Catholic Weddings

Some moral questions to ponder

Here are some moral questions I've heard recently, and would love to hear your opinions, and then, of course, analyze and dissect so we can have a further understanding :)  Let's all be nice, but honest.  I don't know about you, but sometimes I (attempt to) refute someone's points not because I think they're bad points, but because I think they're onto something, and want to see if it holds as much water as I think it might!  And more than once, I have changed my opinion on something based off of a conversation on this very board.  Ready, set, go!

1.  There's a couple who is able to conceive somewhat easily, but miscarries within the first trimester.  After 5 miscarriages in under 12 months, a friend tells the couple that they are being reckless with life, and should not try to conceive anymore since they know that the child will most likely die before birth. --- Does it ever become irresponsible, and perhaps sinful, to continue conceiving in this sort of circumstance? 

2.  Some people seem very quick to judge NFP users as having a "contraceptive mentality."  In your experience, how common is this mentality amongst NFP'ers?  Do you think that many of those who dislike NFP in this way are being perhaps scrupulous, or do you think there's a real danger to abuse NFP?

 

Re: Some moral questions to ponder

  • 1.  I can see how, after awhile, it might seem reckless, particularly if the couple isn't doing anything to prevent the miscarriages.  I mean, if the wife is drinking, lifting 100+ boxes on the daily, and going ice skating (and falling) a few times a week, I might think "wow, she's not respecting her pregnant body/the baby growing in it!"  Disrespecting the body can certainly be sinful.  On the other hand, I might also get annoyed at her if she's taking vitamins, getting plenty of rest, etc., but not seeing the doctor to determine if there's something she could do to have a sustainable pregnancy.  I might also think "wow, she should probably give her body some time to heal after all these miscarriages!"  I think it's hard in the later two examples to know whether it's a sin, unless you're the potential sinner and really think about it.  Parents should be responsible in their parenting, and I think that can include doing all they can to have healthy pregnancies resulting in healthy babies.

    2.  If you're TTA and practicing NFP in a legit way -- and I mean abstaining during fertile times-- then I think it's actually kinda hard to have a contraceptive mentality.  If you were using barrier methods during fertile periods, than sure.  But if you're abstaining, I think that probably means you take TOB pretty seriously.  So in general, I don't think a contraceptive mentality is all that common amongst NFP users.  I also know that most methods really encourage prayer and discussions regarding family planning, and so I'd imagine this is something adopted by NFP users.  If you're praying and regularly discussing your family planning goals on a monthly basis, again, I think that helps you avoid a contraceptive mentality.  In my experience, NFP users are not contraceptive in body or mind, and actually WANT to welcome children (often many!) into their homes.  They just want to do it in a way that makes sense and keeps things peaceful!

     

  • I don't really think "contraceptive mentality" is a very legit term.  It may be possible that a couple could be using NFP for selfish reasons (such as, "I just don't want kids" or "I want to be able to travel the world for a few years first"), but I wouldn't call that contraceptive, since contraception is sinful for a very specific reason, namely, that it separates sex from procreation.

    A "contraceptive mentality" implies that the couple is separating sex from procreation in mentality only... which doesn't make much sense.

    People use the term to describe the mentality of some of those who use contraception, but not all those who use contraception do so for selfish or unnecessary means.  For some, they have very serious reasons not to have children, but their only sin is using the wrong means (contraception instead of NFP).

    Now, if you're asking whether I think a lot of NFP users use it for selfish reasons?  No, I don't, at all.  I think the challenges and sacrifices of NFP inspire selflessness, so most couples are probably using it for legitimate reasons.

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  • The word contraception is "against conception". It's been applied more specifically to some sort of device/barrier/hormone that separates the act - procreation and unity.

    I think contraceptive mentality makes sense, and is possible, but I think the challenging aspects, and sacrifices necessary to carry out NFP is a built in filter to make it difficult to get that way. 


  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-moral-questions-to-ponder?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1d7e32c9-94e4-405b-ba0c-645436b1869fPost:029eb664-164e-408c-bd3d-8658f160aaae">Re: Some moral questions to ponder</a>:
    [QUOTE]The word contraception is "against conception". It's been applied more specifically to some sort of device/barrier/hormone that separates the act - procreation and unity. I think contraceptive mentality makes sense, and is possible, but I think the challenging aspects, and sacrifices necessary to carry out NFP is a built in filter to make it difficult to get that way. 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    I understand what the word means, but when you define it so broadly, you have people arguing that NFP is a form of contraception.

    It's missing the key difference between NFP and contraception, and that is trying to have sex while purposefully negating the procreative aspect of the act of sex itself. 

    It's not wrong to not pursue procreation at a given time.  Or else NFP would be wrong too.  The key sin is in trying to divide sex from procreation, in fact destroying the procreative aspect.  I don't think it is possible, therefore, to be contraceptive in mentality. 

    "Not being open to life" doesn't mean the exact same thing as "contraceptive" is my point.  So I understand what "contraceptive mentality" is trying to say, but I think it muddles the terms.  Using the phrase "contraceptive mentality" confuses the issue because it makes it harder to see the difference between NFP and contraception.  A person using NFP cannot commit the sin of contraception.  Saying they can commit the sin of having a "contraceptive mentality," I think, just gets people confused.  The issue is better framed in terms of analyzing <em>why</em> they're using it.

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  • I'm speaking more in philosophical/theological terms. Not pastoral or practical approaches.

    Therefore, I stand by what I said. Against or anti conception can be a mentality. 

    There was a huge long facebook back and forth by a deacon I know who has a TOB blog discussing this very issue. Can't seem to pull it up.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-moral-questions-to-ponder?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1d7e32c9-94e4-405b-ba0c-645436b1869fPost:3fc9b5d8-12e2-4fb6-8edb-7d9a1d6eacc3">Re: Some moral questions to ponder</a>:
    [QUOTE]I'm speaking more in philosophical/theological terms. Not pastoral or practical approaches. Therefore, I stand by what I said. <strong>Against or anti conception can be a mentality. </strong> There was a huge long facebook back and forth by a deacon I know who has a TOB blog discussing this very issue. Can't seem to pull it up.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    Again, but what does that mean?  If I'm TTA, and I'm not in favor of conceiving a child for a while (because of whatever just reason), couldn't that be seen as a mentality that is temporarily against conception?  You may still be open to the possibility of a child occurring, but you REALLY don't want a child at the time.  The church says this is perfectly moral to strive not to have a child for a just reason, so I just don't think it's sufficient to say that it's wrong to have a "mentality against conception."  It's too vague.

    There's nothing in TOB or anything that specifically addresses a "contraceptive mentality". 

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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    edited December 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-moral-questions-to-ponder?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1d7e32c9-94e4-405b-ba0c-645436b1869fPost:e00c1734-4262-423e-a33a-353ebe6eb833">Re: Some moral questions to ponder</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some moral questions to ponder : Again, but what does that mean?  If I'm TTA, and I'm not in favor of conceiving a child for a while (because of whatever just reason), couldn't that be seen as a mentality that is temporarily against conception?  You may still be open to the possibility of a child occurring, but you REALLY don't want a child at the time.  The church says this is perfectly moral to strive not to have a child for a just reason, so I just don't think it's sufficient to say that it's wrong to have a "mentality against conception."  It's too vague. There's nothing in TOB or anything that specifically addresses a "contraceptive mentality". 
    Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

    <div>I would say there is a subtle nuance between the words "against" and "Avoiding"</div><div>
    </div><div>A couple, whose standard is to not avoid pregnancy, but runs into a temporary situation that makes it necessary, is not "against conception" ... They are avoiding it. </div><div>
    </div><div>A couple who has a permanent intention against children, (so much so that it invalidates the marriage) has a contraceptive mentality. </div><div>
    </div><div>It's talking about an overall state I think, not each particular act. </div><div>
    </div><div>As I said originally, I think the sacrifices needed for NFP are a filter to keep this from happening much.</div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-moral-questions-to-ponder?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1d7e32c9-94e4-405b-ba0c-645436b1869fPost:fe7a411b-217b-4f0c-b468-2d72595896e5">Re: Some moral questions to ponder</a>:
    [QUOTE]1.  I can see how, after awhile, it might seem reckless, particularly if the couple isn't doing anything to prevent the miscarriages.  I mean, if the wife is drinking, lifting 100+ boxes on the daily, and going ice skating (and falling) a few times a week, I might think "wow, she's not respecting her pregnant body/the baby growing in it!"  Disrespecting the body can certainly be sinful.  On the other hand, I might also get annoyed at her if she's taking vitamins, getting plenty of rest, etc., but not seeing the doctor to determine if there's something she could do to have a sustainable pregnancy.  I might also think "wow, she should probably give her body some time to heal after all these miscarriages!"  I think it's hard in the later two examples to know whether it's a sin, unless you're the potential sinner and really think about it.  <strong>Parents should be responsible in their parenting, and I think that can include doing all they can to have healthy pregnancies resulting in healthy babies. </strong>posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

    * Note: I have never been pregnant, and have no personal experince of this topic- just my belieft*

    I think that if the woman is reckless with caring for her body while <em>knowing</em> that she is indeed pregnant, then it is sinful. I mean, if you happen to get pregnant 4-6 weeks (depending on your natural cycles and how stress levels etc effect them) before you move/help a friend move/head out to a raging party/take part in contact sports and do not know that you are pregnant, then it's a simple mistake. The miscarriage would have happened prior to even knowing that there was a pregnancy. I do, however, think that if a couple is trying to get pregnant and notice her period isn't on a normal cycle, she should be more careful with her body because there is a possiblity of pregnancy.

    If a woman is trying to conceive, taking all of the right steps and still experiencing many miscarriages, she is being reckless to both the child and especially her own body. I would think that after 2 consecutive miscarriages, she would visit a doctor to see what's going on. At 5 within a 12 month period, she is indeed being reckless. I think she does need to let her body heal and develop a plan with her husband and doctor.

    If you're doing everything correctly and miscarry, I don't beleive that it is a sin in itself, but to continue on that same path is not only wrong, but I think it must be emotionally draining- to lose 5 potential children in such a short amount of time!

    I also firmly agree with your last statement : Parents should be responsible in their parenting, and I think that can include doing all they can to have healthy pregnancies resulting in healthy babies.
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  • 1.  There's a couple who is able to conceive somewhat easily, but miscarries within the first trimester.  After 5 miscarriages in under 12 months, a friend tells the couple that they are being reckless with life, and should not try to conceive anymore since they know that the child will most likely die before birth. --- Does it ever become irresponsible, and perhaps sinful, to continue conceiving in this sort of circumstance?


    What I got from this is actually different than the responses I'm seeing.  I'm viewing it as the parents aren't doing anything to harm the baby, they just keep miscarrying.  Because they are miscarrying so much, they shouldn't be TTC to begin with because the baby will just die anyway.


    I don't think it's sinful at all.  God has full control of life.  When it begins, when it ends.  I don't find it sinful at all to continue to TTC even if there's a high chance it won't make it to term.
  • I think 5 times in a year is quite excessive... I mean... is that even possible?! (I mean, I guess it is, but that must mean that that couple is extremely fertile!)
    What if it were only 3 times a year? Some doctors don't want you to even come to them with infertility issues until it's either been a year or you've had 3. I don't think 3 in one year is irresponsible at all. (I've never had a miscarriage, but I do know that it's quite common to have early miscarriages, so it can't be like there is something "wrong" with all these people that have one necessarily.)
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  • I would try to be as empathetic as possible.  Having seen what women who miscarry go through is heartbreaking.  If the person knows they are pregnant and telling people then I would assume they are over joyed with the prospect of becoming parents, and there may be something wrong that makes it difficult for the mother to carry to term.  Instead of judging the mother and assuming it's her fault, that she is acting careless or she isn't taking care of herself I would be empathetic and have been in the past.  I know too many women who want to have children and want to be mothers and for whatever reason God hasn't made the process necessarily easy for them.  I also wouldn't make the judgement that they are being careless with human life, but instead would assume they eagerly want to have children but don't understand that the body needs to heal so if their problem isn't conceiving then perhaps they should wait a year and give her body time.

    Maybe I take a page from Jesus that it is not us to judge lest we be judged.
  • 1. I don't necessarily think the couple is being "reckless with life" with regard to the babies. The miscarriages are solely in God's hands. Even if the woman is lifting heavy things or whathaveyou, plenty of women do those things before they know they're pregnant and have healthy, full-term babies. However, I do think there's room to be concerned about recklessness with regard to her body, both physically and mentally. A body needs time to heal after a miscarriage. It's also devastating to the mind, which is a wound that takes a lot longer to heal. Getting pregnant again after a miscarriage can help in the mental healing, but if all of the pregnancies are ending in miscarriage, it's got to be taking a toll on her, and probably him as well. My main concern is for their mental health and the health of their marriage. I think it's definitely possible that they are being reckless with those two things. I can't get into the debate about the language of "contraceptive mentality" because it's been a while since I've read the source material. But I think it's absolutely possible to use NFP for reasons that are not grave enough to justify postponing pregnancy. It's one of those grey areas that every couple has to decide for themselves and I don't think it's possible to accurately judge another couple's decision making process because it's nevere possible to fully understand every issue that plays into their thinking. Personally, though I try not to, I get a little judge about couples who get married knowing that they don't want children for several years. Wanting to wait a year or two to build up a strong marital or financial situation I can understand, but for example, I know one couple who are both employed only part time. They are looking for full time work, but both are in small fields with few openings and live in a high cost of living area. They are getting married in the spring, though they have no savings and no means to support themselves, let alone a child. I think it can be reckless to get married in that situation and using NFP because you got married before you were ready to be a family can be unjust.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-moral-questions-to-ponder?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1d7e32c9-94e4-405b-ba0c-645436b1869fPost:0fed9c89-f0a8-4870-a625-e8f4ad430e40">Re: Some moral questions to ponder</a>:
    [QUOTE]1.I can't get into the debate about the language of "contraceptive mentality" because it's been a while since I've read the source material. But I think it's absolutely possible to use NFP for reasons that are not grave enough to justify postponing pregnancy. It's one of those grey areas that every couple has to decide for themselves and <strong>I don't think it's possible to accurately judge another couple's decision making process because it's nevere possible to fully understand every issue that plays into their thinking</strong>. Personally, though I try not to, I get a little judge about couples who get married knowing that they don't want children for several years. Wanting to wait a year or two to build up a strong marital or financial situation I can understand, but for example, I know one couple who are both employed only part time. They are looking for full time work, but both are in small fields with few openings and live in a high cost of living area. They are getting married in the spring, though they have no savings and no means to support themselves, let alone a child. I think it can be reckless to get married in that situation and using NFP because you got married before you were ready to be a family can be unjust.
    Posted by meltoine[/QUOTE]

    I 100% agree with the bolded part!

     

  • I think at some point this hypothetical couple could be veering toward being reckless with life IF they aren't trying to figure out what the cause of the miscarriages is, and try to do everything they can to sustain the pregnancy.  Of course it is ultimately up to God whether the baby will survive or not, but, the parents should be trying their hardest to keep the baby safe.  Many women are able to be very active, lift heavy things, eat a bad diet, etc. during pregnancy and have a healthy baby, but that doesn't mean it's OK for everyone and a woman should leave it solely to God without trying to be as safe as possible for her baby.  If someone is having that many miscarriages, and that frequently, I do think it's reckless not only for the mother's life, but for the health of the next baby, to continue to conceive without trying to figure out the cause, and without trying to do everything possible to protect it from happening again.

    I don't think it's reckless for a couple to marry even if they don't want children for a few years, or don't feel ready.  There's no magic number for how soon a couple must be "ready" to have children after marrying.  Everyone has diferent reasons for wanting to postpone having children, and for some couples, it may be for a few years.  That doesn't mean that they shouldn't have gotten married when they did. 
  • Erin -- I couldn't agree more with everything you say! 

    Just to add on a bit...I appreciate being able to propose a scenario, throw in some hypotheticals, and dissect the morality of a situation.  I think that helps me, and probably others?, to have a well-developed conscience.  You don't want to be lax or scrupulous in your conscience, and so it's important to keep it exercised and stretched:)  HOWEVER....I wouldn't ever be quick to judge a mother who miscarries.  I can't imagine I'd know for certain enough details to determine whether she's being reckless, you know?  Maybe she has seen a doctor, and knows there's a particular reason her body will miscarry.  Maybe she's taking more precautions than I realize.  I think that in real life, you're usually better off giving people the benefit of the doubt. 

     

  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-moral-questions-to-ponder?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:1d7e32c9-94e4-405b-ba0c-645436b1869fPost:f475249b-64b9-46c0-9440-bf84982295a9">Re: Some moral questions to ponder</a>:
    [QUOTE]I think 5 times in a year is quite excessive... I mean... is that even possible?! (I mean, I guess it is, but that must mean that that couple is extremely  fertile!) <strong>What if it were only 3 times a year? Some doctors don't want you to even come to them with infertility issues until  it's either been a year or you've had 3. I don't think 3 in one year is irresponsible at all. (I've never had a miscarriage, but I do know that it's quite common to have early miscarriages, so it can't be like there is something "wrong" with all these people that have one necessarily.)
    </strong>Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

    The only way I could imagine 5 miscarriages is if they were all chemical pregnancies or extremely early.  Different doctors have different "rules" for when you can try to concieve again. Most commonly, I've seen with a chemical pregnancy (under 6 wks pregnant, no physical "proof" of being pregnant) you can try again immediately.  Further along losses in the first trimester, doctors usually suggest waiting one to two cycles to try again.  I

    f you are under 35, you will need to have 3 miscarriages in order to qualify for repeat loss testing (to be covered by insurance).  Over 35, it's 2 miscarriages. Sometimes they will see something during the ultrasound after the loss, that will warrant some of the tessting earlier.   25% (or more) of all pregnancies result in miscarriage.  Many times, there is no physiological or medical reason.  It just happens.  If you have repeated losses, there may be medical reasons which do need to be investigated.   What if that couple did have a medical reason?  Bicornicate uterus is one example.   Instead of one big uterus, there are basically 2 uteri.   Whether or not a pregnancy can be sustained depends on where the embryo implants.   Should a woman with a bicornicate uterus not be allowed the chance to even try to carry full term, just b/c it hasn't worked previously?

     I can't imagine the emotional trauma that having 5 miscarriages would cause.  One is bad enough. And it is the worst experience I have ever gone through in my life.  My miscarriage and the months that followed are the only time in my life where I ever questioned the existence of God.  My doctor at the time, was awesome.  His wife had had 18 pregnancies.  11 were viable.  7 resulted in miscarriages.   No medical reason.  Perfectly healthy, perfectly fine.  

    Think of all the babies born throughout the world into poverty and desolate conditions, who did not recieve proper, prenatal care according to western medicine.  Think of all the babies born even though their moms were on drugs, or were being physically abused, or drank a bottle of vodka a day. Or the people who have no idea they are pregnant til well into their pregnancy.  It's very difficult to "<em>cause</em>" a miscarriage. 

    If you look at the loss boards on the bump, the stories are humbling.   My situation, one miscarriage, is nothing compared to some of the ladies on those boards.   I find it difficult to believe that someone would have repeated losses and continue to try to procreate without seeking medical help to figure out what exactly is "wrong".
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  • lalaith50lalaith50 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Comment Name Dropper
    edited December 2012
    I guess I'm not seeing why the phrase "contraceptive mentality" bothers some people. We're not saying they're using contraceptives, but when you use contraception, there is a mindest; a mentality, "I just don't want kids right now for selfish reasons." (Or possibly good reasons.) I think it is absolutely possible for a couple to use NFP with that same mentality,  "I just don't want kids right now b/c they are inconvenient." Especially when they don't view the fertile time as sacrificial in any way. "It's annoying to not ML for 2 weeks, but it's also annoying to take a pill every day." That could be their attitude.

    ETA: but I would never judge a particular couple and claim I knew what their reasons were. I am sure it happens, but I dont know how any of us would know that.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-moral-questions-to-ponder?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1d7e32c9-94e4-405b-ba0c-645436b1869fPost:609c83b2-08a8-47ec-9e1b-4598522a008a">Re: Some moral questions to ponder</a>:
    [QUOTE]I guess I'm not seeing why the phrase "contraceptive mentality" bothers some people. We're not saying they're using contraceptives, but when you use contraception, there is a mindest; a mentality, "I just don't want kids right now for selfish reasons." (Or possibly good reasons.) I think it is absolutely possible for a couple to use NFP with that same mentality,   "I just don't want kids right now b/c they are inconvenient." Especially when they don't view the fertile time as sacrificial in any way. "It's annoying to not ML for 2 weeks, but it's also annoying to take a pill every day." That could be their attitude. ETA: but I would never judge a particular couple and claim I knew what their reasons were. I am sure it happens, but I dont know how any of us would know that.
    Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

    I have a problem with it because it assumes that those who use contraception have a mentality that is closed to life.  I think there are a lot of people that use contraception with the same mentality as those with NFP... I don't want kids RIGHT NOW for a just reason, but if my contraception failed, then I would lovingly accept children.

    What's really wrong with a person that uses contraception's mentality is that they want to be able to have sex while purposefully acting against conception.  They don't want to sacrifice anything in order to avoid procreation, and they see nothing wrong with separating sex from procreation. THAT is a "contraceptive mentality" and it's impossible for someone using NFP to hold that mentality because they ARE sacrificing, they're NOT having sex while purposefully acting against conception, and they DO see something wrong with separating sex from procreation.

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  • I always pondered the question of if a woman knew through charting that her LP was super short, not long enough to support a pregnancy, would it be moral for a couple TTA to continue having sex during fertile periods since they knew no pregnancy would result?
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  • Good for you.  Love this!!!  AMEN GIRL!!

    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-moral-questions-to-ponder?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:1d7e32c9-94e4-405b-ba0c-645436b1869fPost:a5063d84-9371-4556-a0a2-03056724b254">Re: Some moral questions to ponder</a>:
    [QUOTE]I would try to be as empathetic as possible.  Having seen what women who miscarry go through is heartbreaking.  If the person knows they are pregnant and telling people then I would assume they are over joyed with the prospect of becoming parents, and there may be something wrong that makes it difficult for the mother to carry to term.  Instead of judging the mother and assuming it's her fault, that she is acting careless or she isn't taking care of herself I would be empathetic and have been in the past.  I know too many women who want to have children and want to be mothers and for whatever reason God hasn't made the process necessarily easy for them.  I also wouldn't make the judgement that they are being careless with human life, but instead would assume they eagerly want to have children but don't understand that the body needs to heal so if their problem isn't conceiving then perhaps they should wait a year and give her body time. Maybe I take a page from Jesus that it is not us to judge lest we be judged.
    Posted by libby18bell[/QUOTE]
    God is Faithful!
  • I think when we are speaking in hypotheticals and using this board to bounce around ideas so that we can further our understanding, it is inaccurate to equate these thoughts/ramblings to judging souls.

    Resa is wonderful at posting great "food for thought" ideas. I agree that we should always come from a place of love and compassion - but it is important to think through such tough topics and gain a better understanding of God's will. Through that process we might head off track here and there, but let's have compassion for those of us that need to do so in order to find the answer.

    My two cents:
    - I don't think attempting to procreate naturally is ever sinful... though I think you could make a "reckless" argument regarding the health of the couple (both physical and mental). Couples should always do what they can on their own to improve their health, but a couple that wants to put everything in God's hands isn't doing anything wrong. Think about couples back in biblical times - I don't think they would have much control over these situations.

    - I don't think using NFP to avoid is the same as a "contraceptive mentality", unless barrier methods were being used (which would not be following NFP properly). Simply abstaining during fertile periods is not contraceptive. I do think that couples can be trying to avoid for insignificant/selfish reasons that might not be acceptable to God. That will be something they will have to answer to Him about...
  • (Nobody will probably see this,) but what about a couple who doesn't really *want* to have kids, but at some point they start to "TTW" and are having relations in the fertile period (assume they are aware of and "in agreement" with NFP and are charting,) as far as they can tell, nothing is "wrong" with either of them but they aren't getting pregnant after a year or so, but are they morally obligated at some point to see an NFP doctor and see if there is additional things they should be doing to get pregnant? (eg, taking progesterone, etc.) 
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  • Lalaith -- through some miracle, I saw your post!  To answer your question, my gut reaction is that no, they're not obligated.  However, then I start thinking about it and I can see arguments against my reaction, so IDK.

    IRL, I'd only ever be able to determine the morality of such an action for myself.  That is not to say that "what's wrong for me can be right for you" or some relativist crap like that, but rather to say that there are just too many variables in such a sitaution  to make a determination about another.

    For me, I am concerned that perhaps it's sinful for me not  to take progesterone.  I sometimes have 4 day LP, which would likely cause a miscarriage if I were to conceive.  I'm not TTC, but there is, to me, something unsettling about knowingly foregoing something that could save the life of my baby.  BC and NFP are NEVER 100% effective, and since I could conceive, I feel I am morally obligated to take progesterone.  If I got to heaven and met my unborn babies that I miscarried before even knowing they existed, and knew that I'd done nothing to protect them when I knew that risk existed, I'd feel guilty.  And so I take progesterone.  To me, it's kind of similar to being on the pill, knowing it's abortifacient.  Maybe you have a legit reason to be on the pill, but you need to take any precautions available to limit the abortifacient quality.  Again, I would NEVER try to determine whether another woman is immoral for not taking progeserone or something like that.  I am just explaining why I can see how it can be a moral issue for someone not to take any steps toward avoiding miscarriage. 

     

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