Heaviness in my heart

agapecarrie

No where in this thread has there been ANY judgement whatsoever of a person's soul. Never and nowhere. No one said anyone is going to hell.

However, all over scripture we are to judge actions and behavior, to pray for people.

Its so amazing how the "judging" card is thrown and people don't even know what it means.

God HAS judged...he has set forth that these actions are wrong.

DodgersBride

Well said Blue and Kcullen37.

FI and I both catholic. He was raised more involved in the church than I was. I certainly hope when I do get more involve members at his church aren't like any of the women who posted with the exception of the two mention above and SarahP

bel138

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:9d8fc133-b94a-4a6b-844a-53a77316dab6">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Its easy to cast stones when you have not had to deal with the issue personally. Plus, your some of the 'facts' stated are just absurd......
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

You don't really know if any of us aren't dealing with it right now as we speak.

And which facts are you speaking of?

It's also not always true that science should be used to save life. Abortions were brought to us through "science" (ie modern medicine), but it is still not acceptable to have an abortion when a mother's life is threatened.

bel138

I also think you all have missed the part where posters said they were praying for these people, not calling them evil monsters. Because none of us did that.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:ef9cb506-a3bc-4a47-9c7d-be5c0ac975d5">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : I sure hope your three were created in a loving marital embrace and not doggy style :-/  Because evidently that's recreational sex, which is not acceptable. Actually- I don't care how they were conceived because Taryn is adorable and loved and IT DOESN'T MATTER.
Posted by bree4305[/QUOTE]


Where did you get that idea? You don't have an accurate understanding of church teaching.

Also, we are not discussing the value of the children or how loved they are. We are talking about the degrading the power of pro-creation and the killing of human life.

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:c338e9eb-46da-42cf-8d03-39124600647f">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]No where in this thread has there been ANY judgement whatsoever of a person's soul. Never and nowhere. No one said anyone is going to hell. However, all over scripture we are to judge actions and behavior, to pray for people. Its so amazing how the "judging" card is thrown and people don't even know what it means. God HAS judged...he has set forth that these actions are wrong.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Damning someone to hell is not the only way to judge people hun.  And was it not Jesus that said "He without sin cast the first stone"?

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:4f937a5b-3559-449c-8763-6d4c89b70c2b">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Seventeen? Is that typical? And lisa, while I know it can seem unfair for women (and men) who are unable to have children, I really believe it is for a reason. I truly believe it is because God is calling you to take care of children in a different manner, such as adoption. <u><strong>Sadly, these children who are created through artificial means have much higher disease and genetic defect rates.
</strong></u>Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

These facts.

tidetravel

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:394ce2c7-f35c-409d-9075-d5e740cc86a2">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : You don't really know if any of us aren't dealing with it right now as we speak. <strong>And which facts are you speaking of?</strong> It's also not always true that science should be used to save life. Abortions were brought to us through "science" (ie modern medicine), but it is still not acceptable to have an abortion when a mother's life is threatened.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

. Sadly, these children who are created through artificial means have much<font color="#ff0000"><strong> higher disease and genetic defect rates.

</strong></font>

JenGin74

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:6b6113ac-fade-4a14-b54a-aa77c848b5d4">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : These facts.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]


Ditto this. I'd like to see some published medical facts from more than one source

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:394ce2c7-f35c-409d-9075-d5e740cc86a2">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : You don't really know if any of us aren't dealing with it right now as we speak. And which facts are you speaking of? It's also not always true that science should be used to save life. <strong><u>Abortions were brought to us through "science" (ie modern medicine), but it is still not acceptable to have an abortion when a mother's life is threatened.
</u></strong>Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

No, you call it "early delivery", science calls it a late term abortion.  Semantics really. 

mehgank

*headdesk*

FFS, just by generating a thread about these people, is that not spreading judgment? You could have just judged them in your mind and prayed for them and let that be the end of it, but no, you had to spread it around because it's just oh-so-juicy.

I'm in the same situation as Blue (I'm not Catholic but FI is, and we're having a Catholic ceremony), and these extremist beliefs are frightening to me.

How is conceiving a child with your husband through IVF (a science) any different than the doctors in the hospital keeping your grandmother on life support until she can get a heart transplant? Is that not playing God? If her heart was meant to fail, shouldn't that be it for her?

Science is science honey.

tidetravel

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:22647359-6960-416b-a9a4-534a4016169a">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Out of curiosity, how does this work? 
Posted by bree4305[/QUOTE]

Bree - actively breastfeeding delays ovulation.  Think about it as if you were a meerkat.  You have a baby / babies that are still drinking milk.  Your body says, "hey, no more babies right now.  We still have young ones to feed."

bel138

Just go to PubMed, the government's medical research database, and search "IVG Birth Defects." Heck, google the same term. It has been consisently shown that this statement is true, especially for congenital heart anamolies.

LauraT25

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:b1b3d179-16eb-4ab9-8f15-3c6588ca5916">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]I also think you all have missed the part where posters said they were praying for these people, not calling them evil monsters. Because none of us did that.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

A lot of people said they are praying, but this: "To tear babies from sex like this is a disgusting diabolical travesty that KILLS and causes spiritual damage." is pretty harsh.  Not exactly calling people who use IVF 'evil monsters', but it's not really, "Oh I will pray for her misguided soul", either.

bel138

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:647bc565-14fb-48ae-97ff-c467e4aaeeb7">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Talk about not having your facts straight!  My niece & nephew have no genetic abnormalties, nor are they diseased.  That's the most ignorant statement I have read.  They were conceived from my SIL's eggs and brothers sperm.  Just b/c they weren't conceived inside her womb, doesn't mean they're gonna sprout an extra head or get cancer.
Posted by jcbsjr[/QUOTE]

Just because one case proves your point, doesn't mean your point is valid. I don't think you understand the concept of large scale scientific studies.

And also, NO an "early delivery" is not allowed either to whoever posted that. It is still considered an abortion, still considered murder.

catarntina

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:22647359-6960-416b-a9a4-534a4016169a">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Out of curiosity, how does this work? 
Posted by bree4305[/QUOTE]

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactational_amenorrhea_method" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactational_amenorrhea_method</a>

I think it may also be called ecological breastfeeding.

mehgank

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:fa2b4e96-ca5e-4cb1-accf-f8a772b48cb8">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : A lot of people said they are praying, but this: "To tear babies from sex like this is a disgusting diabolical travesty that KILLS and causes spiritual damage." is pretty harsh.  Not exactly calling people who use IVF 'evil monsters', but it's not really, "Oh I will pray for her misguided soul", either.
Posted by LauraT25[/QUOTE]

I agree. Sounds more like spreading the hate to me.

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:a3c7c2e7-96b6-4b25-a4c6-44cb145df313">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Just go to PubMed, the government's medical research database, and search "IVG Birth Defects." Heck, google the same term. It has been consisently shown that this statement is true, especially for congenital heart anamolies.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

Do you really think that is true or is it more likely that the majority of women who turn to IVF are older (since they have been trying for so long) and if problems arise, it might just be problems that arise with any woman of a certain age who was to have a child?

Kids born via IVF also perform better academically, but we all seem to forget that.  The reason they do is because the parents are usually older and able to focus on their childrens education.

agapecarrie

Actually, its not harsh.
It does kill.... 17 embryos. Most will die. That is killing.
Spiritual damage: against God's plan and will.
It's the truth.



We can all stop with the "honeys" and the "hun"s. I'm not patronizing, so please stop it.

The Church's teachings that sex and babies belong together (contraception is having sex without babies. IVF is having babies without sex). The tearing apart of these 2 is harmful, objectifies humans to be viewed as a commodity and degrading to human life in general.

tidetravel

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:a3c7c2e7-96b6-4b25-a4c6-44cb145df313">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Just go to PubMed, the government's medical research database, and search "IVG Birth Defects." Heck, google the same term. It has been consisently shown that this statement is true, especially for congenital heart anamolies.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]
While they may quote a "30% higher" probability of birth defects in IVF babies, the actuality is that the number of IVF babies actually born with birth defects is less than 1% higher than those conceived naturally.

agapecarrie

When I started this thread, I did not identify who are where the post was from. Its not "spreading hate".

I started it in hopes of more prayer for this issue, those poor babies that will never have life, perhaps someone can spiritually adopt one and name one, because right now they don't have names.

bel138

Oh, look, you read the FIRST result. Try a few more. Like these:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20207067
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20498466
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20063307

I'm not making this up. Even though the results can be debated to what exent this phenomenon occurs or which organ systems are most affected, there are many studies supporting my statement.

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:a8c3bb58-8a99-4fac-af55-b021ac765120">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Just because one case proves your point, doesn't mean your point is valid. I don't think you understand the concept of large scale scientific studies. <strong><u>And also, NO an "early delivery" is not allowed either to whoever posted that. It is still considered an abortion, still considered murder.
</u></strong>Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

Thats funny cause I am looking at my pamphlet from the catholic church that i got from pre-cana and thats EXACTLY what is says.

Take ectopic pregnancys.  If they do not remove the fallopian tube, the mother will die,   So they do it.

The catholic church does NOT condemn any secondary procedure that results in the indirect loss of the unborn child.  So delivering the child early, or removing the tube is NOT consider an abortion.

Get your facts straight.

bel138

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:0b27502d-c09e-45bc-b42f-65eb244ffc33">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Do you really think that is true or is it more likely that the majority of women who turn to IVF are older (since they have been trying for so long) and if problems arise, it might just be problems that arise with any woman of a certain age who was to have a child?
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

Those confounding variables have been accounted for in some of the studies. You can't just pick and choose which singular one you want to look at.

mehgank

You don't KNOW if they killed those embryos, though. Since the OP didn't post the link to the thread that she was referring to, you're basing your judgment off of whatever the OP posted.

How is them discarding the embryos that didn't conceive any different than an unsuccessful conception causing a miscarriage inside the mother's womb? The mother's body would evcuate the dead embryo anyway.

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:d20aa3ab-dec2-4ee6-8ec8-79cab50fe8b5">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Those confounding variables have been accounted for in some of the studies. <strong><u>You can't just pick and choose which singular one you want to look at.
</u></strong>Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

But you can?

JenGin74

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:df7361f4-9843-4e31-b02b-dd1396aafe9d">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Oh, look, you read the FIRST result. Try a few more. Like these: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20207067" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20207067</a> <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20498466" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20498466</a> <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20063307" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20063307</a> I'm not making this up. Even though the results can be debated to what exent this phenomenon occurs or which organ systems are most affected, there are many studies supporting my statement.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

Shiit! So now what you're saying is I'm going to have a defective fake baby? Why don't you have one and give it to me. That way I'll be square with god and you can say you did something good for a fellow human. Deal?

bel138

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:62b88986-53a8-408d-a95c-b852082ae45b">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]CONCLUSION(S): In vitro fertilization-conceived young adults did not exhibit pubertal abnormalities. Female gender and age at puberty onset independently predicted body mass index of IVF offspring in young adulthood. And many studies that do NOT.
Posted by jcbsjr[/QUOTE]

Right. So you can't just come in here and say that I've MADE IT UP. You asked for my support of my FACTS, and I've provided several supporting documents. We could debate any number of things this way, such as the risk of breast cancer in certain populations. Point is, there is SUPPORTING EVIDENCE. I didn't just pull the statement out of thin air.

eshaufle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:a3c7c2e7-96b6-4b25-a4c6-44cb145df313">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Just go to PubMed, the government's medical research database, and search "IVG Birth Defects." Heck, google the same term. It has been consisently shown that this statement is true, especially for congenital heart anamolies.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

There are a lot of things though that can cause unfavorable results during pregnancy and birth that are all risks people take when having a baby.  It does not begin and end with IVF.  Some of them are due to things that we can control (i.e. whether to use drugs during birth, vitamins, what we eat, IVF) and some of them are simply risks that are inherent in the fact that most people do not live in a bubble immune from all outside influences.

Consistently shown that something is an effect does not necessarily mean that it consistently occurs.  Higher risk of something?  Possibly.  Consistently will happen with every case?  Doubtful. 

But as with anything, people take risks everyday.  They decide if it's worth the risk and then decide.  It doesn't make it wrong if you decide to take a route with risks.  It just means you weighed the pros and cons and made the best decision given your circumstances and beliefs. 

mehgank

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:df7361f4-9843-4e31-b02b-dd1396aafe9d">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]Oh, look, you read the FIRST result. Try a few more. Like these: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20207067" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20207067</a> <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20498466" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20498466</a> <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20063307" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20063307</a> I'm not making this up. Even though the results can be debated to what exent this phenomenon occurs or which organ systems are most affected, there are many studies supporting my statement.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

Isn't that God's will, though? That person would have those developmental disabilities because God wanted them to be that way. Same with people born with Downs Syndrome since their mothers got pregnant after age 30, or any other horrible genetic disorder such as Brittle Bone Disease or dwarfism.