell him the result, all he said was "that's bullshit" and went back to sleep!

glasgowtolondon

I was the same @scottishsarah but I wanted Scotland to stay part of a UK that was in the EU. Now I think that they should seek to go their own way. It's obviously what Scotland want, and as much as I want to live in the same country as my family (UK), I was for the EU so I would be hypocritical not to want it for Scotland. Especially since they voted for it. I also wonder if NI start to push towards a united Ireland? Who knows. It's such a sad day 

glasgowtolondon

Also, someone shared this on FB - made me laugh this morning.

"It didn't quite go as planned" - Translation: I may have caused irreversible damage on a monumental scale.

ScottishSarah

Just seen this is the 3rd biggest fall in the pound in history, after the 2008 crisis and Black Wednesday.

ScottishSarah

I never ever ever thought I'd say this, but I think we should have another referendum in Scotland.

Just curious, does anyone ever talk about spitting up the USA?

kimmiinthemitten

I read the rumors about a unified Ireland this morning.   And about the drop in the pound and stock market. That's crazy and scary!  My liberal friends seem to think this will bring Europe back to pre-WWII instability and naturally my libertarian friends think this was a great move. I guess only time will tell. 

ScottishSarah said:

Just curious, does anyone ever talk about spitting up the USA?

A few fringe groups but no one ever takes them seriously. Texas is always the biggest headline.

CraftyG

Brit here too ✋ I'm still in shock about it! Farage has already said that all the money they were saying that would go the NHS isn't actually going there, they got the votes then went back on their word, can't say I'm surprised!

I just hope Trump doesn't get the vote too, UK and USA both down the shitter 

glasgowtolondon

kimmiinthemitten said:

I read the rumors about a unified Ireland this morning.   And about the drop in the pound and stock market. That's crazy and scary!  My liberal friends seem to think this will bring Europe back to pre-WWII instability and naturally my libertarian friends think this was a great move. I guess only time will tell. 

ScottishSarah said:

Just curious, does anyone ever talk about spitting up the USA?

A few fringe groups but no one ever takes them seriously. Texas is always the biggest headline.

Ha, kimmi when I was a teenager the scottish national party were "fringe" loons. Now they are the ruling party and it looks like they will be independant in the near future. 

kimmiinthemitten

I just read that Trump landed in Scotland last night and lauded the decision as a great move.  I hope he gets egged. 

glasgowtolondon

CraftyG said:

Brit here too ✋ I'm still in shock about it! Farage has already said that all the money they were saying that would go the NHS isn't actually going there, they got the votes then went back on their word, can't say I'm surprised!

I just hope Trump doesn't get the vote too, UK and USA both down the shitter 

I don't think the vote to leave was ever based on facts though. It seemed to me it was more about a feeling of disenfranchisement and fear of "other". Even a little research debunked Farage's comments about the £350mil, it was never about economic facts.

STARMOON44

ScottishSarah said:

I never ever ever thought I'd say this, but I think we should have another referendum in Scotland.

Just curious, does anyone ever talk about spitting up the USA?

Not seriously. The Civil War was a pretty good cautionary tale. 


What terrible news to wake up to. Heartbreaking.