Etiquette

How to address invitations for "ladies only" bridal shower?

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Re: How to address invitations for "ladies only" bridal shower?

  • ILoveBeachMusicILoveBeachMusic Indiana
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    CMGragain said:


    Could someone please explain to me why a traditional ladies' shower isn't politically correct, but a non-traditional ladies' bachelorette party IS?




    I'll take a stab at this. Showers just for women, to me, reinforce the outdated notion that taking care of home and baby is exclusively a woman's job. It's just not expected anymore. Yes, many women and couples choose that life, but also many women and couples choose to split household, money-earning, and child-rearing duties. 

    For me and DH, we split household duties. He cares more about our dishes than I do and is a better cook than I am. He had a big say in the items we registered for for our wedding (but I refused to have a shower). Now, we're having a baby, and he'll be doing that child's laundry and cleaning up her barf and transporting her places, etc. He had a say in the registry items, and he was at the baby shower. However, he didn't want to be there and he didn't want a couples shower either even though I suggested it. But he had a hand in making this baby and he's going to be involved in raising her, so a party just for me makes no sense. Our guests were there to support him too. 

    At the end of the day, a shower can get really big and it can be cost-prohibitive for guests, so I'm still fine with ladies- only showers as a nod to tradition; but I expect the groom or father-to-be to at least be present or make an appearance. Takes two to tango. 


    I understand the above reasoning if it is that important to the bride/mom to be. However, I disagree with making someone attend a shower just because they are a parent. If he didn't want it and you didn't really want a shower (if I understood your post correctly), don't have one, but don't make him attend. 

    Also, CMGr had a second part of her post that hasn't been addressed - why are all female bach parties acceptable? I'm curious too. It seems to me that it would be the same rational for BP as for showers.
    PrettyGirlLostInLoveInQueens
  • flantasticflantastic The Midwest
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    CMGragain said:



    Could someone please explain to me why a traditional ladies' shower isn't politically correct, but a non-traditional ladies' bachelorette party IS?






    I'll take a stab at this. Showers just for women, to me, reinforce the outdated notion that taking care of home and baby is exclusively a woman's job. It's just not expected anymore. Yes, many women and couples choose that life, but also many women and couples choose to split household, money-earning, and child-rearing duties. 

    For me and DH, we split household duties. He cares more about our dishes than I do and is a better cook than I am. He had a big say in the items we registered for for our wedding (but I refused to have a shower). Now, we're having a baby, and he'll be doing that child's laundry and cleaning up her barf and transporting her places, etc. He had a say in the registry items, and he was at the baby shower. However, he didn't want to be there and he didn't want a couples shower either even though I suggested it. But he had a hand in making this baby and he's going to be involved in raising her, so a party just for me makes no sense. Our guests were there to support him too. 

    At the end of the day, a shower can get really big and it can be cost-prohibitive for guests, so I'm still fine with ladies- only showers as a nod to tradition; but I expect the groom or father-to-be to at least be present or make an appearance. Takes two to tango. 




    I understand the above reasoning if it is that important to the bride/mom to be. However, I disagree with making someone attend a shower just because they are a parent. If he didn't want it and you didn't really want a shower (if I understood your post correctly), don't have one, but don't make him attend. 

    Also, CMGr had a second part of her post that hasn't been addressed - why are all female bach parties acceptable? I'm curious too. It seems to me that it would be the same rational for BP as for showers.


    @LondonLisa did address it - she said she had several friends who had good guy friends at their "hen do." I think it's totally fair for it to be the same rationale. Go out with those you're close to.

    Anniversary

    charlotte989875
  • ILoveBeachMusicILoveBeachMusic Indiana
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    CMGragain said:




    Could someone please explain to me why a traditional ladies' shower isn't politically correct, but a non-traditional ladies' bachelorette party IS?








    I'll take a stab at this. Showers just for women, to me, reinforce the outdated notion that taking care of home and baby is exclusively a woman's job. It's just not expected anymore. Yes, many women and couples choose that life, but also many women and couples choose to split household, money-earning, and child-rearing duties. 

    For me and DH, we split household duties. He cares more about our dishes than I do and is a better cook than I am. He had a big say in the items we registered for for our wedding (but I refused to have a shower). Now, we're having a baby, and he'll be doing that child's laundry and cleaning up her barf and transporting her places, etc. He had a say in the registry items, and he was at the baby shower. However, he didn't want to be there and he didn't want a couples shower either even though I suggested it. But he had a hand in making this baby and he's going to be involved in raising her, so a party just for me makes no sense. Our guests were there to support him too. 

    At the end of the day, a shower can get really big and it can be cost-prohibitive for guests, so I'm still fine with ladies- only showers as a nod to tradition; but I expect the groom or father-to-be to at least be present or make an appearance. Takes two to tango. 






    I understand the above reasoning if it is that important to the bride/mom to be. However, I disagree with making someone attend a shower just because they are a parent. If he didn't want it and you didn't really want a shower (if I understood your post correctly), don't have one, but don't make him attend. 

    Also, CMGr had a second part of her post that hasn't been addressed - why are all female bach parties acceptable? I'm curious too. It seems to me that it would be the same rational for BP as for showers.




    @LondonLisa did address it - she said she had several friends who had good guy friends at their "hen do." I think it's totally fair for it to be the same rationale. Go out with those you're close to.


    I took "hen do" to mean something like a shower not the bach party. Personally, unless it was a bachelorette/bachelor party combined, I've never heard of one of them being co-ed. Just wondering.
  • LondonLisaLondonLisa London, UK
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    edited June 2017


































    CMGragain said:






    Could someone please explain to me why a traditional ladies' shower isn't politically correct, but a non-traditional ladies' bachelorette party IS?












    I'll take a stab at this. Showers just for women, to me, reinforce the outdated notion that taking care of home and baby is exclusively a woman's job. It's just not expected anymore. Yes, many women and couples choose that life, but also many women and couples choose to split household, money-earning, and child-rearing duties. 

    For me and DH, we split household duties. He cares more about our dishes than I do and is a better cook than I am. He had a big say in the items we registered for for our wedding (but I refused to have a shower). Now, we're having a baby, and he'll be doing that child's laundry and cleaning up her barf and transporting her places, etc. He had a say in the registry items, and he was at the baby shower. However, he didn't want to be there and he didn't want a couples shower either even though I suggested it. But he had a hand in making this baby and he's going to be involved in raising her, so a party just for me makes no sense. Our guests were there to support him too. 

    At the end of the day, a shower can get really big and it can be cost-prohibitive for guests, so I'm still fine with ladies- only showers as a nod to tradition; but I expect the groom or father-to-be to at least be present or make an appearance. Takes two to tango. 










    I understand the above reasoning if it is that important to the bride/mom to be. However, I disagree with making someone attend a shower just because they are a parent. If he didn't want it and you didn't really want a shower (if I understood your post correctly), don't have one, but don't make him attend. 

    Also, CMGr had a second part of her post that hasn't been addressed - why are all female bach parties acceptable? I'm curious too. It seems to me that it would be the same rational for BP as for showers.








    @LondonLisa did address it - she said she had several friends who had good guy friends at their "hen do." I think it's totally fair for it to be the same rationale. Go out with those you're close to.






    I took "hen do" to mean something like a shower not the bach party. Personally, unless it was a bachelorette/bachelor party combined, I've never heard of one of them being co-ed. Just wondering.




    Hen do is a bachelorette in this country. 

    Again- not saying that all parties must be coed, but to take a moment and thing 'am I actually inviting my closest friends?' Rather than 'only people with vaginas can attend'- because that's what you are doing when you say that only women can attend. Not to get all Judith Butler here, but gender social construct, and we should be challenging it, especially when it comes to expected roles of children. Many girls like trucks, many boys like dolls and cookery. Let's encourage that behaviour rather than assuming that female= cookery, cakes, and tea and boys will be 'bored to tears' at domestic things.  
    charlotte989875SP29Knottie48804623ahoywedding
  • ILoveBeachMusicILoveBeachMusic Indiana
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    CMGragain said:







    Could someone please explain to me why a traditional ladies' shower isn't politically correct, but a non-traditional ladies' bachelorette party IS?














    I'll take a stab at this. Showers just for women, to me, reinforce the outdated notion that taking care of home and baby is exclusively a woman's job. It's just not expected anymore. Yes, many women and couples choose that life, but also many women and couples choose to split household, money-earning, and child-rearing duties. 

    For me and DH, we split household duties. He cares more about our dishes than I do and is a better cook than I am. He had a big say in the items we registered for for our wedding (but I refused to have a shower). Now, we're having a baby, and he'll be doing that child's laundry and cleaning up her barf and transporting her places, etc. He had a say in the registry items, and he was at the baby shower. However, he didn't want to be there and he didn't want a couples shower either even though I suggested it. But he had a hand in making this baby and he's going to be involved in raising her, so a party just for me makes no sense. Our guests were there to support him too. 

    At the end of the day, a shower can get really big and it can be cost-prohibitive for guests, so I'm still fine with ladies- only showers as a nod to tradition; but I expect the groom or father-to-be to at least be present or make an appearance. Takes two to tango. 












    I understand the above reasoning if it is that important to the bride/mom to be. However, I disagree with making someone attend a shower just because they are a parent. If he didn't want it and you didn't really want a shower (if I understood your post correctly), don't have one, but don't make him attend. 

    Also, CMGr had a second part of her post that hasn't been addressed - why are all female bach parties acceptable? I'm curious too. It seems to me that it would be the same rational for BP as for showers.










    @LondonLisa did address it - she said she had several friends who had good guy friends at their "hen do." I think it's totally fair for it to be the same rationale. Go out with those you're close to.








    I took "hen do" to mean something like a shower not the bach party. Personally, unless it was a bachelorette/bachelor party combined, I've never heard of one of them being co-ed. Just wondering.






    Hen do is a bachelorette in this country. 

    Again- not saying that all parties must be coed, but to take a moment and thing 'am I actually inviting my closest friends?' Rather than 'only people with vaginas can attend'- because that's what you are doing when you say that only women can attend. Not to get all Judith Butler here, but gender social construct, and we should be challenging it, especially when it comes to expected roles of children. Many girls like trucks, many boys like dolls and cookery. Let's encourage that behaviour rather than assuming that female= cookery, cakes, and tea and boys will be 'bored to tears' at domestic things.  


    Thanks for the clarification @LondonLisa. Being the mother of a daughter and two sons I agree that there shouldn't be preconceptions of what boys and girls "like". My daughter was the most athletic of the three and DS1 is the one that loves to cook. They all played with the workbench, kitchen, legos etc.
    charlotte989875Heffalump
  • I'd probably break the system if I tried to quote everything, so...
    No, I'm not hosting my own shower. Yes, I know it would be tacky. My maid of honor and one of my other bridesmaids want to host it for me and yes, wow, they asked for a guest list. 

    Yes, the children invited to the shower are invited to the wedding. 

    Really, the truth would be that I'm much closer to my female friends and their daughters than their husbands and sons. So if we're talking about closest friends, it would be the ladies and girls, and not the guys. If the moms want to bring their 2-year-old sons because they'd be sad otherwise, have at it. A 2-year-old isn't going to matter as much to the food quantities as a 12-year-old. Really that's what it comes down to. I'd invite adult women only if there weren't enough little girls that I know would be disappointed if their moms got invited and they weren't.

    Side note, the first thing my FH and I did when a bridal shower was mentioned was talk about and he doesn't want to come to the shower and play the games and help open presents either (I don't even know if I'm going to be opening presents at the shower, TBH. If we're talking about tacky traditions, that's always seemed like it to me). Since he's not going to be there, I kind of went off of that that I probably won't invite my friends' husbands either since I would think that FH being there or not being there would determine whether it would be coed or not.

    In my circle of friends, I don't think I've ever been to a bridal shower where the FH was even within hollering distance. TBH, I'd feel a lot worse about it if he was there but spent his time with "the guys" and only popped in once or twice during the present opening. That seems a lot more forced gender segregation than just inviting the ladies to begin with. 
    PrettyGirlLostILoveBeachMusicSP29[Deleted User]
  • redoryxredoryx
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    edited June 2017


    CMGragain said:


    Could someone please explain to me why a traditional ladies' shower isn't politically correct, but a non-traditional ladies' bachelorette party IS?




    Here's my two cents on this, others may disagree: 

    With a wedding, two people are getting married. In a hetero marriage this is a man and a woman. BOTH of them should be able to reap the benefits of the parties and gift giving and all of that. But it's weighted differently because womenfolk. 

    Comparing the shower to the bachelorette party is apples and oranges because the man also has the option of a bachelor party, which are traditionally all men attending. The groom doesn't have something like a shower.

    The shower continues to perpetuate the antiquated notion that only the women care about the running of the household and all domestic details which is so incredibly not true. I know and am related to multiple couples where the husband does ALL the cooking for the family. I am a woman. I loathe showers and have declined invitations to friend's showers because I'd rather stab myself in the eye with a fork (I still send a gift). But I know men, including boys, who love showers and do care about cookware and place settings. 

    Inviting women only means you are assuming that you can gauge a person's level of interest in your shower based on what's in their pants. 
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    DrillSergeantCatInLoveInQueensSP29thisismynickname2
  • thisismynickname2thisismynickname2 City By The Lake
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    @banana468 I can respect that the logistics didn't work out in the scenario provided. 

    But I stand by my opinion (and agree to disagree) that when possible, a groom or father should attend. And in the context of this whole conversation about gendered expectations, what's so offensive to a man about being at an event with good food and booze,  socializing people that are his friends and family albeit all female, and receiving presents?
    ________________________________


    charlotte989875redoryxInLoveInQueens
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair
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    edited June 2017


    banana468 said:














    At the end of the day, a shower can get really big and it can be cost-prohibitive for guests, so I'm still fine with ladies- only showers as a nod to tradition; but I expect the groom or father-to-be to at least be present or make an appearance. Takes two to tango. 








    He shows up at the end of the shower to help load all of the shit into the car ;-)






    Amazingly I knew how to put things in the trunk of my car without the assistance of a man.  ;-) 




    Amazingly so do I, however it goes way faster when he's there to do it too, and I have no problems letting him do the heavy lifting! #sorrynotsorry

    Has nothing to do with "needing" a man's help.

    My initial statement is common for showers in my social circles, both bridal and baby- the groom/father shows up at the end to help load up and tear down, as do many of the other male relatives.  We don't really do co-ed showers.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • MobKazMobKaz Chicago suburbs
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    I'm skimming through this, so apologies if I am redundant.

    @wakeamy1995 said, "Side note, the first thing my FH and I did when a bridal shower was
    mentioned was talk about and he doesn't want to come to the shower and
    play the games and help open presents either
    (I don't even know if I'm
    going to be opening presents at the shower, TBH.
    If we're talking about
    tacky traditions, that's always seemed like it to me). Since he's not
    going to be there, I kind of went off of that that I probably won't
    invite my friends' husbands either since I would think that FH being
    there or not being there would determine whether it would be coed or
    not."


    If I am taking the time and finances to purchase a gift for you, and am attending a shower with the expectation that said gift will be open, then I expect you to be gracious and open the gift in my presence.

    Regarding the secondary issue, I don't think a guest should have any expectation as to whether or not the groom/father is in attendance.  In our family, whether the groom attends is more dependent on the guest list.  If several guests made a point of traveling to attend this shower, then the groom/father-to-be will attend at some point to pay his respects to those guests. 

    In the case of both my son and daughter, they were living with their SO's at the time of their showers.  Both son and SIL came at the tail end of the showers.  Yes, it was to help load up their cars with gifts.  But in our family, we also "use" the guys as our clean up crew in terms of all things food related.  After cooking and baking for days prior to a family event, I no longer have any interest in seeing any of that food!  They are more than eager to eat and/or pack up the left-overs.



    levioosaJediElizabethPrettyGirlLostlizybeff
  • thisismynickname2thisismynickname2 City By The Lake
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    banana468 said:






    I will agree that it's NICE for the groom to attend when possible. 

    But I think that a shower guest should only expect food and refreshments and the guest of honor to open gifts.   To EXPECT the partner of the guest of honor to attend is where I think the guests at large are out of line.   It's semantics but I'm going to make the argument that it's not necessary and making a judgement about the status of their relationship is out of line.







    But this begs the question... why is the bride the only guest of honor?
    She's not marrying herself. 
    Now, given what I've read on these boards over the years, maybe this has partly to do with family and/or regional traditions. In my crowd, showers are just gift-giving events, a precursor to some major life change happening. Woo, party! For others, I've heard of welcoming a woman to married life or motherhood with other special traditions. That makes more sense for single-sex events. 

    At the end of the day I really don't have a problem with single-sex showers either, only trying to explain why some people like co-ed or like the partner to show up too. 

    And like a PP said, bachelorette parties are apples/oranges. Men have bachelor parties. It's common for people to have their closest friends be their same-sex friends. Some people with opposite-sex close friends have co-ed bachelor/ette parties. My very closest friends happen to be women so I did have a women-only, small bachelorette. I don't see it as any different from any other "girls' night out" that we've had over the years either. 
    ________________________________


    charlotte989875InLoveInQueensredoryx




  • banana468 said:









    I will agree that it's NICE for the groom to attend when possible. 

    But I think that a shower guest should only expect food and refreshments and the guest of honor to open gifts.   To EXPECT the partner of the guest of honor to attend is where I think the guests at large are out of line.   It's semantics but I'm going to make the argument that it's not necessary and making a judgement about the status of their relationship is out of line.









    But this begs the question... why is the bride the only guest of honor?
    She's not marrying herself. 
    Now, given what I've read on these boards over the years, maybe this has partly to do with family and/or regional traditions. In my crowd, showers are just gift-giving events, a precursor to some major life change happening. Woo, party! For others, I've heard of welcoming a woman to married life or motherhood with other special traditions. That makes more sense for single-sex events. 

    At the end of the day I really don't have a problem with single-sex showers either, only trying to explain why some people like co-ed or like the partner to show up too. 

    And like a PP said, bachelorette parties are apples/oranges. Men have bachelor parties. It's common for people to have their closest friends be their same-sex friends. Some people with opposite-sex close friends have co-ed bachelor/ette parties. My very closest friends happen to be women so I did have a women-only, small bachelorette. I don't see it as any different from any other "girls' night out" that we've had over the years either. 


    I think this is really circle dependent as to why people like co-ed or have the partner show up. 

    The issue I have is with any guest expecting well.....anything other than the basics.   If the groom doesn't show up it's not necessarily for any bad reason like having pots and pans as "women's work".


    ILoveBeachMusicPrettyGirlLosteileenrobSTARMOON44
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair
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    But this begs the question... why is the bride the only guest of honor?
    She's not marrying herself. 
    Now, given what I've read on these boards over the years, maybe this has partly to do with family and/or regional traditions. In my crowd, showers are just gift-giving events, a precursor to some major life change happening. Woo, party! For others, I've heard of welcoming a woman to married life or motherhood with other special traditions. That makes more sense for single-sex events. 

    At the end of the day I really don't have a problem with single-sex showers either, only trying to explain why some people like co-ed or like the partner to show up too. 

    And like a PP said, bachelorette parties are apples/oranges. Men have bachelor parties. It's common for people to have their closest friends be their same-sex friends. Some people with opposite-sex close friends have co-ed bachelor/ette parties. My very closest friends happen to be women so I did have a women-only, small bachelorette. I don't see it as any different from any other "girls' night out" that we've had over the years either. 


    I disagree about the bachlorette party comparison.  I think it is an apples to apples comparison.  I think a ladies only shower is the same as any other girls night out.



    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


    Knottie737c32aade6d0ff7CMGragainSP29









  • But this begs the question... why is the bride the only guest of honor?
    She's not marrying herself. 
    Now, given what I've read on these boards over the years, maybe this has partly to do with family and/or regional traditions. In my crowd, showers are just gift-giving events, a precursor to some major life change happening. Woo, party! For others, I've heard of welcoming a woman to married life or motherhood with other special traditions. That makes more sense for single-sex events. 

    At the end of the day I really don't have a problem with single-sex showers either, only trying to explain why some people like co-ed or like the partner to show up too. 

    And like a PP said, bachelorette parties are apples/oranges. Men have bachelor parties. It's common for people to have their closest friends be their same-sex friends. Some people with opposite-sex close friends have co-ed bachelor/ette parties. My very closest friends happen to be women so I did have a women-only, small bachelorette. I don't see it as any different from any other "girls' night out" that we've had over the years either. 




    I disagree about the bachlorette party comparison.  I think it is an apples to apples comparison.  I think a ladies only shower is the same as any other girls night out.




    A bachelor/bachelorette party is about the groom/bride choosing the people they're closest to to celebrate that they'll soon no longer be single. Usually these tend to be people of the same sex. 

    A shower it usually choosing all the close women friends and relatives to invite to an event to give "shower her" with household gifts--gifts that are for HER in the married life, because even if the man will use them too the perception is he won't care about what they are and she will. 

    To be honest, "traditional" bachelor parties I find just as offensive as showers. Where showers imply only women care about or should use household goods, traditional bachelor parties imply the man has to give up his friends and partying and going out because they're getting married. Both are offensive to both genders. 
    InLoveInQueensSP29redoryx
  • Fair enough about opening the gifts at the shower. Personally, I never really liked the sitting around and watching the bride open presents when I attended showers, but maybe that's just me. It felt uncomfortable and in many cases the bride seemed uncomfortable too. But if some people expect that's what's to happen, then I'll bite. Still seems like if we're going to talk about tacky traditions, that ought to be a big one on the list.


  • Fair enough about opening the gifts at the shower. Personally, I never really liked the sitting around and watching the bride open presents when I attended showers, but maybe that's just me. It felt uncomfortable and in many cases the bride seemed uncomfortable too. But if some people expect that's what's to happen, then I'll bite. Still seems like if we're going to talk about tacky traditions, that ought to be a big one on the list.


    The issue is that the entire point of a shower is to GIVE gifts to a guest or guests of honor.  And the guest of honor may feel awkward being in such a state as center of attention opening gifts but she needs to because the guests themselves were asked to show up with gifts in hand and it's not nice to the guests to ask them to bring something without opening it. 
    STARMOON44charlotte989875SP29Heffalump
  • In my experience, the whole opening gifts ordeal makes people who weren't able to give as large a gift feel badly or self conscious about their contribution. It's also not *my* time I'm worried about (re: people who are like, "you can't even be bothered to open my gift?!"), it's keeping my guests as a captive audience. I do not and never will understand how it's interesting to watch someone open gifts she literally picked out for herself on the registry. And, as long as the bride greets me, thanks me for coming, and sends me a prompt thank you note, I know that she appreciates my gift.

    I'd rather eat, drink, and mingle all day than be held captive to an hour+ (at the low end) of gift giving. 
  • ILoveBeachMusicILoveBeachMusic Indiana
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    Obviously, there are a lot of different feelings about showers. I personally like them and have fun chatting, eating and drinking. I don't mind watching the guest of honor opening gifts - I like seeing house/baby stuff. In my circle, we don't do a bunch of games. That being said, I agree with @Jen4948. If you don't like showers don't have one. If you don't like attending them don't go unless you feel like you have to go but, for heaven sake don't complain about showers while you are at one (general you, no one specifically).
    MobKazSTARMOON44SP29
  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston
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    Jen4948 said:















    In my experience, the whole opening gifts ordeal makes people who weren't able to give as large a gift feel badly or self conscious about their contribution. It's also not *my* time I'm worried about (re: people who are like, "you can't even be bothered to open my gift?!"), it's keeping my guests as a captive audience. I do not and never will understand how it's interesting to watch someone open gifts she literally picked out for herself on the registry. And, as long as the bride greets me, thanks me for coming, and sends me a prompt thank you note, I know that she appreciates my gift.

    I'd rather eat, drink, and mingle all day than be held captive to an hour+ (at the low end) of gift giving. 







    If you are so bored by or can't understand the custom of opening gifts in front of others, which is the point of showers, then don't agree to be the guest of honor at a shower or accept an invitation to be a guest at one one.

    However, if you decide to do either at some point, then get over your negative feelings for the duration of the shower.






    So I think there's something in between. People do open gifts at showers in my circle, but there is no captive audience. People who want to watch the bride/mother to be open gifts they do, but the rest eat, drink, socialize, etc.  We do tons of food, open bar, music, and many people chat, mingle, walk around during the gift giving and just pay attention when their gift is being opened. I get the feeling of wanting to keep guests entertained (and seriously many people find watching someone open presents pretty dull) and being a good host, and balancing that by making people feel good about opening their gift and taking the time to buy/wrap/bring it.

    I just don't think the options are captive audience or no shower at all. 


    I agree with you that showers can be more fun for guests when they are not treated as captive audiences. But the guest of honor would still need to open the gifts and graciously thank the givers.
    SP29
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