do i get to give him a ring?

Liz4444

not sure how to start with this... we met with a rabbi last night, he is an orthodox rabbi.  my family and i are very reformed, more culturally jewish than religious.  my fiance and his family belong to an orthodox shul and while they aren't overly religious, they want an orthodox rabbi/ceremony.  when we were meeting with the rabbi, he said that michael gives me a ring and vows to me, but i do not give a ring or vow to him.  if we do want me to give him a ring, it has to be done later in the ceremony, and preferably i am silent and just slip it on his finger.  Michael is not OK with this, he wants me to give him his ring and vow to him right after he does for me.  has anyone else come across this?  the rabbi wouldn't really give us a good reason why it couldn't be the way we want it other than, "it's jewish law".  if he could come up with a good reason, we would be ok, but he seemed to just be shrugging us off.  he said that he knows some rabbis that will allow it to happen, he just won't do it.  michael's mother wants us to use this rabbi because he is the assistant rabbi at her brother's shul, again, not a good enough reason for us.  is anyone else having or has anyone else had an orthodox ceremony?  how did you do/are you doing the rings?  does anyone know an orthodox rabbi in Manhattan that would be willing to let us do it at the same time?

Shoshie

Typically Orthodox rabbis are a no go on the double rings. If it is important to you to have, you might want to consider a different rabbi. We did double rings, we had a traditional service with two reform rabbis.

Liz4444

he won't use a reform rabbi, so we are kind of at an impasse...

Shoshie

Conservative rabbis will also allow you to exchange rings.Then again if during the service you just gave him his ring, the rabbi really couldn't do anything.

Liz4444

that's part of the problem, the rabbi said i can quietly slip the ring onto his finger, but michael wants me to say the vows as well... and he wants to do it immediately after he gives me mine bc the rabbi said i could say the vow as long as we do it after the sheva brachot (sp?)... but michael's not happy with that answer. 

Shoshie

He can't really have it both ways. He has to decide which is more important: the ring with the vows or having an Orthodox rabbi.

Shoshie

I know it is a hard decision ... someone else on here could probably get into why rabbis don't like double-ring ceremonies.

2dBride

In Orthodox tradition, the bride cannot give the groom a ring because the groom giving something of value to the bride is one of the conditions for marriage.  If the bride were to give something to the groom, there is the risk that this would be seen as the groom not having "given" anything, because he received something (the other ring) in exchange for the ring he is giving you.The basic problem you are running into is that any attempt to make the wedding more egalitarian is going to be a problem in an Orthodox wedding.  You'll have similar issues with the ketubah, since the only version of that allowed in an Orthodox wedding is the Aramaic version, a translation of which can be read [url=http://www.galleryjudaica.com/articles/TradText.html]here[/url].  Ultimately, you will need to decide whether a tradition that will not allow reciprocal vows, rings, etc. is a tradition in which you want to be married.

tenofcups4me

Sounds like your FH is being a little "difficult" -- HE wants the Orthodox wedding, but he also wants to do things that tradition won't allow. Something's going to have to give. And where are your thoughts in all this? I grew up similarly to you and there's no way I would ever have agreed to get married in an Orthodox ceremony. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but it's surprising to me that you don't seem to have much of an opinion about the ceremony (your post talks about what your FH and his mother want; not what you want). Sounds like the two of you need to have some more discussions to ensure you're creating a ceremony you're both comfortable with.

Liz4444

we were discussing this last night, because we also have the name of a conservative rabbi.  and he said with a conservative rabbi, we won't be doing the circling 7 times or the bedecking ceremony.  i asked him, which is more important to him, that or the rings?  he said that the circling and the bedecking are more important and that he will most likely give on the rings and go with this rabbi. 

Liz4444

when it comes to the religious aspects of the wedding, he and his family are much more religious than my family and i are.  because it is much more important to him, i am willing to do whatever he wants in regards to the religious aspect of the ceremony.  it may sound naive, but for me, the only difference is that i will have to wear a veil and cover my shoulders under the chuppah.  he is in charge of all things religious, the rest of the wedding is mine!

tenofcups4me

I have to ask again -- don't you have ANY opinions about any of this? All you've reported is his decisions on each of these important elements. Don't you have any thoughts? I'm certain someone else can answer this part better than I can, but I was under the understanding that you could circle and have a bedecken if you want at any Jewish ceremony -- that they wouldn't be "required" with a Reform rabbi for example, but I'd be very surprised if they weren't allowed.

tenofcups4me

Sorry, we cross-posted! I see you answered my question a minute before I posted it again. To be honest, I still find it really weird that you don't care at all about what kind of ceremony you're going to have, but if it works for you, then it's none of my business.

Liz4444

he wouldn't be happy with a reform ceremony and i'm not uncomfortable with an orthodox one.  it's a tradition that he feels much more strongly about than i do, and i'm ok with it.  if there was something extremely important to me or that i was uncomfortable with, he would obviously listen and be flexible. 

penaltyshot

I had a Conservative ceremony. We exchanged rings and vows. While we both circled 3 times and then once together, my rabbi said that it was totally up to us and if I wanted, I could've done the 7 circles myself. We did a bedeken as well, so I don't see why other Conservative rabbis would say no to that. Maybe Reform rabbis wouldn't really do it, but Conservative ones should.

BenandDina

I had a Conservative ceremony, and the Rabbi did do a circling and all the other aspects of an Orthodox ceremony, but I could wear my strapless dress (using my veil as a shoulder covering), and we got to exchange rings and vows.  I got to say, "I am beloved's, and my beloved is mine", after Ben said the traditional, "With this ring, you are consecrated onto me by the laws of Moses and Israel". My Dad wanted an Orthodox ceremony; but he was okay with a Conservative one.  You have to discuss with your FI what is more important to him, having an Orthodox ceremony or having you say the vows.  I personally prefer a more egalitarian service, so a Conservative service was a better fit for me.  However, even our Orthodox guests (my Stepbrother's family) were fine with our Rabbi.

Shoshie

We had two Reform rabbis who understood we wanted something a little more traditional -- we did a bedecking AND we did the 3-3-1 circling. We also had two traditional witnesses for the ketubbah (Aramaic section), as well as two non-traditioanl witnesses for the English section. We did the Sheva brachot during the ceremony and the reception as well. I've seen reform, conservative and reconstructionist rabbis who are very flexible and open to making the ceremony more traditional. I've yet to see an Orthodox rabbi go less traditional.I think you need to discuss what you both want ... it is a wedding for both of you, not just one of you.

silversparks

First to echo the pps - As 2dbride explained, the halacha on double ring ceremonies is that the bride can't be seen to be giving the groom anything as an exchange - the process of the groom giving the bride a ring is called "kinyan", literally "to acquire" and the bride isn't being acquired if she's giving him something in return. To the best of my knowledge, most Orthodox rabbis will not do a double ring ceremony. Almost all Conservative rabbis will, although to avoid the "exchange", most have the caveat that the bride can't give the groom his ring immediately after he gives hers to her, and she can't use the same formula "you are hereby consecrated to me...". Every Conservative and Orthodox wedding I have ever attended included a badeken and some circling - we did 3-3-1 as others have described. What I think is really tripping us up here is the labels - there are huge disparities in what different Orthodox, Conservative, or any other "rabbi" will ask of a couple and think is appropriate for a ceremony. In this specific case, I think it's important for you to sit down with FI and lay out how you both want the ceremony to work. You may also want to talk about who has input when it comes to religious and other wedding decision making (how important is it to you what his mother or another family member, clergy, or anyone else wants?) Then talk to your rabbi and find out what all his requirements are - is the double ring ceremony the beginning or is he going to have other limitations on ketubah wording or who can participate? It's definitely his perogative to establish what his halachic limits are, but if BOTH YOU AND FI are not comfortable with him, it's time to investigate other rabbis. My concern reading your post is that you're going to resolve the ring/vows issue, and then you'll be having conversations about ketubahs, then sheva brachot, etc. A Jewish wedding is a religious ceremony, and it should reflect the Judaism that you and your FI feel most comfortable with as part of your lives. Good luck!

Liz4444

deborah and everyone else, thank you for your help.  we did like this rabbi and what he had to say, he just really wasn't giving us a good explanation as to why we couldn't do the rings at the same time.  we are also going to be talking to a conservative rabbi. 

slbriz34

I'm probably just going to add much of what has already been said... An Orthodox rabbi *cannot* allow a double-ring ceremony; fact.  What your FI's family rabbi indicated is true and he cannot undo this.  If you want to do vows and exchange rings, then the ceremony must be performed by someone other than an Orthodox rabbi. Conservative then is certainly the way to go; and you can find a traditional conservative rabbi that will work with you both - there *are* varing degrees of Conservative rabbis.  That the one you spoke to wouldn't allow you to circle or do a bedeken must mean that he's far left leaning because I've never heard of a Conservative rabbi (or the movement for that matter) not allowing a couple to do this. You should do a lot of talking to each other and find a rabbi that works for you both.  While you want to keep a peaceful home and relations with the future-in laws, ultimately it's your day and you are standing before HaShem under the chuppah.  The ceremony should be what you both want, otherwise you stand before Him not really saying and doing what's from the heart. GL.

Liz4444

we haven't spoken to the conservative rabbi yet, michael assumed that he wouldn't do the circling and the bedecken because he had only seen them at orthodox ceremonies and i'm not informed enough about the rituals to know either way.  he also had seemed to remember seeing the ring exchange at orthodox ceremonies, but i guess he was mis-remembering.  i want to thank you all, you have been very helpful, i'm going to let him know that a conservative rabbi will do those if we want.

chicagoamber

Our reform rabbi gave up the option of doing the 7 circles (we decided to do 3 each and 1 together though) and we could also do a bedeken if we wanted. So it might just be about finding the right rabbi.

masteraleph

If you're still interested in the two ring thing, ask him if R' Dov Linzer's two ring ceremony would be ok. It wouldn't be the exact same in terms of vows- his accepting it is a validation of his accepting the terms of the ketubahs- but it might be something that your rabbi would allow.

Liz4444

masteraleph, i will show this to michael.  thank you!