I'm not sure how you can save this.

mrsconn23

Dear Prudence,

I am a 47-year-old man. I have a 12-year-old son and 14-year-old daughter from a previous marriage. When I was dating my now-wife, I was clear that I do not want any other children, and she reassured me she wasn’t interested in children of her own. Now she is 38 and tells me she has to have a baby or she will “die.”

We have been married six years and seen two different counselors, and it always boils down to my wife repeating, “I want a baby, I need a baby, why won’t you give me a baby?” We are sleeping in separate rooms and the tension in my marriage is affecting my kids. My daughter recently asked not to be left alone with my wife anymore, saying, “I am not her real daughter, so why bother playing pretend?” They used to be very close.

My wife blames me for this rift and says I am poisoning the kids against her. I tell her they have ears and she has not been circumspect about deciding they were not enough for her anymore. I love my wife, but I am not changing diapers again at my age. I am not the one upending our marriage! I want to save my marriage, but I don’t know how.

—Baby Breakup

ShesSoCold

mrsconn23 said:

Dear Prudence,

I am a 47-year-old man. I have a 12-year-old son and 14-year-old daughter from a previous marriage. When I was dating my now-wife, I was clear that I do not want any other children, and she reassured me she wasn’t interested in children of her own. Now she is 38 and tells me she has to have a baby or she will “die.”

We have been married six years and seen two different counselors, and it always boils down to my wife repeating, “I want a baby, I need a baby, why won’t you give me a baby?” We are sleeping in separate rooms and the tension in my marriage is affecting my kids. My daughter recently asked not to be left alone with my wife anymore, saying, “I am not her real daughter, so why bother playing pretend?” They used to be very close.

My wife blames me for this rift and says I am poisoning the kids against her. I tell her they have ears and she has not been circumspect about deciding they were not enough for her anymore. I love my wife, but I am not changing diapers again at my age. I am not the one upending our marriage! I want to save my marriage, but I don’t know how.

—Baby Breakup

Not sure you can, Guy. You can't compromise and have half a baby. I'm sure your counselors are saying the same thing. You may love this horse, but it's dead and you need to stop beating it.

STARMOON44

You can’t. Stop having sex with her, she will get pregnant. Call a lawyer. 

thisismynickname2

I think situations like this are really sad. When I was in my 20s I was ambivalent about having kids. Met DH and we agreed "maybe one;" if it was meant to be then great, if not, also great. Well it was meant to be! And we're thrilled.
My point is, people can change their minds on this. Maybe when they were dating she truly was ambivalent or didn't want kids. (Maybe she always did want one and didn't want to lose him and lied, but I'd rather not think that.) Anyway, sounds like they're at an impasse. I feel bad for the existing children too, knowing they're not good enough for her. Probably better for them to part ways. 

banana468

Your marriage is unfortunately over.   If one party refuses to move on without having a child and the other refuses to have one that's a pretty large hill.  

I think they need to have a frank discussion to see if that's ever going to change.   If not it's time to get a good lawyer. 

charlotte989875

I'd be more worried about why your daughter doesn't want to be alone with your wife. This sounds like more than just a rift, it's an enormous cavern that needs to be addressed. 

I think a separation is in order. She wants something you can't give to her. The longer you both try and convince each other to give the worse it's going to get.

lovesclimbing

thisismynickname2 said:

I think situations like this are really sad. When I was in my 20s I was ambivalent about having kids. Met DH and we agreed "maybe one;" if it was meant to be then great, if not, also great. Well it was meant to be! And we're thrilled.
My point is, people can change their minds on this. Maybe when they were dating she truly was ambivalent or didn't want kids. (Maybe she always did want one and didn't want to lose him and lied, but I'd rather not think that.) Anyway, sounds like they're at an impasse. I feel bad for the existing children too, knowing they're not good enough for her. Probably better for them to part ways. 

Yes, this. I know people who've agreed no kids, and while some of them have stayed firm on that,  most of them have had either one or both change their minds. (And it's even sadder when one or both realizes they wish they'd had kids when they're into their late 40s and later.) Some have gone on to have kids with more or less difficulty going into getting to the point where they both agree to have kids and some haven't and have split. 

Even if the husband here agrees to have a child with her, she sounds like the type of woman who would now have a "real" daughter and treat the children differently and try to drive further wedges between his children and their child.  

mrsconn23

lovesclimbing said:

Even if the husband here agrees to have a child with her, she sounds like the type of woman who would now have a "real" daughter and treat the children differently and try to drive further wedges between his children and their child.  

As a custodial stepparent who's had a child of their own, I can say that the struggle is fucking real.  It helps that the kids are 10 years apart in age, but I live with occasional guilt over things I've done different with DefConn vs the kiddo.  But it's all a learning curve.  I was 22 when I met DH, 23 when they moved in with me, and 24 when we got married.  I was 29 when I had DefConn, so I'd lived through 6+ years of parenting full time.  It didn't help much in the baby years, but toddler stuff and beyond was old hat.  

But I'm a (I think) thoughtful person who did and does take this shit into account.  So yeah, this hell on wheels would possible become a worse nightmare with her own kid.  The only saving grace for his original kids would be that they have 4 and 6 years before they can GTFO and (maybe) have their mom's home to escape to. 

Jen4948

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

short+sassy

These are always such sad situations.  I'm a big proponent of compromise when there are issues in a relationship.  But this is a problem that can't be solved with compromise.

The H doesn't want another child.  He was clear about that from Day One.  The only way he can save his marriage is if he capitulates and will still love and be a good father to another baby.  But I don't blame him one bit if he doesn't change his mind.  That doesn't make him a bad guy, in the slightest.

As for the wife, I can't fault her for her feelings changing.  It's really sad that happened.  But I do fault her on the outrageous stance she is taking with her anger and "why won't you give me a baby".  Girl, you're the one who suddenly changed the rules.

Edited to add warning...

Warning: discussion of miscarriage and fertility problems for women in their 40s.

I'm also curious if she's even looked at the reality of the situation.  As a 44-year-old myself, I feel like I'm in the prime of life.  I'm still a young, hard charging woman.  I feel like, if I wanted a baby, nbd.  And then I'd look at the statistics (which I did, out of curiousity, recently).  They are ugly once you are 40 or over. 

In regards to fertility and carrying a baby to term, you wouldn't think there is much difference between 39 and 40.  Or 40 and 41.  And so on and so on.  But, statistically, there is.  I was shocked at how visible the decline was.  Even from just one year to another.  For example, at the age of 45, if a woman can even get pregnant (less than a 2% chance when ovulating), she has a 54% chance of a miscarriage.  I was tempted to stop taking my BC, lol.  But, goddamnit, a chance is still a chance.  So I do.

At any rate, wife might blow up her marriage and never be able to get pregnant anyway.  Or she might need fertility treatments, which are emotionally and physically tough.  On top of being very expensive.

Anecdotal evidence!  But I had a friend who got married later in life.  At the age of 38, she conceived within a few months of trying and delivered a healthy, wonderful baby at 39.  They waited about 6 months and started trying for a second.  She never conceived again.  At about 41, she went to her OB/GYN to see what was wrong.  She was told there was physically nothing wrong.  But her age would make it a slim chance that she would be able to conceive and the doctor suggested fertility treatments would be their best chance.

She and her H decided they did not want to go down the fertility route.  They chose "chance" and if it happened, it happened and would be amazing.  But I was happy to see that they at least completely adjusted their expectations.  They hoped, but no longer expected to get pregnant.  They were disappointed, but thankful for their one child.   

levioosa

Jen4948 said:

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

I don’t know if this is fair though. I know people change and all of that, but the two of them communicated before hand and made a hard line of “no kids.” That’s a premise on which they agreed to marry. It would have been equally awful if they had been gung ho for babies and the wife changed her mind and said no. It’s one of those things that you talk about long and hard before marriage (ideally), and if you are on the same page, then you proceed with the marriage. I don’t think this is something he’s a bad guy for not compromising on. It’s not like she said “sure you don’t want kids, and I don’t think I do either, but maybe we’ll reevaluate at some point.” It was no kids from the get go. That’s a huge foundational issue. It isn’t “let’s switch from Italian every Friday to Indian food for dinner.” You can’t compromise on a baby, especially when you were already an adult and you decided on game rules when you first went out. And if she didn’t communicate that maybe she was on the fence about it originally, then that’s also on her. 

short+sassy

levioosa said:

Jen4948 said:

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

I don’t know if this is fair though. I know people change and all of that, but the two of them communicated before hand and made a hard line of “no kids.” That’s a premise on which they agreed to marry. It would have been equally awful if they had been gung ho for babies and the wife changed her mind and said no. It’s one of those things that you talk about long and hard before marriage (ideally), and if you are on the same page, then you proceed with the marriage. I don’t think this is something he’s a bad guy for not compromising on. It’s not like she said “sure you don’t want kids, and I don’t think I do either, but maybe we’ll reevaluate at some point.” It was no kids from the get go. That’s a huge foundational issue. It isn’t “let’s switch from Italian every Friday to Indian food for dinner.” You can’t compromise on a baby, especially when you were already an adult and you decided on game rules when you first went out. And if she didn’t communicate that maybe she was on the fence about it originally, then that’s also on her. 

This totally reminded me of the Sheldon character on the Big Bang Theory, lol.  That would be a fundamental issue for him!

banana468

Granted, this entire situation is from the perspective of the H but it's not painting the wife in a good light.   And from all of that I'm taking that
1) She's not being reasonable if she actually says, "She'll just die."
2) They both share the burden of responsibility if the kids are hearing their discussions that contribute to the marital discord.

LW's wife is allowed to change her mind but LW doesn't have to.   So assuming that LW isn't painting a picture to suit his side and this is the actual truth, this isn't salvageable because in addition to changing her mind he's losing respect for her.  It may not even matter what the truth is if he sees that the discomfort his children have is directly tied to her.  He's going to most likely side with his own offspring over the step parent that he blames for the rift.     The marriage will not recover. 

Jen4948

levioosa said:

Jen4948 said:

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

I don’t know if this is fair though. I know people change and all of that, but the two of them communicated before hand and made a hard line of “no kids.” That’s a premise on which they agreed to marry. It would have been equally awful if they had been gung ho for babies and the wife changed her mind and said no. It’s one of those things that you talk about long and hard before marriage (ideally), and if you are on the same page, then you proceed with the marriage. I don’t think this is something he’s a bad guy for not compromising on. It’s not like she said “sure you don’t want kids, and I don’t think I do either, but maybe we’ll reevaluate at some point.” It was no kids from the get go. That’s a huge foundational issue. It isn’t “let’s switch from Italian every Friday to Indian food for dinner.” You can’t compromise on a baby, especially when you were already an adult and you decided on game rules when you first went out. And if she didn’t communicate that maybe she was on the fence about it originally, then that’s also on her. 

Exactly. She bears responsibility for agreeing to a situation that doesn't allow for compromise and then changing her mind. But he also bears responsibility for making that demand.

It's not wrong of him not to want children, but as long as neither is willing to accept what the other wants, the marriage is going to be troubled. And if neither one is ever going to change his or her current position regardless of how the other one feels so that they'll never be on the same page about this, then there's no marriage left to save.

charlotte989875

Jen4948 said:

levioosa said:

Jen4948 said:

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

I don’t know if this is fair though. I know people change and all of that, but the two of them communicated before hand and made a hard line of “no kids.” That’s a premise on which they agreed to marry. It would have been equally awful if they had been gung ho for babies and the wife changed her mind and said no. It’s one of those things that you talk about long and hard before marriage (ideally), and if you are on the same page, then you proceed with the marriage. I don’t think this is something he’s a bad guy for not compromising on. It’s not like she said “sure you don’t want kids, and I don’t think I do either, but maybe we’ll reevaluate at some point.” It was no kids from the get go. That’s a huge foundational issue. It isn’t “let’s switch from Italian every Friday to Indian food for dinner.” You can’t compromise on a baby, especially when you were already an adult and you decided on game rules when you first went out. And if she didn’t communicate that maybe she was on the fence about it originally, then that’s also on her. 

Exactly. She bears responsibility for agreeing to a situation that doesn't allow for compromise and then changing her mind. But he also bears responsibility for making that demand.

It's not wrong of him not to want children, but as long as neither is willing to accept what the other wants, the marriage is going to be troubled. And if neither one is ever going to change his or her current position regardless of how the other one feels so that they'll never be on the same page about this, then there's no marriage left to save.

I disagree only with the bolded; I absolutely think that people change/evolve/whatever over time. But I think there are some fundamental principles people agree on when going into a marriage. He was (from what we can tell) clear about this being one of his. She agreed to this. Now she is changing her mind. Yes, she is free to do that and no one should fault her for wanting a child, but I don't think it makes him a bad person for sticking to the original principles. 

There are (IMO) very few things in life where there is no possibility of compromises, and this is one of them. I think there are some things that can't be compromised over, and people shouldn't be expected to change their minds over, or be open to, just because the other person deviated from the agreed upon choice. 

Ro041

I agree with @charlotte989875.  H and I made the joint decision that we didn't want kids before we married.  We very much remain on the same page about that.  If he changed his mind, I wouldn't feel like I was making any demands by saying that I wasn't willing to change my mind.  I would feel very much backed into a corner if he changed his mind and told me he would die without a kid.  Nope, buddy.  We talked about this and you agreed to it.  Either LW's wife needs to come to terms with not having kids, or get out of the marriage so she can have kids of her own.  

short+sassy

Ro041 said:

I agree with @charlotte989875.  H and I made the joint decision that we didn't want kids before we married.  We very much remain on the same page about that.  If he changed his mind, I wouldn't feel like I was making any demands by saying that I wasn't willing to change my mind.  I would feel very much backed into a corner if he changed his mind and told me he would die without a kid.  Nope, buddy.  We talked about this and you agreed to it.  Either LW's wife needs to come to terms with not having kids, or get out of the marriage so she can have kids of her own.  

I met my H when I was 25ish.  He is 10 years older than me and already had 4 daughters between two ex-wives.  Kids were definitely off the table for him.  At that time, I was slightly open to the idea of kids...like if I fell in love with someone who really wanted them...but had never actually felt a desire to have them and leaned more heavily to "no".  Great!

As things got more serious, I did occasionally have a niggle of a worry that an overwhelming desire to have a child...that so many other people seem to experience...would hit me like a ton of bricks one day.  And then where would we be.

Thankfully, that never happened.  In fact, it was just the opposite.  The more time progressed, the more awful having children sounded to me.

My dog and cat are needy enough for my attention (said with love and a smile).  And insist on being fed all the time, lol.  I've heard rumors that children are like this x100, lol.  But I bet the love and smiles are too.

downtondiva

Ro041 said:

I agree with @charlotte989875.  H and I made the joint decision that we didn't want kids before we married.  We very much remain on the same page about that.  If he changed his mind, I wouldn't feel like I was making any demands by saying that I wasn't willing to change my mind.  I would feel very much backed into a corner if he changed his mind and told me he would die without a kid.  Nope, buddy.  We talked about this and you agreed to it.  Either LW's wife needs to come to terms with not having kids, or get out of the marriage so she can have kids of her own.  

This is where I'm at. I don't blame LW's wife for changing her mind; we can't really control our feelings or how they change over time. However, I don't think that obligates LW to back down from not wanting more kids when he was extremely clear from very early on about that. 

It's a sad situation, and I hate saying this, but I honestly don't see how they can make the marriage work at this point. Having kids is not something you can "agree to disagree" on. It sounds like the wife is very dramatic and even manipulative, not to mention already very resentful toward LW about his not wanting to have any more children and is blaming him for whatever problems they are having. That's a very tough situation to come back from. 

Jen4948

I'm not accusing either party of wrongdoing. I think that either position is okay. But if you (generic) stick to yours and the other person changes their mind about having a baby, and neither of you is willing to change so you can once more get on the same page, then your marriage is over.

By "responsibility" all I mean is that both are staking out incompatible positions and neither one is willing to budge. Like PPs say, that's a very sad situation. It doesn't mean either is right or wrong.

climbingsingle

Jen4948 said:

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

I don't really think that's fair to him. Before my H and I got married, we decided we were not having kids. If 5 years later, he now told me he wanted a baby, I'm supposed to change my mind too then? Maybe "it died" when she decided she needed a baby and that was that. 

ernursej

Very unfortunate. I think this is a relationship that cannot be saved. It is too bad that the wife is so much about her own kids. Perhaps she could volunteer with a infant respite cottage or work with small children and that would be a good compromise. It may not work but if they went into the marriage saying a hard no for kids, then it isn't fair to be upset that the husband doesn't want to bend to her wishes. Kids are a lot of work. Everyone should be enthusiastically onboard.

kerbohl

ernursej said:

Very unfortunate. I think this is a relationship that cannot be saved. It is too bad that the wife is so much about her own kids. Perhaps she could volunteer with a infant respite cottage or work with small children and that would be a good compromise. It may not work but if they went into the marriage saying a hard no for kids, then it isn't fair to be upset that the husband doesn't want to bend to her wishes. Kids are a lot of work. Everyone should be enthusiastically onboard.

I was just thinking that. But then again, she has kids - she has a step daughter and step son - and that doesn't seem to be enough for her. Would working with the children of strangers scratch this itch for her? Or maybe it is the infant stage, not just kids in general. 
I don't know. I feel for the LW. If DH told me that he needs to have kids all of the sudden, I'm still a hard no, but I would hate to see him upset about something so big. It must be devastating to want to fix the marriage knowing that you can't without doing something you really don't want to go through.

Jen4948

climbingwife said:

Jen4948 said:

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

I don't really think that's fair to him. Before my H and I got married, we decided we were not having kids. If 5 years later, he now told me he wanted a baby, I'm supposed to change my mind too then? Maybe "it died" when she decided she needed a baby and that was that. 

Whether it's fair or not, he made a decision when they decided to get married that didn't allow for the possibility that his wife would change her mind. She agreed to it when they got married because she wanted to be married to him. Now she feels differently. But both are responsible for their current situation.

Since there doesn't appear to be any likelihood that he will change his mind about having children or that she will revert to her earlier agreement not to have any, I don't think their marriage can be saved.

banana468

Jen4948 said:

climbingwife said:

Jen4948 said:

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

I don't really think that's fair to him. Before my H and I got married, we decided we were not having kids. If 5 years later, he now told me he wanted a baby, I'm supposed to change my mind too then? Maybe "it died" when she decided she needed a baby and that was that. 

Whether it's fair or not, he made a decision when they decided to get married that didn't allow for the possibility that his wife would change her mind. She agreed to it when they got married because she wanted to be married to him. Now she feels differently. But both are responsible for their current situation.

Since there doesn't appear to be any likelihood that he will change his mind about having children or that she will revert to her earlier agreement not to have any, I don't think their marriage can be saved.

That's a hell of an assumption to make.   There's no clue at all in any of the writing that tells us this. 

They're only both responsible in that this is a conflict that can only be resolved if two people are in agreement.   However there was no conflict 6 years ago and now there is because SHE changed her mind.   Whether she truly did not agree with him and only said it out loud 6 years ago is not stated anywhere.   And if the bolded IS true then no, SHE is responsible for the current situation because they wouldn't have been in this pickle had she spoken up before they tied TK. 

That said, we have NO WAY of knowing if the bolded is actually true.

climbingsingle

banana468 said:

Jen4948 said:

climbingwife said:

Jen4948 said:

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

I don't really think that's fair to him. Before my H and I got married, we decided we were not having kids. If 5 years later, he now told me he wanted a baby, I'm supposed to change my mind too then? Maybe "it died" when she decided she needed a baby and that was that. 

Whether it's fair or not, he made a decision when they decided to get married that didn't allow for the possibility that his wife would change her mind. She agreed to it when they got married because she wanted to be married to him. Now she feels differently. But both are responsible for their current situation.

Since there doesn't appear to be any likelihood that he will change his mind about having children or that she will revert to her earlier agreement not to have any, I don't think their marriage can be saved.

That's a hell of an assumption to make.   There's no clue at all in any of the writing that tells us this. 

They're only both responsible in that this is a conflict that can only be resolved if two people are in agreement.   However there was no conflict 6 years ago and now there is because SHE changed her mind.   Whether she truly did not agree with him and only said it out loud 6 years ago is not stated anywhere.   And if the bolded IS true then no, SHE is responsible for the current situation because they wouldn't have been in this pickle had she spoken up before they tied TK. 

That said, we have NO WAY of knowing if the bolded is actually true.

I was just coming to say the same thing. His letter also clearly states he was clear about not wanting kids while they were dating, and that she also agreed she didn't want children. It sounds like they BOTH agreed to not have any more children. 
How is he responsible for the conflict when he's not the one that changed his mind years later? 

PrettyGirlLost

climbingwife said:

banana468 said:

That's a hell of an assumption to make.   There's no clue at all in any of the writing that tells us this. 

They're only both responsible in that this is a conflict that can only be resolved if two people are in agreement.   However there was no conflict 6 years ago and now there is because SHE changed her mind.   Whether she truly did not agree with him and only said it out loud 6 years ago is not stated anywhere.   And if the bolded IS true then no, SHE is responsible for the current situation because they wouldn't have been in this pickle had she spoken up before they tied TK. 

That said, we have NO WAY of knowing if the bolded is actually true.

I was just coming to say the same thing. His letter also clearly states he was clear about not wanting kids while they were dating, and that she also agreed she didn't want children. It sounds like they BOTH agreed to not have any more children. 
How is he responsible for the conflict when he's not the one that changed his mind years later? 

He's not.

I'm with you guys on this one, Banana and Climbing.

I've been CF from day one, pretty much, and as a woman I have had to endure the comments of "oh, you'll change your mind" from the age of 12 until only a few years ago, and I'm almost 40.  Ugh, it was absolutely fucking obnoxious!

Women like the LW's wife are the reason why people who are 100% CF from a young age are never taken seriously. 

In my experience, and this is going to contradict what Lovesclimbing said, and the reported experiences of CF people across many different forums and in many articles (online and print), few people who are truly  CF ever change their mind about having kids.  We know we are CF at 12, 20, 30, etc.  We never get Baby Rabies, no matter who around is having kids nor whom we marry. And we are typically 100% upfront with our partners as the relationships get serious that we in no way ever want a child, nor will have one with you.  Because the LW's scenario is our worst nightmare.

But Fencesitters change their minds.  And people who actually want kids but lie to their partners because they think their partners will change their minds, seemingly change their minds.

I read multiple versions of this letter on Reddit subs every day.  I'd bet 1 million dollars Wife didn't change her mind, that she always wanted a child with the LW and was just waiting for him to settle down in their marriage and "change his mind."

charlotte989875

PrettyGirlLost said:

climbingwife said:

banana468 said:

That's a hell of an assumption to make.   There's no clue at all in any of the writing that tells us this. 

They're only both responsible in that this is a conflict that can only be resolved if two people are in agreement.   However there was no conflict 6 years ago and now there is because SHE changed her mind.   Whether she truly did not agree with him and only said it out loud 6 years ago is not stated anywhere.   And if the bolded IS true then no, SHE is responsible for the current situation because they wouldn't have been in this pickle had she spoken up before they tied TK. 

That said, we have NO WAY of knowing if the bolded is actually true.

I was just coming to say the same thing. His letter also clearly states he was clear about not wanting kids while they were dating, and that she also agreed she didn't want children. It sounds like they BOTH agreed to not have any more children. 
How is he responsible for the conflict when he's not the one that changed his mind years later? 

He's not.

I'm with you guys on this one, Banana and Climbing.

I've been CF from day one, pretty much, and as a woman I have had to endure the comments of "oh, you'll change your mind" from the age of 12 until only a few years ago, and I'm almost 40.  Ugh, it was absolutely fucking obnoxious!

Women like the LW's wife are the reason why people who are 100% CF from a young age are never taken seriously. 

In my experience, and this is going to contradict what Lovesclimbing said, and the reported experiences of CF people across many different forums and in many articles (online and print), few people who are truly  CF ever change their mind about having kids.  We know we are CF at 12, 20, 30, etc.  We never get Baby Rabies, no matter who around is having kids nor whom we marry. And we are typically 100% upfront with our partners as the relationships get serious that we in no way ever want a child, nor will have one with you.  Because the LW's scenario is our worst nightmare.

But Fencesitters change their minds.  And people who actually want kids but lie to their partners because they think their partners will change their minds, seemingly change their minds.

I read multiple versions of this letter on Reddit subs every day.  I'd bet 1 million dollars Wife didn't change her mind, that she always wanted a child with the LW and was just waiting for him to settle down in their marriage and "change his mind."

I agree with all of this. 

H and I are both Fencesitters. We were when we met. And now we're both like "yeah, one at some point would be okay". But we were never CF from day one. We were never tons-of-babies, either. 

The lying is the problem. And why women are never taken seriously (well, part of the reason, #patriarchy). I think it needs to be far, far more acceptable to be CF, unsure, and totally sure about having kids. All these choices are equally valid, but certainly aren't treated that way. 

ernursej

H and I are 100% CF. If H ever came to me saying he wanted children, I wouldn't be able to make him happy and myself happy. I think people need to have very clear conversations about children and be 100% honest. It is better to say I'm not sure than agree with something you haven't thought through.

kerbohl

PrettyGirlLost said:

climbingwife said:

banana468 said:

That's a hell of an assumption to make.   There's no clue at all in any of the writing that tells us this. 

They're only both responsible in that this is a conflict that can only be resolved if two people are in agreement.   However there was no conflict 6 years ago and now there is because SHE changed her mind.   Whether she truly did not agree with him and only said it out loud 6 years ago is not stated anywhere.   And if the bolded IS true then no, SHE is responsible for the current situation because they wouldn't have been in this pickle had she spoken up before they tied TK. 

That said, we have NO WAY of knowing if the bolded is actually true.

I was just coming to say the same thing. His letter also clearly states he was clear about not wanting kids while they were dating, and that she also agreed she didn't want children. It sounds like they BOTH agreed to not have any more children. 
How is he responsible for the conflict when he's not the one that changed his mind years later? 

He's not.

I'm with you guys on this one, Banana and Climbing.

I've been CF from day one, pretty much, and as a woman I have had to endure the comments of "oh, you'll change your mind" from the age of 12 until only a few years ago, and I'm almost 40.  Ugh, it was absolutely fucking obnoxious!

Women like the LW's wife are the reason why people who are 100% CF from a young age are never taken seriously. 

In my experience, and this is going to contradict what Lovesclimbing said, and the reported experiences of CF people across many different forums and in many articles (online and print), few people who are truly  CF ever change their mind about having kids.  We know we are CF at 12, 20, 30, etc.  We never get Baby Rabies, no matter who around is having kids nor whom we marry. And we are typically 100% upfront with our partners as the relationships get serious that we in no way ever want a child, nor will have one with you.  Because the LW's scenario is our worst nightmare.

But Fencesitters change their minds.  And people who actually want kids but lie to their partners because they think their partners will change their minds, seemingly change their minds.

I read multiple versions of this letter on Reddit subs every day.  I'd bet 1 million dollars Wife didn't change her mind, that she always wanted a child with the LW and was just waiting for him to settle down in their marriage and "change his mind."

I have been ludicrously lucky as of late in these regards. When I first got married, despite most people knowing that I was CF by choice, I got so many "you'll change your mind" comments. It just really makes me feel juvenile, because another way of saying that comment is "you don't know what you're talking about when you say you don't want kids but I know what's really going on".  No, no you don't - I'm not changing my mind.  This is who I am, who I've always been.  Kids aren't for me.

But I haven't had those comments for so long now. It makes me happy that it seems people are starting to see that CF is indeed a way of life for some couples.  Of course, now that I've said something, today someone is going to say something to me ...

The second bolded is also my nightmare.

levioosa

charlotte989875 said:

Jen4948 said:

levioosa said:

Jen4948 said:

There isn't any way to save your marriage, fella. It died when you decided that no matter how your wife was feeling about having kids, you didn't want any and left no room for the possibility that she might change her mind.

This is not to say that your wife doesn't bear responsibility for the problem, because yes, I can sympathize that having told her that you don't want any more children, her bringing it up nonstop and claiming she'll "die" if she doesn't have a baby is annoying. But as long as you are each insisting on your own way, in a situation that doesn't allow for compromise, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

I don’t know if this is fair though. I know people change and all of that, but the two of them communicated before hand and made a hard line of “no kids.” That’s a premise on which they agreed to marry. It would have been equally awful if they had been gung ho for babies and the wife changed her mind and said no. It’s one of those things that you talk about long and hard before marriage (ideally), and if you are on the same page, then you proceed with the marriage. I don’t think this is something he’s a bad guy for not compromising on. It’s not like she said “sure you don’t want kids, and I don’t think I do either, but maybe we’ll reevaluate at some point.” It was no kids from the get go. That’s a huge foundational issue. It isn’t “let’s switch from Italian every Friday to Indian food for dinner.” You can’t compromise on a baby, especially when you were already an adult and you decided on game rules when you first went out. And if she didn’t communicate that maybe she was on the fence about it originally, then that’s also on her. 

Exactly. She bears responsibility for agreeing to a situation that doesn't allow for compromise and then changing her mind. But he also bears responsibility for making that demand.

It's not wrong of him not to want children, but as long as neither is willing to accept what the other wants, the marriage is going to be troubled. And if neither one is ever going to change his or her current position regardless of how the other one feels so that they'll never be on the same page about this, then there's no marriage left to save.

I disagree only with the bolded; I absolutely think that people change/evolve/whatever over time. But I think there are some fundamental principles people agree on when going into a marriage. He was (from what we can tell) clear about this being one of his. She agreed to this. Now she is changing her mind. Yes, she is free to do that and no one should fault her for wanting a child, but I don't think it makes him a bad person for sticking to the original principles. 

There are (IMO) very few things in life where there is no possibility of compromises, and this is one of them. I think there are some things that can't be compromised over, and people shouldn't be expected to change their minds over, or be open to, just because the other person deviated from the agreed upon choice. 

Yes. All of this.