Fork in the unwanted pregnancy road

banana468

DrillSergeantCat said:

@ShesSoCold you're right. When I think of the word selfish, I don't necessarily think of it as a strict negative. When I say selfish, I mean putting myself first. When I hide the pop-tarts because I want the last one, to me, that's selfish. I maybe need to find a better word.

@mrs.conn23 I've seen that study, too. It's an incredibly low percentage that feel any regret about their decision. Your point about pro-birthers is the reason I am pro-choice. These people who want to force a woman to birth a baby are the same ones bitching about having to pay $6 in taxes a year (on average) for welfare benefits for that same person. 

The US is abysmal, especially in the bible belt where I am, about sex education. They only want to teach abstinence and that has literally never worked. Want to give teens easier access to BC? Oh hell no! That promotes promiscuity. If that little slut doesn't want a baby she should keep her legs closed. <--I've actually seen this said. Gross, right? Everyone wants lower abortion rates where I am, but they're not willing to do a damn thing to help get them.

I've seen this as well.   And as someone who IS pro life I want to shake those who say this.    

kimmiinthemitten

banana468 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

@ShesSoCold you're right. When I think of the word selfish, I don't necessarily think of it as a strict negative. When I say selfish, I mean putting myself first. When I hide the pop-tarts because I want the last one, to me, that's selfish. I maybe need to find a better word.

@mrs.conn23 I've seen that study, too. It's an incredibly low percentage that feel any regret about their decision. Your point about pro-birthers is the reason I am pro-choice. These people who want to force a woman to birth a baby are the same ones bitching about having to pay $6 in taxes a year (on average) for welfare benefits for that same person. 

The US is abysmal, especially in the bible belt where I am, about sex education. They only want to teach abstinence and that has literally never worked. Want to give teens easier access to BC? Oh hell no! That promotes promiscuity. If that little slut doesn't want a baby she should keep her legs closed. <--I've actually seen this said. Gross, right? Everyone wants lower abortion rates where I am, but they're not willing to do a damn thing to help get them.

I've seen this as well.   And as someone who IS pro life I want to shake those who say this.    

I had a friend from college who became pregnant with their third child, their apartment caught on fire and they lost everything.  She had to quit her child because the costs of rebuilding were so high they couldn't afford daycare any  longer.  They had to go on assistance.  A "pro-life" friend of mine in a debate about government assistance programs lambasted her for having a child when they weren't financially ready.  

I'm too ragey for the world today.

banana468

kimmiinthemitten said:

banana468 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

@ShesSoCold you're right. When I think of the word selfish, I don't necessarily think of it as a strict negative. When I say selfish, I mean putting myself first. When I hide the pop-tarts because I want the last one, to me, that's selfish. I maybe need to find a better word.

@mrs.conn23 I've seen that study, too. It's an incredibly low percentage that feel any regret about their decision. Your point about pro-birthers is the reason I am pro-choice. These people who want to force a woman to birth a baby are the same ones bitching about having to pay $6 in taxes a year (on average) for welfare benefits for that same person. 

The US is abysmal, especially in the bible belt where I am, about sex education. They only want to teach abstinence and that has literally never worked. Want to give teens easier access to BC? Oh hell no! That promotes promiscuity. If that little slut doesn't want a baby she should keep her legs closed. <--I've actually seen this said. Gross, right? Everyone wants lower abortion rates where I am, but they're not willing to do a damn thing to help get them.

I've seen this as well.   And as someone who IS pro life I want to shake those who say this.    

I had a friend from college who became pregnant with their third child, their apartment caught on fire and they lost everything.  She had to quit her child because the costs of rebuilding were so high they couldn't afford daycare any  longer.  They had to go on assistance.  A "pro-life" friend of mine in a debate about government assistance programs lambasted her for having a child when they weren't financially ready.  

I'm too ragey for the world today.

There was a debate on a board I frequent about how 'we don't need' to make accommodations for pregnant women or have mandatory family leave.   It's really hard to not make women who say this understand that they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.    We need to be more than pro-birth.    

DrillSergeantCat

banana468 said:

There was a debate on a board I frequent about how 'we don't need' to make accommodations for pregnant women or have mandatory family leave.   It's really hard to not make women who say this understand that they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.    We need to be more than pro-birth.    

When I had to go back to work after 6 weeks, I bawled! I wasn't ready and Harrison wasn't ready. The effects on my having to return to work so soon, is that I quickly began having milk supply issues and had to begin supplementing with formula. Once you introduce formula, that causes another dip in milk production, so you have to give more formula. Canada has it right! Moms and babies need that time together. 

TrixieJess

DrillSergeantCat said:

banana468 said:

There was a debate on a board I frequent about how 'we don't need' to make accommodations for pregnant women or have mandatory family leave.   It's really hard to not make women who say this understand that they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.    We need to be more than pro-birth.    

When I had to go back to work after 6 weeks, I bawled! I wasn't ready and Harrison wasn't ready. The effects on my having to return to work so soon, is that I quickly began having milk supply issues and had to begin supplementing with formula. Once you introduce formula, that causes another dip in milk production, so you have to give more formula. Canada has it right! Moms and babies need that time together. 

Our system isn't perfect. We pay for our maternity leave with our taxes and we only get 55% of our earnings while off. Our maternity leave is 15 weeks for just mom. Parental leave is 35 weeks which can be taken and split by either partner. There is also 16 weeks of medical leave that can be taken prior to your due date in case of complications. Our jobs are guaranteed for 2 years after the birth or adoption of a child. The 50 weeks can also be used for adoption. There is talk about extending the leave to 18 months so we'll see if that comes to fruition and they just increased our monthly child tax credit.

Day care is really expensive in some areas and there are some areas that it is nonexistent. So we have some areas that need to be worked on. 

DrillSergeantCat

@TrixieJess do you get paid during the entire time or only the first 15 weeks? We have nothing here unless your employer offers it. Mine, fortunately, offered me short term disability for 6 weeks, 8 if I'd had a c-section, at 60% of my weekly pay. But because I had to add my son to my healthcare plan, they had to increase the amount of my health insurance and I had to catch up premiums. My pay went from a doable, but tight $250 a week to a paltry $110. 

banana468

Ditto.   My maternity leave was self-financed.

I had to bank the vacation time that I had which was about 3 weeks - that also meant that I had NO time to take off when I got back from leave.   I also took out a short-term disability insurance policy years before I was pregnant to cover the leave.   If I didn't have that then I would have been SOL to get paid in that time. 

And yeah - I went back to work at 7 weeks for DD and 6 for DS.   The pumping conditions were awful after DD and my supply tanked.   Luckily I had my own office by the time DS made his way into the world so I was able to close my door and do it on an as needed basis.    

mrsconn23

I am *incredibly* blessed in the fact that my company paid 100% salary for 6 weeks of maternity leave and we do not have to pay for short-term disability, it is company financed.  However after 6 weeks, you get nada unless you cover it with vacation.  And while on leave, you do not earn your vacation days (I think my rate is 2 days/month).   You have to be present on the 1st of the month (not on leave, you can be on vacation/take a sick day) to earn your vacation time. 

monkeysip

mrs.conn23 said:

LOL!  I think she's talking about Canada viewing it as more socially acceptable. 

Also, I read about a study not too long about how women who've had abortions don't feel shame or regret at the rates that pro-birthers (because they *are* not pro-life since there's not a single one I've met/read about who has any interest in helping the mother with the baby they want to force her to have..and you know, a lot of them are pro-death penalty) would have you believe.  And a lot of women felt a societal pressure to  feel those feelings and/or somehow mourn the decision to end their pregnancy.   I'll have to see if I can find it. 

Look, there ARE some truly pro-life people out there, myself included.

I am pro-life, but I'm also appalled at the state of healthcare, maternity leave, etc. in this country.  I want better rights for women, equal pay, equal protection, and an end to rape culture.  I am a feminist.  I want the death penalty abolished, and I oppose all torture, carpet bombing, etc.  I want a much more peaceful foreign policy, and I want to see more care for immigrants and refugees.  I want to see improvements in education, welfare, social services, and the adoption/foster programs.

I know that being anti-abortion is super unpopular around these boards, so I hesitate to say anything at all.  But I don't like being lumped in with the "pro-birthers"--and I agree with you, a lot of "pro-life" people are not pro-life in any other realm except for abortion.  Those people drive me crazy, and I probably spend a heck of a lot more time arguing with them than I ever do with pro-choice people.  I'm not a Republican, and in fact, I actually voted for Sanders.  

But there's others who share my views too.  So please don't think we're all like that, as much as you may vehemently disagree with the pro-life view.

ETA:  There's even a pretty substantial group called "pro-life democrats" who see things the way I do.  They are out there- I think only the hypocritical pro-lifers ever get any media attention.

VarunaTT

I would venture to say that 1. most people would set you outside the very bounds you just talked about when using pro-birther; however 2. I'm not pro-abortion.  I'm pro-choice.  There is a difference there.  I don't have any feelings about abortion one way or another, it's a medical procedure.  The messiness happens b/c of what abortion treats.

mrsconn23

monkeysip said:

mrs.conn23 said:

LOL!  I think she's talking about Canada viewing it as more socially acceptable. 

Also, I read about a study not too long about how women who've had abortions don't feel shame or regret at the rates that pro-birthers (because they *are* not pro-life since there's not a single one I've met/read about who has any interest in helping the mother with the baby they want to force her to have..and you know, a lot of them are pro-death penalty) would have you believe.  And a lot of women felt a societal pressure to  feel those feelings and/or somehow mourn the decision to end their pregnancy.   I'll have to see if I can find it. 

Look, there ARE some truly pro-life people out there, myself included.

I am pro-life, but I'm also appalled at the state of healthcare, maternity leave, etc. in this country.  I want better rights for women, equal pay, equal protection, and an end to rape culture.  I am a feminist.  I want the death penalty abolished, and I oppose all torture, carpet bombing, etc.  I want a much more peaceful foreign policy, and I want to see more care for immigrants and refugees.  I want to see improvements in education, welfare, social services, and the adoption/foster programs.

I know that being anti-abortion is super unpopular around these boards, so I hesitate to say anything at all.  But I don't like being lumped in with the "pro-birthers"--and I agree with you, a lot of "pro-life" people are not pro-life in any other realm except for abortion.  Those people drive me crazy, and I probably spend a heck of a lot more time arguing with them than I ever do with pro-choice people.  I'm not a Republican, and in fact, I actually voted for Sanders.  

But there's others who share my views too.  So please don't think we're all like that, as much as you may vehemently disagree with the pro-life view.

ETA:  There's even a pretty substantial group called "pro-life democrats" who see things the way I do.  They are out there- I think only the hypocritical pro-lifers ever get any media attention.

I'm personally pro-life, as in, for myself.  I would *not* terminate a pregnancy unless there was a medical need to do so and it would be devastating to me/the Mr. since the baby would be wanted.  

However, I am pro-choice for everyone else.  And if someone were to seek my counsel, I'd not be all, "Let's go to the clinic and get that baby out of you!" BUT, I would not judge someone for making that decision.  As I stated up-thread, it seems that there's a lot of forces against you and unless you're financially (and emotionally) comfortable...having kids can be quite a burden. 

Finally, when I'm referring to pro-birthers...It really is the rabid people who are all, "Make them have all the babies, but fuck them if they need help!  They're not getting a hand-out.  Pull those fucking bootstraps up and live with your decisions, you whore! You should have kept your legs closed and you need Jesus." 

TrixieJess

DrillSergeantCat said:

@TrixieJess do you get paid during the entire time or only the first 15 weeks? We have nothing here unless your employer offers it. Mine, fortunately, offered me short term disability for 6 weeks, 8 if I'd had a c-section, at 60% of my weekly pay. But because I had to add my son to my healthcare plan, they had to increase the amount of my health insurance and I had to catch up premiums. My pay went from a doable, but tight $250 a week to a paltry $110. 

Except for the two week wait period, the entire time. If your partner takes the rest of the leave, the wait period is waived. 

kimmiinthemitten

I work for an employer that has never had a commissioned employee take maternity leave (there aren't very many of us).  As such, our written policy is only relative to salaried employees so we'd have to create a policy just for me.

Despite how progressive my workplace can be sometimes, this worries me because they just denied flex time to an expecting employee because they didn't want to set a "precedent."  My male coworkers have had 5 babies since I started and I feel like if we do get pregnant, it'll be a punishment at a workplace.

It sucks that that is how it is in this country.  Again, damned if you do because we don't support working mothers and damned if you don't because of the stigma (both around abortion as well as being the non parent in a group of working parents).

charlotte989875

VarunaTT said:

I would venture to say that 1. most people would set you outside the very bounds you just talked about when using pro-birther; however 2. I'm not pro-abortion.  I'm pro-choice.  There is a difference there.  I don't have any feelings about abortion one way or another, it's a medical procedure.  The messiness happens b/c of what abortion treats.

This is where I'm at too. It's a legal medical procedure that women are entitled to decide for themselves if it appropriate for them in their particular circumstances. Full stop. 

Does birth control education need to be better? Yes. Does family leave need to be better? Yes. Do we need better care for women? Of course. But in my mind they are separate discussions. Yes they affect the decision to have a child, but really even if those systems were perfect abortion would still be a valid option. 

kerbohl

TrixieJess said:

kerbohl said:

ShesSoCold said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

@charlotte989875 I would never want the government to have a say in who has access to abortion. It's just my personal thoughts are that this instance seems selfish. TO ME. If I really think about it, though, most abortions are done for selfish reasons, so this one isn't any different. 

As for the life she envisioned...eh. Hardly, no one ever really lives the life they envisioned for themselves. I never pictured I'd be 39 before I finished school. I never pictured that I'd have 3 kids. I never pictured that I'd be married more than once. I never pictured I'd live in a crappy neighborhood, but still be proud of my home. The list goes on, you know. 

Putting yourself and your wants/needs first =/= selfish

SITB Except sometimes putting yourself and your wants/needs first IS selfish  ... I think you mean that in this particular case, it is not selfish.
The problem, here, however, is that this is the perfect storm for regretting an abortion in the future.  Society has been looking at abortion like it's a great thing (keep in mind I'm Canadian, so that's more the opinion here), but there are still huge repercussions, even when it is the best solution.  In this case, it's an acceptable solution to LW at the very most - she seems to be very upset at the timing of it, but not at the idea of having the child.  She needs to think about the psychological and emotion repercussions of an abortion.  It is never just a physical thing.  

If you are Canadian then you know that abortion wasn't legal for all women here until 1988. Before that they had to have their husband's consent or barring that 2 doctors signing off on it.

There are parts of THIS country (Canada)that don't have adequate access to abortion or proper maternal health care especially in the North or on Reserves. Oftentimes, these women don't even have a choice so get off your sanctimonious high horse. The LW has a right to choose, a hard fought for right.

ETF: Angry typing on a phone

Gee, I wasn't trying to be condescending - my point is that abortion is necessary to have available, but the emotional/psychological side effects seem to be too often glossed over, and I was worried that LW was not fully confronting those potential repercussions.  Also, my point about access was that it is legal in this country now. Yes, women in the past and women in isolated areas do/did not always have a choice.  How did I insult those women in my post?  I REALLY care about their mental health - being forced to have a child you don't want can be just as (and often moreso) damaging  as aborting a child that it turns out you did want. 
I have not read this study that people are talking about, and it sounds really interesting.  I'm sure that you can tell from what I've just said in these posts, but the low percentage of remorse is not what I've been hearing.  Anyone have more info about that?  Also, having no remorse does not mean that these women didn't have the emotional/psychological side effects that I'm talking about.  When you put down a pet, you don't regret that they are no longer in pain and that you did the right thing, but emotionally it's hard.  It nowhere near compares to the abortion debate, but it's the only example I could think of in terms of remorse versus emotional impact. 

VarunaTT

Citations/overview in these two write ups:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-women-abortion-idUSKCN0PR1KP20150717

http://time.com/3956781/women-abortion-regret-reproductive-health/

The sample was small; it's already a fairly small population to start with and they followed it for a nice length of time and considered divisions like income/race/age, etc.

mrsconn23

Thanks for doing the teh googlez for me @VarunaTT.  I was too lazy, LOL.

kerbohl

VarunaTT said:

Citations/overview in these two write ups:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-women-abortion-idUSKCN0PR1KP20150717

http://time.com/3956781/women-abortion-regret-reproductive-health/

The sample was small; it's already a fairly small population to start with and they followed it for a nice length of time and considered divisions like income/race/age, etc.

Thanks @VarunaTT!  I will give it a look.

kimmiinthemitten

So, I started to google "abortion leads to emotional" and "scarring" was the next word that populated, so I went with that.  So far, here is what pops up:

A study by the Elliott Group, a non profit who "believes proving how abortion hurts so many women is the key to ending the scourge of abortion."

The American Pregnancy Association who "seeks to support women and families by lobbying the legislature, businesses, and insurance providers to promote pregnancy and family health issues."

An unaccredited article on the effects of Post Abortion Syndrome (by the Texas for Life Coalition).

And then an article by Planned Parenthood that begins with "For more than 30 years, substantive research studies have shown that legally induced abortion does not pose mental health problems for women" that also reports the findings of alternative studies.

And then it goes back to one sided articles by pro-life organizations.

glasgowtolondon

kimmiinthemitten said:

So, I started to google "abortion leads to emotional" and "scarring" was the next word that populated, so I went with that.  So far, here is what pops up:

A study by the Elliott Group, a non profit who "believes proving how abortion hurts so many women is the key to ending the scourge of abortion."

The American Pregnancy Association who "seeks to support women and families by lobbying the legislature, businesses, and insurance providers to promote pregnancy and family health issues."

An unaccredited article on the effects of Post Abortion Syndrome (by the Texas for Life Coalition).

And then an article by Planned Parenthood that begins with "For more than 30 years, substantive research studies have shown that legally induced abortion does not pose mental health problems for women" that also reports the findings of alternative studies.

And then it goes back to one sided articles by pro-life organizations.

Look, I have no studies to point to other than my own experience. I have, in my 32yrs years, had cause to seek counselling on two separate occasions. Neither of these were due to this. I know that the popular rhetoric is that it is something a woman will regret for the rest of her life - and I absolutely acknowledge there will be women for whom this is true and a struggle to come to terms with - but that isn't my experience. I do not think abortion is a 'great thing' any more or less than I think it is a necessary thing, but I also know that for me it was the right decision. I have never doubted that. I also don't think that I am a bad person because I don't regret my decision. I have nothing else to add.

bohobrideCA

Since this has become mostly anecdotal I'll join in. I've had an abortion as a teenager when my birth control failed and never had a second of regret. My mother, my father, multiple friends, multiple cousins and multiple ex boyfriends are among those that have told me about their own abortions. Some of them are pro-choice, some are not, most are parents now, none of them regretted it. 
I felt relief and when I look back I feel relief again. The pregnancy was one of the most emotional and stressful times in my life, the abortion was not. 

charlotte989875

Thank you at @glasgowtolondon and @bohobrideCA for share your stories. I appreciate that you felt like you could do that here. 

missJeanLouise

I had an abortion at 17 and I thank heaven everyday for that option. Though I continued dating my boyfriend at the time for almost 3 more years afterward. He was abusive; emotionally, financially, psychologically, and moving towards physically. I eventually had to get an order of protection against him and he spent 2 weeks in jail for violating it. I have never had any regrets about the abortion. At the time, I knew I wouldn't be able to give a child the life they deserved and since I grew up next to a foster home there was no way I was going to force them into that so termination was the most logical answer. I had no way of knowing that relationship would destruct the way it did, but I am so thankful there wasn't a child in the middle of the madness.

Heffalump

kimmiinthemitten said:

So, I started to google "abortion leads to emotional" and "scarring" was the next word that populated, so I went with that.  So far, here is what pops up:

A study by the Elliott Group, a non profit who "believes proving how abortion hurts so many women is the key to ending the scourge of abortion."

The American Pregnancy Association who "seeks to support women and families by lobbying the legislature, businesses, and insurance providers to promote pregnancy and family health issues."

An unaccredited article on the effects of Post Abortion Syndrome (by the Texas for Life Coalition).

And then an article by Planned Parenthood that begins with "For more than 30 years, substantive research studies have shown that legally induced abortion does not pose mental health problems for women" that also reports the findings of alternative studies.

And then it goes back to one sided articles by pro-life organizations.

SITB

I wonder how many studies those organizations have done on the emotional health of women who have:

a) chosen abortion and had to overcome multiple obstacles to do so (i.e. waiting period; long drives due to abortion providers having to close due to unnecessary restrictions; time lost from work and/or taking care of kids due to needing to make multiple trips due to waiting periods AND long distances; forcing them to listen to a patronizing lecture about fetal development and/or viewing an ultrasound, etc.)

b) women who were unable to obtain an abortion and had to carry, give birth to, and sometimes raise a child whom they were ill-equipped to care for, for any number of reasons (emotional, financial)

Y'know, since they're so concerned about women's emotional health. 



No, you know what, I was going to end it there, but I have to add that what I hate so much about this approach is that it treats women is if they're too dumb to know what they're doing and understand the consequences, so this outside group is going to forcibly end legal abortion in order to save these women from themselves.

kimmiinthemitten

@heffalump

SaintPaulGal

I think the letter writer is making this way too complicated.  

She didn't want a baby (right now in her life) when she took her pill that morning or when she had her IUD inserted or when she got her shot/implant/whatever form of birth control she is using.  If this hadn't happened, she would have happily kept on using the miracle of modern family planning to avoid procreating for the next 5 years or whatever until she felt ready to bring a baby into the world.  

The paradigm shouldn't have to change radically just because sperm met egg. She can continue using the miracle of modern planning to avoid procreating for the next 5 years or whatever until she felt ready to bring a baby into the world. 

She shouldn't feel any worse or more conflicted about this than any previous time when she dropped a tampon in the trash can.  Each time she ovulates and each time he comes, those are cells that have the potential to grow into a baby if conditions are right.  Right now she has some cells dividing in her uterus that have the potential to grow into a baby if conditions are right.  From the sound of things, conditions aren't right.

short+sassy

I live in a state (Louisiana) with a lot of pro-life sentiment. Despite being in the "top ten" for both "most expensive" and "worst quality" healthcare.  But that is a rant for another day.

My all time least favorite bumper sticker I've seen around here is, "Y'all's Mama was Pro-Life."

NO. NO. NO.  What a ridiculous thing to say!  Lots of mothers are Pro-Choice.  CHOOSING to have a baby, does not automatically make someone Pro-Life.

And that whole trying to end run around the Supreme Court Roe vs. Wade decision with some states requiring doctors performing abortions to have hospital admitting privileges...essentially making it impossible for the majority of abortion providers to exist*...because it's all for a "woman's own good".  That B.S. was recently struck down by SCOTUS (I believe).  Or there needs to be a waiting period or she needs to be given pamphlets/watch a movie...because she just doesn't know the seriousness.  It's all for her own good.  So, abortions=bad, infantilizing women=good. 

My whole thing is, if a person/group is pro-life, that's fine.  But just own up to it.  Be against the terminating of a fetus.  I don't agree, but can at least understand where that comes from.  But don't "song and dance" it that "you're just trying to do what is best for the mother", just because the legal question of abortion was decided decades ago.  This was all general "you", not directed at anyone on this board.

*My understanding of the reason it is difficult for most abortion providers to get hospital admitting privileges is because for a doctor to get hospital admitting privileges...they need a history of patients who occasionally go to the hospital.  It is extremely rare for a patient having an abortion to need to go to the hospital during or afterwards.  Hence, abortion providers don't have enough patients going to the hospital on an annual basis to warrant privileges.    

ILoveBeachMusic

short+sassy said:

I live in a state (Louisiana) with a lot of pro-life sentiment. Despite being in the "top ten" for both "most expensive" and "worst quality" healthcare.  But that is a rant for another day.

My all time least favorite bumper sticker I've seen around here is, "Y'all's Mama was Pro-Life."

NO. NO. NO.  What a ridiculous thing to say!  Lots of mothers are Pro-Choice.  CHOOSING to have a baby, does not automatically make someone Pro-Life.

And that whole trying to end run around the Supreme Court Roe vs. Wade decision with some states requiring doctors performing abortions to have hospital admitting privileges...essentially making it impossible for the majority of abortion providers to exist*...because it's all for a "woman's own good".  That B.S. was recently struck down by SCOTUS (I believe).  Or there needs to be a waiting period or she needs to be given pamphlets/watch a movie...because she just doesn't know the seriousness.  It's all for her own good.  So, abortions=bad, infantilizing women=good. 

My whole thing is, if a person/group is pro-life, that's fine.  But just own up to it.  Be against the terminating of a fetus.  I don't agree, but can at least understand where that comes from.  But don't "song and dance" it that "you're just trying to do what is best for the mother", just because the legal question of abortion was decided decades ago.  This was all general "you", not directed at anyone on this board.

*My understanding of the reason it is difficult for most abortion providers to get hospital admitting privileges is because for a doctor to get hospital admitting privileges...they need a history of patients who occasionally go to the hospital.  It is extremely rare for a patient having an abortion to need to go to the hospital during or afterwards.  Hence, abortion providers don't have enough patients going to the hospital on an annual basis to warrant privileges.    

Thanks for clarifying the bolded because I couldn't understand why that was a big deal. All the doctors I have, have admitting privileges so I couldn't understand what the problem was in requiring doctors who perform abortions to have admitting privileges. So in the event a woman does need to go to the hospital, who would admit her if not the doctor who performs the abortion?

kimmiinthemitten

ILoveBeachMusic said:

short+sassy said:

I live in a state (Louisiana) with a lot of pro-life sentiment. Despite being in the "top ten" for both "most expensive" and "worst quality" healthcare.  But that is a rant for another day.

My all time least favorite bumper sticker I've seen around here is, "Y'all's Mama was Pro-Life."

NO. NO. NO.  What a ridiculous thing to say!  Lots of mothers are Pro-Choice.  CHOOSING to have a baby, does not automatically make someone Pro-Life.

And that whole trying to end run around the Supreme Court Roe vs. Wade decision with some states requiring doctors performing abortions to have hospital admitting privileges...essentially making it impossible for the majority of abortion providers to exist*...because it's all for a "woman's own good".  That B.S. was recently struck down by SCOTUS (I believe).  Or there needs to be a waiting period or she needs to be given pamphlets/watch a movie...because she just doesn't know the seriousness.  It's all for her own good.  So, abortions=bad, infantilizing women=good. 

My whole thing is, if a person/group is pro-life, that's fine.  But just own up to it.  Be against the terminating of a fetus.  I don't agree, but can at least understand where that comes from.  But don't "song and dance" it that "you're just trying to do what is best for the mother", just because the legal question of abortion was decided decades ago.  This was all general "you", not directed at anyone on this board.

*My understanding of the reason it is difficult for most abortion providers to get hospital admitting privileges is because for a doctor to get hospital admitting privileges...they need a history of patients who occasionally go to the hospital.  It is extremely rare for a patient having an abortion to need to go to the hospital during or afterwards.  Hence, abortion providers don't have enough patients going to the hospital on an annual basis to warrant privileges.    

Thanks for clarifying the bolded because I couldn't understand why that was a big deal. All the doctors I have, have admitting privileges so I couldn't understand what the problem was in requiring doctors who perform abortions to have admitting privileges. So in the event a woman does need to go to the hospital, who would admit her if not the doctor who performs the abortion?

Probably the doctor on staff, but that happens literally 0.25% of the time. 

short+sassy

kimmiinthemitten said:

ILoveBeachMusic said:

short+sassy said:

I live in a state (Louisiana) with a lot of pro-life sentiment. Despite being in the "top ten" for both "most expensive" and "worst quality" healthcare.  But that is a rant for another day.

My all time least favorite bumper sticker I've seen around here is, "Y'all's Mama was Pro-Life."

NO. NO. NO.  What a ridiculous thing to say!  Lots of mothers are Pro-Choice.  CHOOSING to have a baby, does not automatically make someone Pro-Life.

And that whole trying to end run around the Supreme Court Roe vs. Wade decision with some states requiring doctors performing abortions to have hospital admitting privileges...essentially making it impossible for the majority of abortion providers to exist*...because it's all for a "woman's own good".  That B.S. was recently struck down by SCOTUS (I believe).  Or there needs to be a waiting period or she needs to be given pamphlets/watch a movie...because she just doesn't know the seriousness.  It's all for her own good.  So, abortions=bad, infantilizing women=good. 

My whole thing is, if a person/group is pro-life, that's fine.  But just own up to it.  Be against the terminating of a fetus.  I don't agree, but can at least understand where that comes from.  But don't "song and dance" it that "you're just trying to do what is best for the mother", just because the legal question of abortion was decided decades ago.  This was all general "you", not directed at anyone on this board.

*My understanding of the reason it is difficult for most abortion providers to get hospital admitting privileges is because for a doctor to get hospital admitting privileges...they need a history of patients who occasionally go to the hospital.  It is extremely rare for a patient having an abortion to need to go to the hospital during or afterwards.  Hence, abortion providers don't have enough patients going to the hospital on an annual basis to warrant privileges.    

Thanks for clarifying the bolded because I couldn't understand why that was a big deal. All the doctors I have, have admitting privileges so I couldn't understand what the problem was in requiring doctors who perform abortions to have admitting privileges. So in the event a woman does need to go to the hospital, who would admit her if not the doctor who performs the abortion?

Probably the doctor on staff, but that happens literally 0.25% of the time. 

Or whatever happened back in the days when women went to the ER, BLEEDING TO DEATH from back alley abortions because they were illegal at the time.  But no, it's all for "women's health" that we make abortions as difficult as possible to obtain.

One of the most vehement proponents I have ever met for pro-choice issues was a family friend's brother.  Politically and socially, he was about as conservative as they come...except when it came to abortions.  He was in residency at an ER, back in the days when they were illegal.  He said they would have a few women a week be rushed in, due to the effects of attempting an abortion.

Some of them died from loss of blood.  Most of them were saved, but sometimes at the cost of one or both of their hands or feet.  Because they'd been given "last resort" medicine to stop the bleeding, but that same medicine could also stop the blood flow to extremities for too long.  He said seeing young women, in the prime of their life, dying or losing a foot/hand...when it could so easily have been avoided with access to proper medical care for the termination of their pregnancy...was one of the worst parts of his residency, because their suffering was just so unnecessary.