Heaviness in my heart

Hope61

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:d93f9442-0a50-4ed7-a4db-eecdc1a33b2c">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : This isn't at all arrogant, is it?  How do you know the reason God doesn't stop it?  Unless you have a direct line to Him, you really shouldn't speak on His behalf like this.
Posted by tldh[/QUOTE]


I'm sorry. I was just trying to avoid being accused of "God didn't create them?? So they're not children of God?? Why are the children being punished??"

And, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Stop what--the IVF pregnancy that occurs (which is what I was referring to)? Or the embryos that die? I never said anything about a reason, and I don't think I was overstepping our knowledge of God by saying he allowed the pregnancy--since God is all-powerful and nothing happens that is outside of His control (and this is a Catholic belief, not my own personal opinion). And so I don't believe I was trying to speak on His behalf.

GulfCoaster

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:264ceda9-2ceb-451e-ac1f-60b4e267d4f3">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]I think the point of difference is that the couple is trying to CREATE  human being not destroy it. What's so hard about that difference? The couple has not already created something and then is willing to kill it. The couple cannot create a baby and therefore they are trying other ways. The embryos are not implanted because they usually DIE or are going to die therefore making implantation kind of pointless, don't you think? Posted by Manwaithiel[/QUOTE]

They've created 17 human beings, and a large number of those human beings are going to die.  If you believe that human life begins at conception (and this is the Catholic board, so a large number of posters here do believe that), then that's worth feeling sad about, I think.

As several posters have said, the Catholic Church doesn't oppose all fertility treatments.  (The Pope Paul VI Institute in Omaha, for example, has some of the best gynecologic surgeons in the country who perform various procedures that can in many cases restore women's fertility, and Creighton-trained doctors can often figure out the cause of a woman's inability to conceive by examining the charts she keeps of her cycles.)  Generally, treatments that work to restore the body to how it ought to function, and work to achieve conception within the context of marital sex, are OK -- e.g. Metformin, Clomid, and similar drugs that can prompt a woman to ovulate.  But treatments such as IVF that separate conception from sex are not approved by the Church. 

I struggle with infertility, something I knew since before I even got married 4 years ago.  I know for certain that at least one other poster on this thread does too, and I believe another poster on this thread does as well.  Some of us on this thread do know the pain of infertility.  But we also believe deeply in the sanctity of human life, and despite our pain, we are not willing to compromise that belief. 

There's a lot of pain and namecalling in this thread all around.  I'd love to have a serious, level-headed debate about what fertility treatments are morally acceptable or unacceptable, but I really doubt that's ever going to happen on TK.

tldh

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:975e3602-c9d1-4737-93a7-f039fffad1cd">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : I'm sorry. I was just trying to avoid being accused of "God didn't create them?? So they're not children of God?? Why are the children being punished??" And, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Stop what--the IVF pregnancy that occurs (which is what I was referring to)? Or the embryos that die? I never said anything about a reason, and I don't think I was overstepping our knowledge of God by saying he allowed the pregnancy--since God is all-powerful and nothing happens that is outside of His control (and this is a Catholic belief, not my own personal opinion). And so I don't believe I was trying to speak on His behalf.
Posted by KatieAnne18[/QUOTE]


Sorry.  I read the double "the" as God allows this so that the children will still be children of God.

Hope61

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:51234217-079c-44ea-9e23-db3c70b58b93">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Sorry.  I read the double "the" as God allows this so that the children will still be children of God.
Posted by tldh[/QUOTE]
Ah, ok. No harm done :) I probably should have had a comma and/or a "therefore" or something in there.

Manwaithiel

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:e944e52d-04ec-44cf-9911-bb9b21778f1c">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Yes. So the problem here is that the couple/scientist created these embryos (as opposed to the couple/God, although, before I get jumped on for this, God allows it so the the children are still children of God) and that most if not all of these embryos WILL die. This is vastly different from x% of natural pregnancies result in miscarriage. If I ever get pregnant naturally, it will be by God's design and if the baby dies in utero, it will also be by God's design. um... no one suggested that. Yes, I know this brings up heated/emotional responses. That doesn't give people a right to go around calling ALL of us judgmental, writing sarcastic responses, bashing our Church, calling us a "rat pack". I think we have been dealing with these. Yes, with some over-emotional and rude responses on both sides, but with a lot of calm and well-thought-out responses as well.
Posted by KatieAnne18[/QUOTE]

Yup. And I don't believe I called you or anyone else here any of those things or any names in general. Don't take it out on me that other people on this thread are being nasty. I had a legitimate emotion and response to this situation. And unless you're me you don't get to dictate how something should or should not effect me. Here's where I actually call you something: It's pretty freaking arrogant of you to tell me how I should respond to such a sensitive thing when you know absolutely nothing about me.

Hope61

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:03eb7dcd-eecd-4446-bdc2-d7dca7cf426c">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Yup. And I don't believe I called you or anyone else here any of those things or any names in general. Don't take it out on me that other people on this thread are being nasty. I had a legitimate emotion and response to this situation. And unless you're me you don't get to dictate how something should or should not effect me. Here's where I actually call you something: It's pretty freaking arrogant of you to tell me how I should respond to such a sensitive thing when you know absolutely nothing about me.
Posted by Manwaithiel[/QUOTE]

I did respond to the content of your post, trying to keep the focus on the morality of IVF. I don't believe that I blamed you for anything, and I <strong>never </strong>said that you called anyone names; I said that people on both sides have handled this badly, and people on both sides have handled it well. I never said how you should respond. I'm not sure where you're getting that? Goodness, in the post you quoted I never even said anything about couples (in general, since you're right, I don't know anything about you or whether/how personal this is for you) being wrong in using IVF. Please, I'm only trying to defend my beliefs and my fellow believers here. Its one thing to have an emotional reaction about something; its another to take a post about people in general calling names and decide its a personal attack on you and turn around and attack me for it...

[Deleted User]

My thoughts on this thread: I  have sat back and said very little through out this discussion, which I think for me has been a wise choice. I feel very sad that people have not taken the time to really read people post and instead picked out words, phrases and or single lines to make their point. This to me is why there is so little understanding in this world. People choose to find the one word that fits what they want to point out and poof they fire off a statement and do not think about what they are writing.

I think that is sad, to demoralize people, their beliefs and or who they are.

 

The teaching of the Church on IVF from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm#I

 2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.⁷¹Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.⁷²My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.⁷³2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.⁷⁴God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.⁷⁵2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"⁷⁶ "by the very commission of the offense,"⁷⁷ and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.⁷⁸ The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society. 2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation: "The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."⁷⁹"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."⁸⁰ 2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being. Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."⁸¹ 2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."⁸²"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."⁸³"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"⁸⁴ which are unique and unrepeatable.

If you choose to believe this or not that is your own choice. Your relationship to God is between you and him. I however have a duty to myself and my family to follow the teachings of the Church. Am I perfect, no far from it.

 

As for dealing with infertility, I was told at the age of twenty-one that I would never be able to have children because I had cervical cancer and that it would be impossible for me to have children! So at the age of twenty eight when I found out that I was pregnant I was thrilled.  I am sad that there are some that may never get to experience what I did, and I know that maybe my daughter may be the only child that I am able to conceive. However, I digress.

 

So, in closing I want to inform. Agree, disagree or not. For me, I choose to follow the churches teachings. Call it what you will but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. You can choose what you will that is not for me to judge, decide or force feed you. Take it as face value.

In Christ,

M

Hope61

A general comment... I am sorry if I am coming off as arrogant to anyone (although a misunderstanding/typo issue was already cleared up). It is hard to know how something sounds in a person's head when I type it here, and hard for you to know how I mean it. I think that it is theoretically possible to have a rational discussion about these issues if people (myself included!!) could be more open to others' explanations and questions without getting heated up about it and jumping on every last phrase. However, I don't know if we'll be getting to that point on a public online forum... What I do know is, I've been on and off here all evening, and its definitely time for bed! Good night, ladies! And again, my apologies for offending anyone. I am really trying to word my posts so that they will be best understood, but that can be quite a hard task when its only me reading my own draft

mica178

Hi everyone,

I took a break from the heated debate and reflected on the last days' conversations.

In psychology there's a term called "confirmation bias."  Confirmation bias was in full swing on both sides of the debate.

It's really tough to debate an emotional topic like this because our brains automatically look for evidence that supports our pre-held beliefs and disregard anything that contradicts them.  That does not mean that we shouldn't try to debate.  It just means that from time to time, we should step back from the debate and reflect and reread.

I will stand by everything that I said.  I do actually make a point of questioning everything I am taught, including from the church, so I'm not just spouting off what I heard from a sermon or from a televangelist.  As I've mentioned before, I have not always been a practicing Catholic because I used to blindly accept whatever doctrine was taught to me by my liberal anti-religion professors in school.  When I actually challenged a lot of their lessons, I found that they often fell short of truth.  And when I looked into my heart and questioned my beliefs further, I found that I could not ethically support IVF or abortion.  Yes, I feel sympathy for people who feel the desperation that drives them to either of those procedures, but I do not condone or promote their actions.  I'm not, however, judging them.  There's a difference.

And I've said it before in other threads.  One of the unique gifts that God gave us is free will.  We can do whatever we want, whether it goes against his teachings and hopes for us.  We can then repent or feel indifferent to our crimes or misdeeds.  That's free will.  But just because God loves us does not give us free reign to do whatever we want because it's there.  There was that one tree in the garden of Eden.  Just because it had ripe fruit does not mean that Adam and Eve should have eaten from it.  But God allowed that action because he gave them free will.  There were consequences to humanity as a result.

Question the church's teachings. I think that we shouldn't accept what others tell us blindly.  We're supposed to search for the truth -- it says so in the Bible.  I'd love to have a respectful and objective debate with anyone about IVF or anything else controversial.  If you can present me with data that proves me wrong, I welcome it.  But so far, what I've found is a lot of vitriol and poor understanding of the church.

Calypso1977

wow, i missed this entire thread as i was traveling all day yesterday, coast to coast.

this will be my one and only post on this thread.

all i will say is that i am constantly amazed by how special interest groups, minorities, gays, etc. all preach tolerance and acceptance yet never seem to want to tolerate those who may hold other beliefs, usually beliefs pertaining to God, christianity or the Catholic faith.

i am against IVF and abortion in any situation because i'm catholic and i try to follow the teachings as best i can.  some in our world believe in both of those procedures based on their faith or their value system. 

i too know catholics who are pro-abortion and pro-ivf.  doesnt make them acceptabble according to church teaching.  heck, a majority of catholics could believe in these two procedures.  again, still isnt acceptable according to church teaching.  they are only acceptable in secular society. 

people as of late seem to love to get on agape because there seems to be some speculation as to whether she's married or engaged (and if she's neither that she "doesnt belong here").  anyone  can post here, and while you may fnd it odd to do so if you arent in wedding mode, there's nothing wrong with someone posting here and i dont see why anyone would make a big deal abotu someone doing so other than they may not agree with the person.

some folks (myself included) find the N word offensive.  if someone used that here, they'd probably be banned.  why is it that if one of us finds "jesus freak" offensive that we'd be mocked?  that said, i still personally would never report someone for using that term, because i believe in free speech, even if it may be offensive.

also, many people find out the sex of their baby ahead of time, and name that child long before its born.  not sure how that differs from naming an embryo, who would become a child someday if given the chance.  not sure why someone would think its "BSC" to name and pray for an unborn embryo.

clearheavens

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:6e2f9fb4-67b4-46c2-bd20-fd263d80f593">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]question: I checked your bio and you have no wedding date and no name of FI or husband.  You are not a mom or even a mother in law invloled in wedding planning.  Not a bridal party member or even a groom. <strong>Your purpose on this board is ____?</strong>
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

<div>agapecarrie is a great asset to this board.  She is very knowledgeable and obedient to the Church teachings and helped answer many of our questions, especially regarding the Sacrament of Matrimony.  I love having her with us.</div>

Jay&Marissa

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:8a512b48-06d5-4a1a-a0eb-5c813e3fa44f">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : agapecarrie is a great asset to this board.  She is very knowledgeable and obedient to the Church teachings and helped answer many of our questions, especially regarding the Sacrament of Matrimony.  I love having her with us.
Posted by clearheavens[/QUOTE]

Ditto above. And what a weird thing for a MOB who has been hanging out for a few years to point out.

clearheavens

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:3a3e95b6-f2c5-4714-8e33-071e96e448d0">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Ditto above. And what a weird thing for a MOB who has been hanging out for a few years to point out.
Posted by Jay&Marissa[/QUOTE]
<div>
</div><div>Yeah.  And also, agapecarrie answers more than just the logistics of the wedding day, she helps answer questions that care for the marriage and helps us to better love Christ and love our spouse.  Those who have gotten to know her on this board know that she is a counselor, teacher, expert on NFP, wife, mother, and so on.</div>