Wedding Woes
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Where is the line?

Dear Jane

While I’m sure many people would say, ‘If you have to ask if it is racist it probably is,’ but I’m going to ask anyway. We know Halloween costumes that use blackface, headdresses, or any other culturally appropriated gear is offensive. But can you dress up as a person you admire if you avoid those types of things? Is it ok for say a white lady to dress up as Janet Jackson—if she wears just the clothing from her favourite video? Or wear a robe and carry a copy of the constitution to resemble Sonia Sotomayor? Nothing satirical - just clothing and a willingness to explain said costume to anyone who asks? No makeup to change skin colour or change features to appear ethnically different to who they are.

A friend of mine loves Nicki Minaj and wore a gorgeous and colourful wig and long nails and bright pink lipstick and long lashes, and sang her songs at karaoke at a party. She was accused of racism but I didn’t see it. Had she put on too much bronzer or put padding in her underwear to enlarged her flat white behind I would have agreed—but she was simply imitating someone she admired. Am I wrong?

Signed,

Doesn’t hate but can sometimes be stupid

Re: Where is the line?

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    Personally, I would not dress up as someone of another ethnicity because I would be really afraid of offending - especially if we're talking about a person vs. animated.

    I've seen some issues with little girls dressing as animated Disney characters.   IMO, if you want to dress as Doc McStuffins or Moana, put on their outfits but don't attempt to change your own race / ethnicity to match the character. 


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    banana468 said:
    Personally, I would not dress up as someone of another ethnicity because I would be really afraid of offending - especially if we're talking about a person vs. animated.

    I've seen some issues with little girls dressing as animated Disney characters.   IMO, if you want to dress as Doc McStuffins or Moana, put on their outfits but don't attempt to change your own race / ethnicity to match the character. 


    This is the line for me, too. I'm good with kids dressing up as Disney/cartoon/book/movie characters, as long as your not attempting to "change" your race. Adults? I think it always comes off as appropriation. 
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    banana468 said:
    Personally, I would not dress up as someone of another ethnicity because I would be really afraid of offending - especially if we're talking about a person vs. animated.

    I've seen some issues with little girls dressing as animated Disney characters.   IMO, if you want to dress as Doc McStuffins or Moana, put on their outfits but don't attempt to change your own race / ethnicity to match the character. 
    I agree but Moana could be argued about race as well.



    I mean since LW's friend didn't colour her skin and just dressed as Nicki Minaj, it would be fine. Nicki wears flashy colours, etc.

    But really, where is the line? Does that mean someone who has dark skin can't be Ariel?
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    I saw several (yes several) articles this year about not dressing kids up as Moana unless they're actually Hawaiian or Polynesian due to cultural appropriation. I consider myself pretty woke, but really? A 4 year old wants to wear a grass skirt with a sash and a red shirt to be like her favorite Disney character and s/he can't? Or if s/he wanted to wear scrubs, a white coat and a Doc McStuffins name tag, they can't? Sorry but my red line doesn't go that far. 

    Now an white adult donning brown paint and an afro wig to be Lauryn Hill for halloween? Nah... 
    The only possible legit thing about the Moana situation is that I hear there was a costume for Maui that was actually the brown skin tone.   IMO that crosses the line and I believe Disney pulled it:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/disney-maui-costume-brownface_us_57e0c4cde4b08cb14097b892  

    I wouldn't find it to be an issue if my daughter wanted to wear the Moana outfit.   But I would not be cool if she wanted to change hair or skin to be Moana.   I'd feel the same way if she wanted to be Pocahontas or Mulan or any character that wasn't her race / ethnicity.   
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    banana468 said:
    I saw several (yes several) articles this year about not dressing kids up as Moana unless they're actually Hawaiian or Polynesian due to cultural appropriation. I consider myself pretty woke, but really? A 4 year old wants to wear a grass skirt with a sash and a red shirt to be like her favorite Disney character and s/he can't? Or if s/he wanted to wear scrubs, a white coat and a Doc McStuffins name tag, they can't? Sorry but my red line doesn't go that far. 

    Now an white adult donning brown paint and an afro wig to be Lauryn Hill for halloween? Nah... 
    The only possible legit thing about the Moana situation is that I hear there was a costume for Maui that was actually the brown skin tone.   IMO that crosses the line and I believe Disney pulled it:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/disney-maui-costume-brownface_us_57e0c4cde4b08cb14097b892  

    I wouldn't find it to be an issue if my daughter wanted to wear the Moana outfit.   But I would not be cool if she wanted to change hair or skin to be Moana.   I'd feel the same way if she wanted to be Pocahontas or Mulan or any character that wasn't her race / ethnicity.   
    In that case, I agree it is inappropriate but just wearing the outfit is fine.
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    banana468 said:
    I saw several (yes several) articles this year about not dressing kids up as Moana unless they're actually Hawaiian or Polynesian due to cultural appropriation. I consider myself pretty woke, but really? A 4 year old wants to wear a grass skirt with a sash and a red shirt to be like her favorite Disney character and s/he can't? Or if s/he wanted to wear scrubs, a white coat and a Doc McStuffins name tag, they can't? Sorry but my red line doesn't go that far. 

    Now an white adult donning brown paint and an afro wig to be Lauryn Hill for halloween? Nah... 
    The only possible legit thing about the Moana situation is that I hear there was a costume for Maui that was actually the brown skin tone.   IMO that crosses the line and I believe Disney pulled it:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/disney-maui-costume-brownface_us_57e0c4cde4b08cb14097b892  

    I wouldn't find it to be an issue if my daughter wanted to wear the Moana outfit.   But I would not be cool if she wanted to change hair or skin to be Moana.   I'd feel the same way if she wanted to be Pocahontas or Mulan or any character that wasn't her race / ethnicity.   
    Totally agree!

    I nodded through most of the article, except this:

    "After Disney released the first trailer for “Moana” in June, people expressed frustration with Maui’s larger-than-life portrayal, claiming it was a form of fat-shaming that perpetuated a stereotype that all Polynesian people are obese."

    I mean JFC. He's a Disney character who's supposed to be demigod.  If they had made him too tall would people say "well Polynesian people aren't usually that tall so this is offensively inaccurate"? If they had made him too fit, would people say, "Most Polynesians don't look like this, now you're body shaming our culture." No matter what he looked like, someone would find something to complain about.
    *********************************************************************************

    image
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    I think it's kind of needs to be on a case-by-case basis of the costume.  Always, no blackface/hair/feature changes.  But if someone wanted to do Janet Jackson Rhythm Nation or Michael Jackson Thriller as a white person, I'm not sure I'd think it was appropriation.  If a white person wanted to do Malcolm X, I'd definitely say no.  I don't think there's good hard/fast rules.  I will say, if the question comes up in your mind, just don't.   

    We had a big thing b/c one of K's big hits is doing Aladdin.  And we had to debate back and forth whether it was appropriation or not.  We still don't have a great answer, but she still does it, sticking to definite Disney songs with it.

    The issue with the character from Moana costume (sorry, not up on names), IIRC, was the tatooing, wasn't it?  
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    So now we (people in general) can only dress up in costumes from our own cultural heritage? I don't know, but I think that is a bit too far. I'm responding to @eileenrob's friends. Good grief! So only Danes can be Ariel, only Indians can be Jasmine? Why can't kids just be kids - as long as it is respectful? I have not seen Moana (out of that age group) but obviously what your daughter saw eileenrob was a cool girl who loved her grandmother - who wouldn't want to emulate that!
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    eileenrob said: 
    *snip*

    I did get one overly-woke friend accuse me of cultural appropriation, and a few comments into our back and forth she said Elsa would’ve been a better choice since Eva’s not Polynesian.  My response was Eva also isn’t Norwegian but Irish-Italian-Salvadoran-Dominican, so wouldn’t we also have appropriated Scandinavian people by going with Elsa?   :(
    What'd she say to that?
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    At an elementary school that a friend teaches at, they were told no costumes that changed the colour of your skin. A kid got sent home for being dressed as the Hulk and the Hulk had green paint on his arms and face. 

    I think that that as soon as a kid is a teenager, it is appropriate to discuss cultural appropriation and put limits on costumes but kids are different. If I had kids and they were in love with a Disney character, I would absolutely allow them to go as the character. I don’t think face paint is appropriate ever though. 
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    eileenrob said: 
    *snip*

    I did get one overly-woke friend accuse me of cultural appropriation, and a few comments into our back and forth she said Elsa would’ve been a better choice since Eva’s not Polynesian.  My response was Eva also isn’t Norwegian but Irish-Italian-Salvadoran-Dominican, so wouldn’t we also have appropriated Scandinavian people by going with Elsa?   :(
    What'd she say to that?
    Norwegian/Europeans being appropriated is different because they’re in the majority not the minority, so even if they are appropriated it’s not causing them societal damage.
     Which I kind of see...but maybe for adults? Not for kids in Halloween costumes.  Which is where we decided to agree to disagree/it’s a slippery slope.
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    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said: 
    *snip*

    I did get one overly-woke friend accuse me of cultural appropriation, and a few comments into our back and forth she said Elsa would’ve been a better choice since Eva’s not Polynesian.  My response was Eva also isn’t Norwegian but Irish-Italian-Salvadoran-Dominican, so wouldn’t we also have appropriated Scandinavian people by going with Elsa?   :(
    What'd she say to that?
    Norwegian/Europeans being appropriated is different because they’re in the majority not the minority, so even if they are appropriated it’s not causing them societal damage.
     Which I kind of see...but maybe for adults? Not for kids in Halloween costumes.  Which is where we decided to agree to disagree/it’s a slippery slope.
    Nope, I don't agree with that. For instance, as some of you may know, I'm about to be a grandma for the first time. I have been trying to decide what to be called. I have looked at a lot of different names from different countries - one of which I have a strong tie but not a blood tie to. I still feel like it is inappropriate for me to take that country's name for grandmother even though it is a majority European country.
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    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said: 
    *snip*

    I did get one overly-woke friend accuse me of cultural appropriation, and a few comments into our back and forth she said Elsa would’ve been a better choice since Eva’s not Polynesian.  My response was Eva also isn’t Norwegian but Irish-Italian-Salvadoran-Dominican, so wouldn’t we also have appropriated Scandinavian people by going with Elsa?   :(
    What'd she say to that?
    Norwegian/Europeans being appropriated is different because they’re in the majority not the minority, so even if they are appropriated it’s not causing them societal damage.
     Which I kind of see...but maybe for adults? Not for kids in Halloween costumes.  Which is where we decided to agree to disagree/it’s a slippery slope.
    Nope, I don't agree with that. For instance, as some of you may know, I'm about to be a grandma for the first time. I have been trying to decide what to be called. I have looked at a lot of different names from different countries - one of which I have a strong tie but not a blood tie to. I still feel like it is inappropriate for me to take that country's name for grandmother even though it is a majority European country.
    When I was about to be a grandparent for the first time, many friends and family asked me what I wanted to be called.  Because my family kept to "standard" verbage like grandma and grandpa, I didn't really think about names much.  I love the ways kids naturally develop names for people. 

    For example, my daughter misspoke the name of the mom of my sister-in-law, and she became a much loved "grandma nugget". 

    Regardless of what is decided, it will warm your heart in an unimaginable way!  The first time they are old enough to run to you with open arms.......<3<3
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    Nope, I don't agree with that. For instance, as some of you may know, I'm about to be a grandma for the first time. I have been trying to decide what to be called. I have looked at a lot of different names from different countries - one of which I have a strong tie but not a blood tie to. I still feel like it is inappropriate for me to take that country's name for grandmother even though it is a majority European country.
    When I was about to be a grandparent for the first time, many friends and family asked me what I wanted to be called.  Because my family kept to "standard" verbage like grandma and grandpa, I didn't really think about names much.  I love the ways kids naturally develop names for people. 

    For example, my daughter misspoke the name of the mom of my sister-in-law, and she became a much loved "grandma nugget". 

    Regardless of what is decided, it will warm your heart in an unimaginable way!  The first time they are old enough to run to you with open arms.......<3<3
    Oh I know! Whatever they change what I choose into is just fine! I just want to cuddle those sweet babies! My husband's family had some interesting ones! The oldest grandchild usually sets the precedent, but I figure we have to start with something!
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    banana468 said:
    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said: 
    *snip*

    I did get one overly-woke friend accuse me of cultural appropriation, and a few comments into our back and forth she said Elsa would’ve been a better choice since Eva’s not Polynesian.  My response was Eva also isn’t Norwegian but Irish-Italian-Salvadoran-Dominican, so wouldn’t we also have appropriated Scandinavian people by going with Elsa?   :(
    What'd she say to that?
    Norwegian/Europeans being appropriated is different because they’re in the majority not the minority, so even if they are appropriated it’s not causing them societal damage.
     Which I kind of see...but maybe for adults? Not for kids in Halloween costumes.  Which is where we decided to agree to disagree/it’s a slippery slope.
    I hope she doesn't dress in green or an orange wig on St. Patrick's Day and uyse it as an excuse to overdo the beer or whiskey.  Irish are a majority but portraying them as drunks happens too frequently for my favourite holiday.
    I agree with you! I disagreed with her on that. It was her response to me saying would dressing as Elsa be appropriating Norwegians. She’s over the top.
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    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said: 
    *snip*

    I did get one overly-woke friend accuse me of cultural appropriation, and a few comments into our back and forth she said Elsa would’ve been a better choice since Eva’s not Polynesian.  My response was Eva also isn’t Norwegian but Irish-Italian-Salvadoran-Dominican, so wouldn’t we also have appropriated Scandinavian people by going with Elsa?   :(
    What'd she say to that?
    Norwegian/Europeans being appropriated is different because they’re in the majority not the minority, so even if they are appropriated it’s not causing them societal damage.
     Which I kind of see...but maybe for adults? Not for kids in Halloween costumes.  Which is where we decided to agree to disagree/it’s a slippery slope.
    Nope, I don't agree with that. For instance, as some of you may know, I'm about to be a grandma for the first time. I have been trying to decide what to be called. I have looked at a lot of different names from different countries - one of which I have a strong tie but not a blood tie to. I still feel like it is inappropriate for me to take that country's name for grandmother even though it is a majority European country.
    Omg! Congrats to you and your growing family!  I didn’t know you had a grandchild on the way- how nice :) 

    I think if it’s with respect and admiration, using another country’s term for grandma is okay.  Cultural appropriation is definitely tricky.  Lots of shades of gray.  My cornrow example above is a reason we all need to be aware of it.  But as Americans, it’s nice that we’ve all learned so much from each other.  I’m not going to feel offended if someone not Italian or Irish makes eggplant parmigiana or corned beef.  My closest friend is Muslim, and her family celebrates Christmas.  They don’t do the religious aspects (advent candles, Nativity set) but the tree, the presents from Santa, the stockings...I think it’s nice.  Definitely not disrespectful.

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    You are right @eileenrob if something is done with respect and admiration it is ok. It is very tricky. Food is totally different! I will eat and attempt to prepare anyone's food!!! Religious holidays are tricky. I think incorporating the non-religious parts are fine (as your friend does). I also think it is great to include people of different faiths to celebrate different holidays so we can learn about one another. Thanks for the congratulations, we are very excited!
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    A lot of appropriation discussion/questions come down to...are you white?  And I don't care if you're Irish, Norwegian, German, etc.  If you're culturally white, you have to be careful of appropriation.  White can't be appropriated b/c white is the majority power still (so the Elsa example fails appropriation).  And respect and admiration doesn't cut it because lots of people respect the hell out of things that they decide to appropriate b/c they want to and can.  (Yes, there is an argument here for PoC who also have "white" heritage, but they aren't usually the problem, and yes PoC can appropriate against each other and that still isn't usually the problem, and it's ill-advised to bring that up in this conversation).

    Everday Feminism is my go-to spot for this discussion and has lots of great info about examining and dealing with appropriation vs. appreciation and just appropriation in general:

    https://everydayfeminism.com/2013/09/cultural-exchange-and-cultural-appropriation/

    https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/05/avoid-cultural-appropriation/

    https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/04/honoring-culture-appropriation/

    https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/05/cultural-appropriation-what-you-cant/
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