Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...

professorscience

Where does the Bible mention the authority of the church to annul a marriage?  I know that divorce + remarriage = adultery.  I also know that there was a huge split in the church my family attended when I was in high school because one of the elders (a teacher at my school) started doing some research after a former student got divorced and announced that he'd decided that remarrying in certain circumstances was okay.  The preacher was outraged and actually called the congregation to vote on whether or not to remove this elder from his position, and announced that he would be leaving our congregation regardless of the decision.

I grew up in a very strict, Bible-only church, so I know this elder got his info from scripture.  I'm just curious if anyone knows specifics?

Also, yay, let's have some conversation!

erin5286

I'm not sure on this personally, but here's what I found through the magic of Google (from http://www.holierthanthou.info/catholic/annulment.html)

What is the basis for marital annulment? Jesus was pretty clear about marital divorce and the biblical importance of being married. In Matthew 19:3-9, he rejected the Jewish custom of divorce and upheld marriage as a sacred institution: "Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." The only cause for divorce was adultery: "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery" (also Luke 16:18). The Roman Catholic Church maintains, however, that annulment is not divorce, nor does it grant marital divorce. In Romans 7:2-3, Paul refers to the Jewish law that a woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, however, in 1 Corinthians 7:10-16, he makes allowances for believers who are married to unbelievers to let the unbelieving spouse leave if they so desire. To the Catholic Church, marriage consists when valid matrimonial consent is given between two baptized members of the Church. An annulment, or Decree of Nullity (sacramental nullity), is the Church's declaration that a marriage was not legitimate to begin with because the proper elements of a valid, consummated, sacramental marriage were never met -- basically, the marriage is null and void -- not that it never happened, just that proper consent wasn't given and therefore wasn't fully concecrated in the eyes of God (only in the eyes of men). This is due primarily to one or both marital parties not clearly understanding the sacraments of marriage, thus, not fulfilling the sacramental requirements of the marriage from the start.

Again, I'm not saying that I know the above to be perfectly accurate - we all know how unreliable the Internet can be sometimes...

jfellows82

I'm sure others will have better responses, but I think of the annulment process as investigating whether a marriage actually occurred.  So it's not really a matter of needing authority because the church isn't doing or un-doing anything.  If an annulment is granted, it's just a formal recognition that the prior marriage never really existed.  

agapecarrie

The church does not Annul a marriage. An annulment isn't a divorce, so someone who Marries after an annulment does not "marry again". They were never married in the first place. There are things that need to be in place for a marriage to be valid--- the church investigates whether these things were in place or not.

lalaith50

I'm not sure the Bible does mention that. But keep in mind, the difference between an "annulment" and a "Catholic divorce." I'm sure you know this, but the annulment is saying the marriage NEVER HAPPENED. 

Some of the reasons for being able to say "this marriage never occured" could be obvious (so they seem to me,)- Someone was forced into the marriage, or the marriage was never consumated. Then perhaps a slight extension of that - what if someone was intoxicated when they said their vows, then isn't there a chance that those vows weren't valid to begin with? That they didn't really mean that? I'm not canon law expert by any means, but then you can see how some of the other more common reasons for getting annulments might have grounds, like when it is declared the person or couple didn't understand the requirements for a valid marriage or were too emotionally immature/unstable to make that decision.

kszydloski

Thanks for the info - can you give me a reference from the bible that says this? I'm trying to do as much research and learn about this as much as possible.

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_because-im-curious-and-dont-want-to-threadjack?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:73ecddd5-9a30-40b5-bf91-3e6cb7ef5ec2Post:618386f3-0f84-473b-a7fe-27d6bbdad110">Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...</a>:
[QUOTE]The church does not Annul a marriage. An annulment isn't a divorce, so someone who Marries after an annulment does not "marry again". They were never married in the first place. There are things that need to be in place for a marriage to be valid--- the church investigates whether these things were in place or not.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

agapecarrie

The bible doesn't need to say anything about it. You can dress a party up all you want to look like a wedding it doesnt make it a wedding. But there is a reference when Jesus talks about marriage and divorce, and gives the condition "unless it is unlawful".

MrsMack10612

On this topic - can someone explain to me why/how the Catholic church has the authority to annul a non-Catholic marriage?

professorscience

That makes sense.  It's a little hard to wrap my head around the idea of a marriage "never occurring."

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_because-im-curious-and-dont-want-to-threadjack?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:73ecddd5-9a30-40b5-bf91-3e6cb7ef5ec2Post:fbde32a8-a335-44ef-b7f5-a927c4dbd1e5">Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...</a>:
[QUOTE]On this topic - can someone explain to me why/how the Catholic church has the authority to annul a non-Catholic marriage?
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

<div>I guess this falls in with the fact that an annulment is a decree that a marriage did not follow "proper form" and is therefore invalid.  The church recognizes all other denominations' marriages as valid, though.</div>

MrsMack10612

Ok; makes sense, but how can they hold their standard of proper form to another denomination's system (I know that's not the right word, but the right term is eluding me at the moment).

The Catholic Church and other Christian denominations have different rules/requirements etc.  For a silly example - you can't make someone play Monopoly using the rules for Scrabble; they are completely different.

kszydloski

Really? The Bible doesn't need to say anything about it? That's a very interesting comment...

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_because-im-curious-and-dont-want-to-threadjack?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:73ecddd5-9a30-40b5-bf91-3e6cb7ef5ec2Post:57f1663e-c27c-495a-9b99-029534f61d38">Re:Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...</a>:
[QUOTE]The bible doesn't need to say anything about it. You can dress a party up all you want to look like a wedding it doesnt make it a wedding. But there is a reference when Jesus talks about marriage and divorce, and gives the condition "unless it is unlawful".
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

kszydloski

I don't know the answer to this question, however, I'm going to guess it's because they receive "donations" for it...

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_because-im-curious-and-dont-want-to-threadjack?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:73ecddd5-9a30-40b5-bf91-3e6cb7ef5ec2Post:fbde32a8-a335-44ef-b7f5-a927c4dbd1e5">Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...</a>:
[QUOTE]On this topic - can someone explain to me why/how the Catholic church has the authority to annul a non-Catholic marriage?
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

monkeysip

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[QUOTE]Really? The Bible doesn't need to say anything about it? That's a very interesting comment... In Response to Re:Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack... :
Posted by kszydloski[/QUOTE]

Technically, no, the bible doesn't have to say anything about it (I'm not saying it doesn't).

The dogma of the assumption of Mary isn't in scripture either, for example.  Heck, the trinity isn't clearly asserted in scripture (I think all the evidence in scripture points to it, but "trinity" isn't used, neither are phrases like "one God three persons").

Catholic doctrine is not all explicitely in scripture.  Doctrine has developed from scripture, oral Tradition, and the magisterium over time.

caitriona87

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[QUOTE]Ok; makes sense, but how can they hold their standard of proper form to another denomination's system (I know that's not the right word, but the right term is eluding me at the moment). The Catholic Church and other Christian denominations have different rules/requirements etc.  For a silly example - you can't make someone play Monopoly using the rules for Scrabble; they are completely different.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

But what marriage actually IS does not change, and non-Catholics are able to enter into it. You are right that only Catholics are bound by Catholic marriage law--that is, to be married in a Catholic Church before a priest, etc. However, non-Catholics are still capable of validly marrying (even of sacramentally marrying if they are baptized.) Because Protestants (for example) are not bound to marry in a Catholic Church, they can still be validly married by meeting the conditions for marriage, period--full consent of the will, being free to marry, etc. If one of them divorced and converted and/or wanted to marry a Catholic, the Church would then need to discern whether that first marriage was valid or not and therefore whether they are free to marry or not.

agapecarrie

While I don't mind honest questions, please do not insult my church with such comments. It's out of charity that the church investigates marriages, otherwise your fianc would not be free to marry you at all seeing a how he is already married to someone else.

agapecarrie

In Response to Re:Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...:[QUOTE]Really? The Bible doesn't need to say anything about it? That's a very interesting comment...In Response to Re:Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...:The bible doesn't need to say anything about it. You can dress a party up all you want to look like a wedding it doesnt make it a wedding. But there is a reference when Jesus talks about marriage and divorce, and gives the condition "unless it is unlawful".Posted by agapecarrie Posted by kszydloski[/QUOTE]

No the bible doesn't need to say anything about it because there isn't changing or undermining Christ's teachings.

monkeysip

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_because-im-curious-and-dont-want-to-threadjack?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:73ecddd5-9a30-40b5-bf91-3e6cb7ef5ec2Post:84d2ee25-f8c8-4866-b4c2-a863c542bb50">Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...</a>:
[QUOTE]Ok; makes sense, but how can they hold their standard of proper form to another denomination's system (I know that's not the right word, but the right term is eluding me at the moment). The Catholic Church and other Christian denominations have different rules/requirements etc.  For a silly example - you can't make someone play Monopoly using the rules for Scrabble; they are completely different.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

The Catholic church determines if a marriage is valid according to the norms of the other religion (or non-religion if the spouse were atheist). 

The Church doesn't say, "Well, since you weren't married in a Catholic church with a Catholic priest and a vow to be open to life and raise the children Catholic, you're not validly married."  That would be asking people playing monopoly to use the rules for Scrabble, as you say.

The Church considers whether the couple followed proper protocol given their beliefs (did they make some sort of vow?  were the two people of the age of consent? etc.)  And they also consider universal principles of marriage, such as, "did the two people consent to marriage or was one pressured into it?"  and "did the couple intend to make marriage vows for life or was one of the spouses only marrying conditionally?"

These latter principles are important no matter what religion/belief system you come from.  These are not Catholic principles but universal ones.

So, for example, if two atheists, male and female, of legal age, went to the courthouse of their own free will to make a vow of marriage for life, with no conditions that might make the commitment questionable (for example, maybe a drug addiction or something), then the Church would probably assume their marriage to be valid.

Again, the Church doesn't need "authority" in this case because the Church isn't doing anything but formally recognizing whether a marriage ever took place.  The Church isn't doing or undoing anything.

MrsMack10612

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_because-im-curious-and-dont-want-to-threadjack?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:73ecddd5-9a30-40b5-bf91-3e6cb7ef5ec2Post:f3922dbd-9c6a-45ce-b120-4ff3c9206f30">Re:Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...</a>:
[QUOTE]While I don't mind honest questions, please do not insult my church with such comments. It's out of charity that the church investigates marriages, otherwise your fianc would not be free to marry you at all seeing a how he is already married to someone else.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I really hope you're not replying to me.  I said nothing insulting - I was trying to convey my question in a way that I could get my point across.

I am not referring to my pending marriage either.

kszydloski

No, I believe that comment was directed at me! For some reason, I seem to be saying all the wrong things in the forum!

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack... : I really hope you're not replying to me.  I said nothing insulting - I was trying to convey my question in a way that I could get my point across. I am not referring to my pending marriage either.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

MrsMack10612

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_because-im-curious-and-dont-want-to-threadjack?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:73ecddd5-9a30-40b5-bf91-3e6cb7ef5ec2Post:86a20ed2-6103-4f04-8980-f35aca9c5bf4">Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack... : The Catholic church determines if a marriage is valid according to the norms of the other religion (or non-religion if the spouse were atheist).  The Church doesn't say, "Well, since you weren't married in a Catholic church with a Catholic priest and a vow to be open to life and raise the children Catholic, you're not validly married."  That would be asking people playing monopoly to use the rules for Scrabble, as you say. The Church considers whether the couple followed proper protocol given their beliefs (did they make some sort of vow?  were the two people of the age of consent? etc.)  And they also consider universal principles of marriage, such as, "did the two people consent to marriage or was one pressured into it?"  and "did the couple intend to make marriage vows for life or was one of the spouses only marrying conditionally?" These latter principles are important no matter what religion/belief system you come from.  These are not Catholic principles but universal ones. So, for example, if two atheists, male and female, of legal age, went to the courthouse of their own free will to make a vow of marriage for life, with no conditions that might make the commitment questionable (for example, maybe a drug addiction or something), then the Church would probably assume their marriage to be valid. Again, the Church doesn't need "authority" in this case because the Church isn't doing anything but formally recognizing whether a marriage ever took place.  <strong>The Church isn't doing or undoing anything</strong>.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

Thank you Monkey - that explains it very well to me; still not sure I wholly agree that they should be, but I understand the principles behind it better.

The bolded seems contradictory to me.  Isn't an annulment the undoing of the previous marriage by stating it never took place?  Particularly if there are children of said "invalid" marriage.  Doesn't that then make these children "illegitimate"?  Born out of wedlock?

professorscience

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack... : Thank you Monkey - that explains it very well to me; still not sure I wholly agree that they should be, but I understand the principles behind it better. The bolded seems contradictory to me.  Isn't an annulment the undoing of the previous marriage by stating it never took place?  Particularly if there are children of said "invalid" marriage. <strong> Doesn't that then make these children "illegitimate"?  Born out of wedlock?</strong>
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

<div>This is part of why I have a hard time wrapping my head around the whole concept of nullity.  I've been told time and time again that children of marriages deemed null are not "illegitimate," but I totally follow your thinking.  If the marriage "never occurred," then that means those kids were born out of wedlock.</div><div>
</div><div>My head asplode.</div>

agapecarrie

The label of illegitimate is not given to children of annulled marriages because marriages are presumed to be valid unt proven otherwise

MrsMack10612

That doesn't make sense.  If the marriage is annulled, it has been proven invalid at least that's what I'm getting from this discussion.

caitriona87

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_because-im-curious-and-dont-want-to-threadjack?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:73ecddd5-9a30-40b5-bf91-3e6cb7ef5ec2Post:2a3e2f3a-a749-4693-9c0a-c429092b531f">Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack... : This is part of why I have a hard time wrapping my head around the whole concept of nullity.  I've been told time and time again that children of marriages deemed null are not "illegitimate," but I totally follow your thinking.  If the marriage "never occurred," then that means those kids were born out of wedlock. My head asplode.
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]

My understanding is that this is not so because a marriage is (by the Church and everyone else) PRESUMED valid until someone makes a claim that it wasn't. The couple was operating under the assumption that it was a valid marriage becase that's the information they had at the time.

For a hypothetical analogy, say if you went to confession and did your part, confessing your sins in kind and number with sorrow for them, etc. but the priest did something to make it an invalid confession (not sure what this would be and imagine it's quite hard to do, but i'm just making this up for comparison.) Then you go to Communion, only later to find out that whatever the priest didn't say or do properly invalidated the confession. You wouldn't be guilty of sacrilege because you had no idea and no reason to believe that the confession wasn't valid.

professorscience

Also, I guess it's a form of not punishing the children for the "mistakes" of the parents, in a very basic sense.  Their parents were married as far as anyone was concerned when they were born.

MrsMack10612

I guess - but lacks a certain logic to me.

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_because-im-curious-and-dont-want-to-threadjack?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:73ecddd5-9a30-40b5-bf91-3e6cb7ef5ec2Post:9d673d02-87a0-4c81-a6f5-13c3e059d4ea">Re: Because I'm curious and don't want to threadjack...</a>:
[QUOTE]I guess - but lacks a certain logic to me.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]

<div>I guess it's logical in a sense.  I like caitriona's analogy.  When the kids were born, the parents were "married."  The nullification of the marriage only affects the status of the parents.</div>

mica178

Prof, are you an ex-rower?  I love your sig pic!

/end threadjack

BTCarolus

Professor, you (and everybody else here) might be interested in Love, Marriage, and Family:  A Reader by Jaqueline Murray from the series Readings in Medieval Civilizations and Cultures. It's a collection of primary sources that deal with marriage and family during the Middle Ages, and it shows the evolution of the church's understanding of marriage during that time, directly from the writings of people during the time period.

professorscience

BT, THANK YOU!  I will definitely look that one up!

Mica, yes!  I was primarily a cox, which is why I'm the one yelling at the other girls.