.

redoryx

Knottie1466815565 said:

Looks like I'm a little late here- but having recently had my wedding I certainly have some advice.  I was in a similar situation and did in fact have a B list.  I did a lot of research on the subject and while it is seen as a taboo by some the reality is, a lot of people also think it is completely fine.  I truly never felt like I was being deliberately rude to my family and friends, but ya know, different people, different opinions, and I respect that.  Do what you think is right and be tasteful about how you approach it.  Honestly, we had great luck with it.  Lots of our rsvps came back very quickly and we were able to add without any trouble.  Ultimately we were both really happy we invited more people and the wedding was perfect. I completely understand the sentiment wanting to get as many of your loved ones there as possible, and if that is truly how you feel then go for it.  I mention this because everyone is adamantly against b lists (which again, I respect) but many brides have done the same, I wouldn't sweat it. Just give yourself some extra space for people who change their minds!  HOWEVER, what struck me about this thread is not the B list but the charity conversation. I also did this for my wedding.  I know 2 other couples who have done this for their wedding.  It never crossed my mind that it was rude, both as a bride and as an attendant.  If anything it contributed a certain warmness to our wedding.  For instance my nephew has cancer a many people donated to that cause.  It meant a lot to my family.  Also a friend of ours is from Nepal and raising money to rebuild towns destroyed by the earthquake and a lot of our friends donated to that cause.  Our friend from Nepal wasn't able to make it to the wedding but we recieved such an incredible letter from him thanking us for our help.  It made for some great conversations at the wedding, and I think it raised a lot of awareness for charities people may not have otherwise known about.  I suppose it may have offended people and we are just unaware, but given the incredibly positive affect it had I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.  I mean, take a look at the comments here, have a registry, don't have a registry...there are a million different people out there with a million different opinions and I think you should just do what is right for you.  Every couple is different, every wedding is different, and what works for someone else won't necessarily work for you.

AddieCake

Oh, look. A Knottie#s who just joined last week and has only commented on THIS post agrees with you,OP!  There ya go. Now you can do what you want because validation has occurred. 

New Knottie#s: (If you aren't a sock puppet) It's not about what works for some. I fail to see how it's even open to interpretation whether or not B-listing is rude. 

Would you call someone up and say, "Hey, I'm throwing a party, but I can't invite you unless someone I am inviting can't go. I'll keep you posted!" No, you wouldn't. At least I hope you wouldn't. But it's essentially the same thing in reverse. 

"I wasn't going to invite you to my party, but since someone I did invite can't make it, you can come now if you want." That's what B-listing says to people. 

Most of us can't invite every person we'd like to our weddings due to money and/or space. Some people are just going to make the cut over others. That's life. People understand that. I'd so much rather be just not invited b/c you didn't have money or space for me than to be a second string invitee. I know you'd like to invite me and if you had unlimited space and resources, you would have. But it still stings when it gets pointed out that I was second string. Inviting me second string calls my attention to that. And it calls to attention for our mutual friend Jane who also didn't get invited that she is even further down on the list than I was b/c when space opened up, it was me who got chosen, not her. 

So just say no to B-listing. It's far classier. 

Knottie1466815565

I've been on the knot for over a year, ever since I got engaged. I changed my email address after I got married to accommodate my new last name and opened a new account. Just trying to give a little advice, that's all. 

DrillSergeantCat

Knottie1466815565 said:

I've been on the knot for over a year, ever since I got engaged. I changed my email address after I got married to accommodate my new last name and opened a new account. Just trying to give a little advice, that's all. 

It's bad advice and comes off as you being the OP trying to prove to us that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

thisismynickname2

Ughhhh ok Knottie#s. The one thing I'll give you is the fact that a lot of people do B-list. SOME people don't care. I know I've been B-listed, and it's in situations where I'm not close friends with people but don't mind a good party, so I go. 
For every etiquette rule there's going to be people who aren't offended by a breach of said rule. It doesn't make it right! If people are here planning weddings, we give the right advice. People want to go ahead and break it, the people on these forums can't stop them. But at least the advice was given. 

I refused to B-list. DH had no qualms about it. It's all about proper planning. B-lists wouldn't exist if people just understood how to plan a friggin' party. You set your guest list FIRST, find a place to accommodate the guest list SECOND. Not the other way around. B-lists exist because people suck at planning. 

We had our budget sweet spot at 80. With the obligation invites and phantom plus-ones, we planned to accommodate a max of 96. We got 69 RSVPs. The venue didn't look empty- we had our dining tables in one area, a dance floor at one end, and a loungy-area on the other end, and used our excess budget for a ton of food. No seat-fillers needed. 

charlotte989875

Succinctly, B listing is rude because people are well aware of the fact they're being invited only after other people declined. You're telling them they're not good enough to be invited in the first place, but if other people you like more cant attend them they can come. My H (then BF) was B listed to a good friends wedding and I told her I understand, but really we were both hurt by it.

The charity thing is rude because you're telling people to give you a specific gift. In all cases this is rude. If you truly want to be charitable take the cash gifts people give you and donate it to a charity you support, do this privately. 

SP29

Knottie1466815565 said:

I mean, take a look at the comments here, have a registry, don't have a registry...there are a million different people out there with a million different opinions and I think you should just do what is right for you.  Every couple is different, every wedding is different, and what works for someone else won't necessarily work for you.

I don't understand what you are getting at here.

Someone can have a registry or not have a registry, if they want- but neither is rude. B-listing and asking for gifts/telling people how to spend their money is always rude.

The reason "don't have a registry" was suggested is that the OP is very adamant she doesn't want physical gifts. Well the way to do that is don't have a registry that contains physical gifts. The B&G don't actually have to say ANYTHING to their guests about the topic (such as your presence is present enough), the act of not having a registry conveys this.

Using silly phrases (your presence is present enough), talking about registries and charity donations is really just making things more complicated. The best option is to say nothing at all. Those who want to give a physical gift will (and they always will), but many will take the hint and give cash, in which case the B&G are free to donate that to charity if they wish.

I agree that B-listing should never happen- it really comes down to poor planning and budgeting. Want to invite your Aunt Sally AND your friend Susy? Then you find a venue that accommodates both. It shouldn't be that Susy gets invited only if Aunt Sally says no.

I think that so much of poor etiquette related to weddings happens and is deemed "OK" because it's a wedding. I encourage any planning bride and groom to think about any of these questionable practices (B-lists, cash bars, honeyfunds, charity donations, no chairs) and apply it to another event or party- would you still do these things? Would you invite someone to a birthday party only if someone else cancels? Would you invite someone to your home for dinner but charge them for alcohol? Would you invite someone to a birthday party you are hosting but ask for donations to charity instead?

kimmiinthemitten

Knottie1466815565 said: I mention this because everyone is adamantly against b lists (which again, I respect) but many brides have done the same, I wouldn't sweat it.

Everyone is adamantly against genocide too, but many governments have sponsored it.

If everyone is adamantly against it, becoming a bride doesn't give you carte blanche to be rude. 

SaintPaulGal

charlotte989875 said:

Succinctly, B listing is rude because people are well aware of the fact they're being invited only after other people declined. You're telling them they're not good enough to be invited in the first place, but if other people you like more cant attend them they can come. My H (then BF) was B listed to a good friends wedding and I told her I understand, but really we were both hurt by it.

The charity thing is rude because you're telling people to give you a specific gift. In all cases this is rude. If you truly want to be charitable take the cash gifts people give you and donate it to a charity you support, do this privately. 

This.  

Giving to charity is a great thing.  But telling others to donate to charity is not okay for the very same reason honeymoon registries are not okay: it is a request for a specific gift.  Plus it comes with a hefty helping of holier-than-thou, emphasizing that the bride and groom are JUST SO MAGNANIMOUS.  

I'm not much for organized religion personally, but there is a Bible verse that expresses exactly why people may be particularly uncomfortable with this kind of request: "Watch out! Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. When you give to someone in need, don’t do as the hypocrites do—blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity! I tell you the truth, they have received all the reward they will ever get."  Announcing to everyone that "this wedding is for CHARITY!  The gifts go to CHARITY!  We just love CHARITY!" is the modern equivalent of the hypocrites' trumpets in the street.

If you want to use your wedding as a vehicle to support a charitable cause, here's how you do it without being an ass: you take the monetary gifts you receive and donate them to the charity you want to support.  You could even return boxed gifts and give the store credit to an organization that could use that sort of goods.  (A battered women's shelter could certainly use things at Bed Bath and Beyond, and an employment assistance program would love to buy some business attire for their clients at Macy's.)  You do it in private, and you don't make a big show out of it.  If you are no longer interested in the concept if it doesn't involve people fawning over you for being SO NOBLE, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

coffeeparty

Knottie1466815565 said:

Looks like I'm a little late here- but having recently had my wedding I certainly have some advice.  I was in a similar situation and did in fact have a B list.  I did a lot of research on the subject and while it is seen as a taboo by some the reality is, a lot of people also think it is completely fine.

...

I mean, take a look at the comments here, have a registry, don't have a registry...there are a million different people out there with a million different opinions and I think you should just do what is right for you.  Every couple is different, every wedding is different, and what works for someone else won't necessarily work for you.

"Other people are rude so therefore it is ok if I am also rude" is a really childish, selfish way to approach any situation. It also says a lot about the mentality of the person throwing the wedding and where their priorities truly lie. Furthermore, it isn't remotely in the same category as whether or not you opt for a gift registry.

coffeeparty

SaintPaulGal said:

If you want to use your wedding as a vehicle to support a charitable cause, here's how you do it without being an ass: you take the monetary gifts you receive and donate them to the charity you want to support.  You could even return boxed gifts and give the store credit to an organization that could use that sort of goods.  (A battered women's shelter could certainly use things at Bed Bath and Beyond, and an employment assistance program would love to buy some business attire for their clients at Macy's.)  You do it in private, and you don't make a big show out of it.  If you are no longer interested in the concept if it doesn't involve people fawning over you for being SO NOBLE, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

But if you donate to charity and you don't tell absolutely everyone you know how charitable you're being, does it even count?

PrettyGirlLost

People seem to be really stuck on this charity donation thing.  I know you think you look like you're being magnanimous and civic by saying, "Rather than giving me stuff, donate to a charity!"

But  it doesn't work that way, and here's why:

The reason why it's perceived as rude to request charity donations in lieu of physical gifts is because it's always rude to expect and ask for gifts of any kind.

Whether it's your birthday, Christmas, wedding reception, etc. you should never expect or request gifts, because no one is ever obligated to give you a gift.

So when you are requesting a charitable donation you are actually directly asking your guests to give you something, same as if you were to directly asking them to but you a toaster or give you $200 in cash.

Your wedding guests are not obligated to give you any kind of gift, ever.  It's a polite thing to do, but it's not a rule of law, and it is 100% within the bounds of correct etiquette for your guests NOT to give you any kind of gift.

Now, most people I know were raised that it is rude not to give a gift, but you as the couple should never expect or mention receiving gifts in any way.

lyndausvi

I don't get why every event has to become a cause?

I'm one who totally eye rolls when couples announce how charitable they are at a wedding as I'm sitting here looking at a thousand dollar dress the bride is wearing, lord knows how much the flowers that about to die cost, eating filet of beef drinking my cocktail while watching two 4-figured photographers snapping photos.   It's like people have some sort of guilt about spending money on a party they try to ease it by making it a cause.

For the record, I attend a lot of charity events. I donate time and money to charities.     I'm totally fine throwing a party and/or attending a party that doesn't have a cause associated.  

 To be honest it's a nice change to attend something that is not turned into a cause.  Every day I'm being hit up to donate to a cause.   The other day I was asked at the local clothing store if I wanted to donate to something, then I walked next door to the pet store and I was asked if I wanted to donate to the local rescue, then I walked over to Whole Foods and I was asked if I wanted to donate to some cause.    I'm surprised the liquor store didn't ask if I wanted to donate a beer to the homeless guy outside. Who, of course, was holding a sign asking for money, then yelled at me for not giving anyway.  Don't get me started on the Go Fund Me poping up for just about everything and anything.     

Why can't a wedding just be a wedding?


B-listing is just rude.   Plain and simple.

madamerwin

Knottie1466815565 said:

I've been on the knot for over a year, ever since I got engaged. I changed my email address after I got married to accommodate my new last name and opened a new account. Just trying to give a little advice, that's all. 

Not touching on your other post, since PPs have it covered, but you DO realize you could have just changed the email address tied to your account, right? Opening a new TK account because your email address changed makes no sense.

Heffalump

Until I was on here, I had no idea that people actually thought B-listing was okay.  "You're only invited because someone we liked better turned us down."  In what world is that considered okay?  Oh, because they don't know?  A) People are generally smart enough to figure it out (and post about it here--this isn't theoretical), and as others have pointed out, if something is only okay because people don't know about it, then it's not really okay.

Jen4948

Knottie1466815565 said:

Looks like I'm a little late here- but having recently had my wedding I certainly have some advice.  I was in a similar situation and did in fact have a B list.  I did a lot of research on the subject and while it is seen as a taboo by some the reality is, a lot of people also think it is completely fine.  I truly never felt like I was being deliberately rude to my family and friends, but ya know, different people, different opinions, and I respect that.  Do what you think is right and be tasteful about how you approach it.  Honestly, we had great luck with it.  Lots of our rsvps came back very quickly and we were able to add without any trouble.  Ultimately we were both really happy we invited more people and the wedding was perfect. I completely understand the sentiment wanting to get as many of your loved ones there as possible, and if that is truly how you feel then go for it.  I mention this because everyone is adamantly against b lists (which again, I respect) but many brides have done the same, I wouldn't sweat it. Just give yourself some extra space for people who change their minds!  HOWEVER, what struck me about this thread is not the B list but the charity conversation. I also did this for my wedding.  I know 2 other couples who have done this for their wedding.  It never crossed my mind that it was rude, both as a bride and as an attendant.  If anything it contributed a certain warmness to our wedding.  For instance my nephew has cancer a many people donated to that cause.  It meant a lot to my family.  Also a friend of ours is from Nepal and raising money to rebuild towns destroyed by the earthquake and a lot of our friends donated to that cause.  Our friend from Nepal wasn't able to make it to the wedding but we recieved such an incredible letter from him thanking us for our help.  It made for some great conversations at the wedding, and I think it raised a lot of awareness for charities people may not have otherwise known about.  I suppose it may have offended people and we are just unaware, but given the incredibly positive affect it had I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.  I mean, take a look at the comments here, have a registry, don't have a registry...there are a million different people out there with a million different opinions and I think you should just do what is right for you.  Every couple is different, every wedding is different, and what works for someone else won't necessarily work for you.

Bad advice.

Etiquette is not "a million different opinions." It is about doing the right thing so that feelings are not hurt and you don't look like a jerk.

Sorry, but just because something that violates etiquette "works for you" doesn't mean you or anyone else should do it, and the fact that you did it once and "wouldn't hesitate to do it again" neither exempts you from rudeness the first time nor exempts you if you do it again in the future.

Leaving people off the original guest list and inviting them only after someone on the original guest list has declined indicates to the B-listers that their company wasn't really important to you, because if it was, you'd have chosen a venue and made other arrangements that allowed you to invite them in the first place. 

Your wedding was not a fundraiser. Your guests were not there to have their awareness raised about cancer nor about the Nepalese earthquake. Those who donated may have done so out of a sense of guilt induced by your need to bring it up. In other words, they felt "nudged" to donate to those causes, regardless of their own feelings, because of the issues and feelings surrounding the wedding. That was wrong of you, and it's why etiquette does not endorse using one's personal event as a shill for "causes." If you want to raise awareness or money for some cause, then hold a fundraiser that is clearly labeled as such. A wedding is not the time or place for it.

Neither B-listing nor using your wedding as a charity shill are gracious actions, and both violate etiquette. We're not going to applaud or endorse these actions, regardless of your intentions or reasons, and we're going to call out posters who endorse them. You're not exceptional.

DrillSergeantCat

Jen4948 said:

Bad advice.

Etiquette is not "a million different opinions." It is about doing the right thing so that feelings are not hurt and you don't look like a jerk.

Sorry, but just because something that violates etiquette "works for you" doesn't mean you or anyone else should do it, and the fact that you did it once and "wouldn't hesitate to do it again" neither exempts you from rudeness the first time nor exempts you if you do it again in the future.

Leaving people off the original guest list and inviting them only after someone on the original guest list has declined indicates to the B-listers that their company wasn't really important to you, because if it was, you'd have chosen a venue and made other arrangements that allowed you to invite them in the first place. 

Your wedding was not a fundraiser. Your guests were not there to have their awareness raised about cancer nor about the Nepalese earthquake. Those who donated may have done so out of a sense of guilt induced by your need to bring it up. In other words, they felt "nudged" to donate to those causes, regardless of their own feelings, because of the issues and feelings surrounding the wedding. That was wrong of you, and it's why etiquette does not endorse using one's personal event as a shill for "causes." If you want to raise awareness or money for some cause, then hold a fundraiser that is clearly labeled as such. A wedding is not the time or place for it.

Neither B-listing nor using your wedding as a charity shill are gracious actions, and both violate etiquette. We're not going to applaud or endorse these actions, regardless of your intentions or reasons, and we're going to call out posters who endorse them. You're not exceptional.

Just want to add... the only thing that should be raised at a wedding is a glass or a fork. 

MobKaz

Knottie1466815565 said:

Looks like I'm a little late here- but having recently had my wedding I certainly have some advice.  I was in a similar situation and did in fact have a B list. 
Knottie1466815565, are you saying that you chose a building over "loved" ones?  I honestly do not know anyone that would find that "completely fine". 
I did a lot of research on the subject and while it is seen as a taboo by some the reality is, a lot of people also think it is completely fine.  I truly never felt like I was being deliberately rude to my family and friends, but ya know, different people, different opinions, and I respect that. 
Deliberately rating guests in order of importance, obligation, or affection is about as rude as one can get.  I am always curious as to what scale is used to determine criteria for these ratings.
Do what you think is right and be tasteful about how you approach it.
If you have to add a cautionary disclaimer, that alone should send a signal that what is being done is not just rude, it is wrong.  How do you do "rude" tastefully?
 Honestly, we had great luck with it.  Lots of our rsvps came back very quickly and we were able to add without any trouble.  Ultimately we were both really happy we invited more people and the wedding was perfect.
Congratulations on having great luck with your rudeness.  I am so pleased it made you happy.  I wonder how your B listers would express their attitude knowing they were deferred guests.
I completely understand the sentiment wanting to get as many of your loved ones there as possible, and if that is truly how you feel then go for it.  I mention this because everyone is adamantly against b lists (which again, I respect) but many brides have done the same,
Every flipping time I read this excuse, the adage, "If someone told you to jump off a bridge....." reverberates in my head.
I wouldn't sweat it. Just give yourself some extra space for people who change their minds!  HOWEVER, what struck me about this thread is not the B list but the charity conversation. I also did this for my wedding.  I know 2 other couples who have done this for their wedding.  It never crossed my mind that it was rude, both as a bride and as an attendant.  If anything it contributed a certain warmness to our wedding.  For instance my nephew has cancer a many people donated to that cause.  It meant a lot to my family.  Also a friend of ours is from Nepal and raising money to rebuild towns destroyed by the earthquake and a lot of our friends donated to that cause.  Our friend from Nepal wasn't able to make it to the wedding but we recieved such an incredible letter from him thanking us for our help.  It made for some great conversations at the wedding, and I think it raised a lot of awareness for charities people may not have otherwise known about.  I suppose it may have offended people and we are just unaware, but given the incredibly positive affect it had I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.  I mean, take a look at the comments here, have a registry, don't have a registry...there are a million different people out there with a million different opinions and I think you should just do what is right for you.  Every couple is different, every wedding is different, and what works for someone else won't necessarily work for you.

Polite and thoughtful hosting works for everyone.

aurianna

@Knottie03547205
I want to get something straight:

Are you only sending out one batch of invitations (and not sending out new invitations every time you get a 'no'?)
Is everyone you sent a STD to getting an invitation?

If the answer to both of those questions is 'yes' then you aren't actually B-listing and I doubt many here would have a problem with it (as long as you have a contingency if any of the people who RSVPd on your website as no, turn around and say yes).

It's ok to only send STD's to VIPs. But as long as all guests get the same invite at the same time, everyone is an invited guest of the same level, so it's ok.


The B-listing I know I'm very against is when a person sends out new invites whenever they get a 'no.' Or people that send out a second round of invites. It means that not all invited guests are equal. Some guests had to RSVP earlier than is polite. Some guests don't get much notice, which also isn't polite. And here some invited guests are ranked differently than others.
Send all invitations out at the same time and you're golden.


As far as the charity goes...
It is rude to mention gifts of any kind because a gift should never be expected. Your saying "Your presence is our present" is really like saying "Normally you would have to bring a gift, however we are magnanimous, so you don't have to."
It comes off as if you think your guests can't not give you a present without your special permission. They don't need your permission. So don't say it, even though you don't mean anything negative by it.
Mentioning donating to charity is bad for the same reason above, but has some extra faults as well. Again, it makes it seem like you'd otherwise expect a gift. It's also your directly telling your guests exactly how to spend their money. And it has the added element of showboating. Charity is a private thing.
"But when you do merciful deeds, don't let your left hand know what your right hand does"
It can come off as your being flashy "look at what great people we are! We want you to give our wedding gifts to charity!"
Frankly it's really tacky.

By not registering (and by not saying anything about gifts, no gifts, or charity), many people will just give you cash. And then you can donate that cash to charity, in private. No one gets offended. Your charity of choice gets donations. And you don't come off looking like an attention whore.