Presidential Debate #1

banana468

Yeah - It's not that fact checking is biased against the GOP.   It's that you can't spin the facts to suit yourself when you want.   

Basically, nothing counts as a thing he said unless he agrees to it.   And a tweet is the equivalent of toilet paper to him.

kimmiinthemitten

I read somewhere that he lies 53% of the time and Hillary lies 12% of the time. He lies so much he lies when it's verifiable.

For example, Pence even tried saying the years old tweet about global warming being a hoax was a joke. Savannah Guthrie said no, this isn't a one-off, there's at least 4 other tweets still available on his Twitter feed!

charlotte989875

kimmiinthemitten said:

I read somewhere that he lies 53% of the time and Hillary lies 12% of the time. He lies so much he lies when it's verifiable.

For example, Pence even tried saying the years old tweet about global warming being a hoax was a joke. Savannah Guthrie said no, this isn't a one-off, there's at least 4 other tweets still available on his Twitter feed!

Here's the NYT analysis on how often the candidates are (and are not) telling the truth. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/13/opinion/campaign-stops/all-politicians-lie-some-lie-more-than-others.html?_r=0

Politico has a good graph too, but I can't seem to find it this morning. This isn't the one I was thinking of, but it's not bad http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/jun/29/fact-checking-2016-clinton-trump/

banana468

The most infuriating aspects of Trump to me are his tap dances:
1) Refusing to acknowledge his own statements.   Flippant responses that something like a Tweet carries little weight.   Statements that Howard Stern show answers aren't correct but Shawn Hannity ones are.   

2) He did not answer Holt last night directly when called out on Clinton looking presidential.   He pulled BS on stamina and she schooled him on her response.

3) Not called out last night at all but his call for her assassination at least twice.

4) Refusing to acknowledge that he's even BEING audited.   

5) Saying in the debate that not paying your workers / vendors is business.     Yeah, if you're looking for ways to slime yourself out of it.

6) His foundation did not come up.   Blind trust did not come up.   

thefanciestbeckler

kimmiinthemitten said:

thefanciestbeckler said:

I didn't plan to, but I'm watching.

The thing that is striking me the most is the overt racism that Trump is displaying. No matter the topic. Does he even realize that this whole "President" thing is far bigger than just our country??? I frankly don't see him being able to have civil, informed relationships with other countries (and God forbid they have a different skin color), which is just so unacceptable. 

My favorite was when he bragged about not discriminating against wealthy minorities in West Palm Beach.

Right??? I couldn't get over that. I was thinking "yeah... Definitely not helping your case there, buddy."

ETF grammar

southernbelle0915

I think Lester was calculated. Like "it's The Donald, whatever he says will be a train wreck" and then he let the train wreck naturally happen before the eyes of 100 million Americans. It was 100% inevitable. Both he and Hillary knew it and they both let it happen. Look how much of the conversation today is geared toward Trump's unhinged, nonsensical ramblings and aggressive, juvenile behavior. 

He gave America a preview of exactly what it would be like to have him as president - a guy who has no fucking idea what he's talking about and is too narcistic to admit it; a guy who thinks he totally understands local issues because he "has property there"; a guy who completely unravels when someone makes a personal comment (also calculated by Hillary)... I could go on. 

He straight up denied saying things that are really well documented (and recently) - like video interviews, his own tweets, etc. He is his own brand of crazy. And SHE'S the one who's untrustworthy? Come on...

I'm with @TheMostHappy - there was a total double standard going into it. He could have won if he had simply kept his composure and not sounded like a total jackass. She had to win by being completely flawless both in policy, execution and personality. And you can tell she was coached to "smile". Barf.

ETA: Plus and also, don't even get me started on the sexist reporting about how Hillary needs to be more likeable if she wants to win and in the same article talk about how angry, ranty, and insincere Trump is. I'm looking at you, CNN. 

STARMOON44

I didn't think she came off as coached to smile at all. I think she genuinely loves debates and enjoyed herself. 

kimmiinthemitten

southernbelle0915 said:

I'm with @TheMostHappy - there was a total double standard going into it. He could have won if he had simply kept his composure and not sounded like a total jackass. She had to win by being completely flawless both in policy, execution and personality. And you can tell she was coached to "smile". Barf.

ETA: Plus and also, don't even get me started on the sexist reporting about how Hillary needs to be more likeable if she wants to win and in the same article talk about how angry, ranty, and insincere Trump is. I'm looking at you, CNN. 

I joked last night that I hoped people felt she smiled enough, however, some of those smiles and grins made for beautiful, perfectly timed moments in the debate that I admittedly felt a woman could pull off better than a man.

SaintPaulGal

monkeysip said:

This is just so bad.  Trump is just unbearable.

I love politics.  I love elections and debates.  I teach government.  And this election, and especially this debate has sucked every ounce of joy out of politics.  It's just become so depressing.

Same!  All of this!  (Except for the teaching government part.)

I am a politics person.  I have volunteered for campaigns.  I have gone door to door and I have phone banked and I have manned info tables.  I have been an elected delegate at local and state conventions.  I have been employed as a political organizer.  I would consider myself a highly engaged citizen.

This year I Just.  Fucking.  Can't.

I like Hilary.  I did before she won the nomination (although I would have happily voted for Bernie if he had gotten it.)  I hate Trump.  I did before he won the nomination.  I just want this whole thing to be over.

At least I have local politics that I can follow without getting a rage-frustration aneurysm.  But my district is so blue that we might as well all be smurfs, which although awesome does mean that none of the contests are...well...much of a contest and therefore not all that engaging.

labro

STARMOON44 said:

I didn't think she came off as coached to smile at all. I think she genuinely loves debates and enjoyed herself. 

I'm with you here actually. Some of her past debates with Bernie I don't think she...I guess performed well is the word in regards to her facial expressions and attitude, but last night was the most natural I feel like I've seen her.

TheMostHappy15

STARMOON44 said:

I didn't think she came off as coached to smile at all. I think she genuinely loves debates and enjoyed herself. 

I also think part of what worked so well about her smiling was any woman watching could relate to that smile- the smile of a woman patiently just powering through while a man less qualified than her screams his opinions over her. Every one of us has had to plaster on that smile while dealing with a boss/coworker/teacher/relative who thinks he has a right to be more heard simply because he's a man, and she pulled it off with such grace and composure.

MairePoppy

labro said:

NPR did a live fact check alongside the debate. Did anyone else follow?

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/26/495115346/fact-check-first-presidential-debate

I haven't checked it yet this morning to see what updates and additional commentary they made, but it was pretty fascinating.

I tried to keep up with the drinking games but I realized that this morning would've been a bad bad time if I had drunk every time someone said NAFTA or women or family or middle class.

I followed for a few minutes, but the lies were so obvious that it wasn't necessary. I'll be reading the follow up for details.

Trump supporters should be offended that their man didn't even bother studying or practicing for the debate. If I was on his team, I'd be pissed.

kimmiinthemitten

MairePoppy said:

labro said:

NPR did a live fact check alongside the debate. Did anyone else follow?

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/26/495115346/fact-check-first-presidential-debate

I haven't checked it yet this morning to see what updates and additional commentary they made, but it was pretty fascinating.

I tried to keep up with the drinking games but I realized that this morning would've been a bad bad time if I had drunk every time someone said NAFTA or women or family or middle class.

I followed for a few minutes, but the lies were so obvious that it wasn't necessary. I'll be reading the follow up for details.

Trump supporters should be offended that their man didn't even bother studying or practicing for the debate. If I was on his team, I'd be pissed.

Sadly, most of his supporters are turned on by his bullying antics and think he performed flawlessly.  They're less interested in the details as they are their sense that they should be right regardless of what the facts actually say.

peachy13

kimmiinthemitten said:

MairePoppy said:

labro said:

NPR did a live fact check alongside the debate. Did anyone else follow?

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/26/495115346/fact-check-first-presidential-debate

I haven't checked it yet this morning to see what updates and additional commentary they made, but it was pretty fascinating.

I tried to keep up with the drinking games but I realized that this morning would've been a bad bad time if I had drunk every time someone said NAFTA or women or family or middle class.

I followed for a few minutes, but the lies were so obvious that it wasn't necessary. I'll be reading the follow up for details.

Trump supporters should be offended that their man didn't even bother studying or practicing for the debate. If I was on his team, I'd be pissed.

Sadly, most of his supporters are turned on by his bullying antics and think he performed flawlessly.  They're less interested in the details as they are their sense that they should be right regardless of what the facts actually say.

This is true and really scary. I watched last night and read many tweets and articles -- there is an incredible amount of support for Trump from people who really, actually think he won last night and performed perfectly. 

MCmeow

Maybe one day presidential candidates will talk about climate change instead of gossip. I think this debate was a fail all around but I'm glad Trump looked like an idiot as usual, but as usual I doubt that will affect him.

TheMostHappy15

MCmeow said:

Maybe one day presidential candidates will talk about climate change instead of gossip. I think this debate was a fail all around but I'm glad Trump looked like an idiot as usual, but as usual I doubt that will affect him.

-----Stuck in the Box-----

I think all the "But they didn't even touch on X" complaints are kind of unfair considering it's the first of three debates. We knew going in this one was going to be about trade, security, and race relations... all of which are pretty worthy of discussion (not sure what the gossip you're referring to is?). You can't hit every important issue in every debate (or even in all three debates, unfortunately).

spockforprez

Sorry I haven't responded all day, but I just want to say my comment about facts being biased against the GOP was a joke (and a recycled one at that). Clearly facts themselves cannot have a bias. 

southernbelle0915

TheMostHappy15 said:

MCmeow said:

Maybe one day presidential candidates will talk about climate change instead of gossip. I think this debate was a fail all around but I'm glad Trump looked like an idiot as usual, but as usual I doubt that will affect him.

-----Stuck in the Box-----

I think all the "But they didn't even touch on X" complaints are kind of unfair considering it's the first of three debates. We knew going in this one was going to be about trade, security, and race relations... all of which are pretty worthy of discussion (not sure what the gossip you're referring to is?). You can't hit every important issue in every debate (or even in all three debates, unfortunately).

I took this as more of "I wish they'd talk about real stuff vs. pointless stuff". But, to be specific, climate change did come up and instead of talk about the issue, they talked about who said what and when they said it instead.

kylexo

southernbelle0915 said:

TheMostHappy15 said:

MCmeow said:

Maybe one day presidential candidates will talk about climate change instead of gossip. I think this debate was a fail all around but I'm glad Trump looked like an idiot as usual, but as usual I doubt that will affect him.

-----Stuck in the Box-----

I think all the "But they didn't even touch on X" complaints are kind of unfair considering it's the first of three debates. We knew going in this one was going to be about trade, security, and race relations... all of which are pretty worthy of discussion (not sure what the gossip you're referring to is?). You can't hit every important issue in every debate (or even in all three debates, unfortunately).

I took this as more of "I wish they'd talk about real stuff vs. pointless stuff". But, to be specific, climate change did come up and instead of talk about the issue, they talked about who said what and when they said it instead.

It's hard to talk about real issues when one candidate spends the whole debate gas lighting and denying he's said or done things that are very well documented. I just couldn't even believe what I was watching was real life.

hellohkb

It amazes me that people watched the debate and still think to themselves, "Trump would make a great president!!"

banana468

hellohkb said:

It amazes me that people watched the debate and still think to themselves, "Trump would make a great president!!"

The only thing I can think is that there are some people who are just going to vote for the platform.   Those people would have to watch Trump go up to the stage and set Hillary on fire before they can be persuaded to vote for a Democrat.

I've had these debates with family members and they're either staunchly the above or they think Hillary is worse and their minds are made up.   There is no convincing those who refuse to listen.  

madamerwin

This is the funniest thing I saw on social media after the debate:

kimmiinthemitten

So today, someone posted a video with super damning evidence that she conspired with Lester Holt to cut off Trump for her zingers by scratching her nose.

I pointed out that Holt cut off Trump after his 2 minute and 30 second time limits per the debate guidelines.  But my opinion doesn't count because I'm voting for her.  People will find a conspiracy anywhere!

julieanne912

banana468 said:

hellohkb said:

It amazes me that people watched the debate and still think to themselves, "Trump would make a great president!!"

The only thing I can think is that there are some people who are just going to vote for the platform.   Those people would have to watch Trump go up to the stage and set Hillary on fire before they can be persuaded to vote for a Democrat.

I've had these debates with family members and they're either staunchly the above or they think Hillary is worse and their minds are made up.   There is no convincing those who refuse to listen.  

This is how most of my friends are who are voting for Trump.  It's less about him, and more about the party and their conservative values.  

The same could be said for some Hillary supporters, including myself.  She's not my favorite person, but I believe in a lot of what she, and the democratic party, stand for, and oppose the republican party's standpoints on many issues.

kimmiinthemitten

julieanne912 said:

banana468 said:

hellohkb said:

It amazes me that people watched the debate and still think to themselves, "Trump would make a great president!!"

The only thing I can think is that there are some people who are just going to vote for the platform.   Those people would have to watch Trump go up to the stage and set Hillary on fire before they can be persuaded to vote for a Democrat.

I've had these debates with family members and they're either staunchly the above or they think Hillary is worse and their minds are made up.   There is no convincing those who refuse to listen.  

This is how most of my friends are who are voting for Trump.  It's less about him, and more about the party and their conservative values.  

The same could be said for some Hillary supporters, including myself.  She's not my favorite person, but I believe in a lot of what she, and the democratic party, stand for, and oppose the republican party's standpoints on many issues.

This makes me laugh because Trump doesn't follow traditional conservative values.  Conservative values believe in smaller government and leaving as much up to the states as possible.  The bulk of his platform will require tons of government oversight:  the wall, stop and frisk, immigration, national school of choice, national right to carry, the list goes on.

And taxing companies who manufacture goods outside of the US?  How much more socialist of a policy can you find?

banana468

kimmiinthemitten said:

julieanne912 said:

banana468 said:

hellohkb said:

It amazes me that people watched the debate and still think to themselves, "Trump would make a great president!!"

The only thing I can think is that there are some people who are just going to vote for the platform.   Those people would have to watch Trump go up to the stage and set Hillary on fire before they can be persuaded to vote for a Democrat.

I've had these debates with family members and they're either staunchly the above or they think Hillary is worse and their minds are made up.   There is no convincing those who refuse to listen.  

This is how most of my friends are who are voting for Trump.  It's less about him, and more about the party and their conservative values.  

The same could be said for some Hillary supporters, including myself.  She's not my favorite person, but I believe in a lot of what she, and the democratic party, stand for, and oppose the republican party's standpoints on many issues.

This makes me laugh because Trump doesn't follow traditional conservative values.  Conservative values believe in smaller government and leaving as much up to the states as possible.  The bulk of his platform will require tons of government oversight:  the wall, stop and frisk, immigration, national school of choice, national right to carry, the list goes on.

And taxing companies who manufacture goods outside of the US?  How much more socialist of a policy can you find?

Yeah - I honestly think if he didn't have Pence then Republicans wouldn't know WTF to do.   All I think they're hoping for at this point is an R next to the office holder.

Oh, and Mr. Trump, you do realize that YOUR GOODS are produced outside of the country right?   Those Donald Trump suits and Ivanka shoes aren't made in NYC. 

kimmiinthemitten

banana468 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

julieanne912 said:

banana468 said:

hellohkb said:

It amazes me that people watched the debate and still think to themselves, "Trump would make a great president!!"

The only thing I can think is that there are some people who are just going to vote for the platform.   Those people would have to watch Trump go up to the stage and set Hillary on fire before they can be persuaded to vote for a Democrat.

I've had these debates with family members and they're either staunchly the above or they think Hillary is worse and their minds are made up.   There is no convincing those who refuse to listen.  

This is how most of my friends are who are voting for Trump.  It's less about him, and more about the party and their conservative values.  

The same could be said for some Hillary supporters, including myself.  She's not my favorite person, but I believe in a lot of what she, and the democratic party, stand for, and oppose the republican party's standpoints on many issues.

This makes me laugh because Trump doesn't follow traditional conservative values.  Conservative values believe in smaller government and leaving as much up to the states as possible.  The bulk of his platform will require tons of government oversight:  the wall, stop and frisk, immigration, national school of choice, national right to carry, the list goes on.

And taxing companies who manufacture goods outside of the US?  How much more socialist of a policy can you find?

Yeah - I honestly think if he didn't have Pence then Republicans wouldn't know WTF to do.   All I think they're hoping for at this point is an R next to the office holder.

Oh, and Mr. Trump, you do realize that YOUR GOODS are produced outside of the country right?   Those Donald Trump suits and Ivanka shoes aren't made in NYC. 

I had this argument with a friend yesterday!  If he really cared about American jobs, he'd produce his goods here and not in 12 other countries and he wouldn't hire illegal immigrants.  If he cared about American manufacturing jobs, he'd drive an American car.  If he cared about blue collar workers livelihoods, he wouldn't short pay his contracts. 

His presidential politics mean nothing to me when his business practices over the past 50 years have been the exact opposite.

And I'm sick and damn tired of him playing the Michigan card; our unemployment is lower than the federal average, our average manufacturing wage is higher and we're doing just fine - even with a scheduled automotive slow down next year, which has  nothing to do with where the Focus is being made and everything to do with how Americans buy cars.

banana468

kimmiinthemitten said:

banana468 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

julieanne912 said:

banana468 said:

hellohkb said:

It amazes me that people watched the debate and still think to themselves, "Trump would make a great president!!"

The only thing I can think is that there are some people who are just going to vote for the platform.   Those people would have to watch Trump go up to the stage and set Hillary on fire before they can be persuaded to vote for a Democrat.

I've had these debates with family members and they're either staunchly the above or they think Hillary is worse and their minds are made up.   There is no convincing those who refuse to listen.  

This is how most of my friends are who are voting for Trump.  It's less about him, and more about the party and their conservative values.  

The same could be said for some Hillary supporters, including myself.  She's not my favorite person, but I believe in a lot of what she, and the democratic party, stand for, and oppose the republican party's standpoints on many issues.

This makes me laugh because Trump doesn't follow traditional conservative values.  Conservative values believe in smaller government and leaving as much up to the states as possible.  The bulk of his platform will require tons of government oversight:  the wall, stop and frisk, immigration, national school of choice, national right to carry, the list goes on.

And taxing companies who manufacture goods outside of the US?  How much more socialist of a policy can you find?

Yeah - I honestly think if he didn't have Pence then Republicans wouldn't know WTF to do.   All I think they're hoping for at this point is an R next to the office holder.

Oh, and Mr. Trump, you do realize that YOUR GOODS are produced outside of the country right?   Those Donald Trump suits and Ivanka shoes aren't made in NYC. 

I had this argument with a friend yesterday!  If he really cared about American jobs, he'd produce his goods here and not in 12 other countries and he wouldn't hire illegal immigrants.  If he cared about American manufacturing jobs, he'd drive an American car.  If he cared about blue collar workers livelihoods, he wouldn't short pay his contracts. 

His presidential politics mean nothing to me when his business practices over the past 50 years have been the exact opposite.

And I'm sick and damn tired of him playing the Michigan card; our unemployment is lower than the federal average, our average manufacturing wage is higher and we're doing just fine - even with a scheduled automotive slow down next year, which has  nothing to do with where the Focus is being made and everything to do with how Americans buy cars.

Which is why I try not to have this discussion with Trump supporters anymore.

They either start to make excuses for why he did things or they turn it to Hillary.

It's not a conversation that's worth my time.

Similarly as someone pro-life I don't debate Trump V. Hillary.   I don't love Hillary's platform there either.   (I'm also not voting for her) but I don't understand how someone can call Trump pro-life when he's called for the use of nuclear weapons, attacking the families of terrorists, and he's called pregnancy an inconvenience.    That's just telling me that you want babies born but you have absolutely no value for the life of the child or those raising him.   

MCmeow

southernbelle0915 said:

TheMostHappy15 said:

MCmeow said:

Maybe one day presidential candidates will talk about climate change instead of gossip. I think this debate was a fail all around but I'm glad Trump looked like an idiot as usual, but as usual I doubt that will affect him.

-----Stuck in the Box-----

I think all the "But they didn't even touch on X" complaints are kind of unfair considering it's the first of three debates. We knew going in this one was going to be about trade, security, and race relations... all of which are pretty worthy of discussion (not sure what the gossip you're referring to is?). You can't hit every important issue in every debate (or even in all three debates, unfortunately).

I took this as more of "I wish they'd talk about real stuff vs. pointless stuff". But, to be specific, climate change did come up and instead of talk about the issue, they talked about who said what and when they said it instead.

Thanks, that's pretty much what I meant but I suck at putting things in words, lol. Basically I hope one day debates can be educationally fulfilling, and those discussions can lead to real policy changes instead of going backwards or standing still in time.

drunkenwitch

banana468 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

banana468 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

julieanne912 said:

banana468 said:

hellohkb said:

It amazes me that people watched the debate and still think to themselves, "Trump would make a great president!!"

The only thing I can think is that there are some people who are just going to vote for the platform.   Those people would have to watch Trump go up to the stage and set Hillary on fire before they can be persuaded to vote for a Democrat.

I've had these debates with family members and they're either staunchly the above or they think Hillary is worse and their minds are made up.   There is no convincing those who refuse to listen.  

This is how most of my friends are who are voting for Trump.  It's less about him, and more about the party and their conservative values.  

The same could be said for some Hillary supporters, including myself.  She's not my favorite person, but I believe in a lot of what she, and the democratic party, stand for, and oppose the republican party's standpoints on many issues.

This makes me laugh because Trump doesn't follow traditional conservative values.  Conservative values believe in smaller government and leaving as much up to the states as possible.  The bulk of his platform will require tons of government oversight:  the wall, stop and frisk, immigration, national school of choice, national right to carry, the list goes on.

And taxing companies who manufacture goods outside of the US?  How much more socialist of a policy can you find?

Yeah - I honestly think if he didn't have Pence then Republicans wouldn't know WTF to do.   All I think they're hoping for at this point is an R next to the office holder.

Oh, and Mr. Trump, you do realize that YOUR GOODS are produced outside of the country right?   Those Donald Trump suits and Ivanka shoes aren't made in NYC. 

I had this argument with a friend yesterday!  If he really cared about American jobs, he'd produce his goods here and not in 12 other countries and he wouldn't hire illegal immigrants.  If he cared about American manufacturing jobs, he'd drive an American car.  If he cared about blue collar workers livelihoods, he wouldn't short pay his contracts. 

His presidential politics mean nothing to me when his business practices over the past 50 years have been the exact opposite.

And I'm sick and damn tired of him playing the Michigan card; our unemployment is lower than the federal average, our average manufacturing wage is higher and we're doing just fine - even with a scheduled automotive slow down next year, which has  nothing to do with where the Focus is being made and everything to do with how Americans buy cars.

Which is why I try not to have this discussion with Trump supporters anymore.

They either start to make excuses for why he did things or they turn it to Hillary.

It's not a conversation that's worth my time.

Similarly as someone pro-life I don't debate Trump V. Hillary.   I don't love Hillary's platform there either.   (I'm also not voting for her) but I don't understand how someone can call Trump pro-life when he's called for the use of nuclear weapons, attacking the families of terrorists, and he's called pregnancy an inconvenience.    That's just telling me that you want babies born but you have absolutely no value for the life of the child or those raising him.   

Because he's not pro life, he's anti woman.