Ceremony Music...

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:92c205b3-5ca2-4ad7-88a2-017108c03f38">Re:Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music... : Their bureaucracy will make them irrelevant.  Trust me.  At this time in my life I am looking very deeply into Catholic teaching.  If I have a daughter, do I want her raised in a faith that treats her as second class because of bureaucratic rules within its system which contradicts actual Catholic philosophy surrounding the Blessed Mother?
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]

<div>Actually, the reason women can't be priests is upholding their dignity, ABOVE men, not below.  (This is a very loose understanding of "above" simply to make a point, meaning, the women are the crown of creation)</div><div>
</div><div>It does not in any way contradict anything surrounding the blessed Mother. Mary, of all people would have become a priest should it happen. She did not, instead she retained the dignity of the female, the Woman, as the model of the church as bride. It's such a beautiful place to be, and to become a priest would be lowering of dignity, not raising. This is not in any way , 2nd class. This is first class, with fully reclining seats. </div><div>
</div><div>JPII was not working towards "ordaining women". He did make a statement that its not in the authority of the church to do so. </div>

HandBanana

In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:In Response to Re:Ceremony Music... : Their bureaucracy will make them irrelevant.nbsp; Trust me.nbsp; At this time in my life I am looking very deeply into Catholic teaching.nbsp; If I have a daughter, do I want her raised in a faith that treats her as second class because of bureaucratic rules within its system which contradicts actual Catholic philosophy surrounding the Blessed Mother?Posted by HandBananaActually, the reason women can't be priests is upholding their dignity, ABOVE men, not below.nbsp;It does not in any way contradict anything surrounding the blessed Mother. Mary, of all people would have become a priest should it happen. She did not, instead she retained the dignity of the female, the Woman, as the model of the church as bride. It's such a beautiful place to be, and to become a priest would be lowering of dignity, not raising. This is not in any way , 2nd class. This is first class, with fully reclining seats.nbsp;JPII was not working towards "ordaining women". He did make a statement that its not in the authority of the church to do so.nbsp; Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Male priest rapes children. Cover it up and move HIM to another parish. Nuns teach feminism and BC. Investigate and punish publicly. That is what I mean by second class.

lalaith50

Are you serious? 

http://www.richardsipe.com/Doyle/2009/sexual_abuse_by_nuns.htm

ETA: this is not a MALE priest problem... it's a fallen-human-race problem...

Further ETA: I'm not condoning the attitude in that above article, haha... but the source might be acceptable to those of you who don't like "traditional" Catholic sources, like this one - http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/06/lcwrs-long-standing-coverup-of-sexual-abuse-of-children-by-nuns/

Riss91

I think the media plays a big part in how we perceive the Church's handling of offenses. Those sisters weren't hiding in the shadows.... they wanted attention, that forces as response from the Church. I would agree that the Church should handling some things better, but I feel like the media is not fair at all. Shocker, I know!

professorscience

I always find it very strange that people view the church's stance on women priests as treating them like "second-class citizens."  I find this attitude that in order to be completely equal to men, we have to be able and allowed to do exactly everything that men do completely flawed.  We are equal to men, but we are not the same as men.  I'm certainly not saying that we have to fit into these identical molds in order to be women of God, but I think we have to understand that God had a plan for us.

I don't think the church needs to "evolve" to fit in with societal norms.  The message of the church has always been the same -- "Love/obey God, do good things, be good people" (in a nutshell).  I feel like people who ask the church to bend to their will are also asking God to do the same.  I'm not saying things don't need to change, I'm just saying it needs to be less about what WE want and more about what HE wants.

Also, the words you read on the Internet are just words.  There's no tone assigned except the one you give them.  I think we'd all get along better if we just tried to remember that.

ElisabethJoanne

lalaith, thank you. I've never understood Pachebel over Wagner on any clear, rational level. They're both pieces not originally meant for church. And if we bring in the composer's politics, we exclude everything written by Protestants, or for Protestants. That's Bach, Haydn, most hymns...

I know hymnals carry an imprimatur. Certainly a Bishop could approve a certain hymnal or other collection of religious music for use in his Diocese. That wouldn't get us any strictly instrumental music, though.

monkeysip

Professor, I think you said it best.  Being equal to men does not mean that we do all the same things as them.  And vice versa.

Men will NEVER have the gift of creating and bearing life from their wombs.  That is a female privilege.

I also just wanted to point out that JPII actually sealed the deal against female ordination.  He was not working towards it at all.

In his Apostolic Letter, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, he says this:

"Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."

There's no ambiguity there.  It can't happen.  The Bishops of the Catholic Church only have the authority to do what Christ did.  Christ never made a single woman an apostle (ordination).  And you can't say it was because of sexism at the time.  Christ was a constant sign of contradiction against the culture of the time.  He ate with prostitutes and tax collectors.  He had many female disciples (disciple =/=apostle).  If the Son of God had wanted to make women apostles, he would have done it.  He had no fear.  But he didn't because he had a different plan for women as mothers of the church (all men are fathers--whether religious, married, or single lay men).  But he did not lay his hands on and give the apostolic powers of the Holy Spirit to women, only men. 

Eliz77

Well, there are a few Wagner songs on my suggestion list. I stopped by the rectory today to drop off some papers and ran into the Priest. He said the Wedding March (by Mendelssohn) is used and allowed. He also mentioned I could request other music not on the list and the music director can let me know if acceptable or not. 

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:6bd47cfe-2870-41a5-8e99-d244464919b1">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ceremony Music... :   BRONX Our Lady of Mount Carmel Church  Location:  627 East 187th Street – Bronx, NY 10458 Mass Time: Sun 8:30 am Web site:  <a href="http://www.ourladymtcarmelbx.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.ourladymtcarmelbx.org</a> St Anthony Church Location:  1496 Commonwealth Ave – Bronx, NY 10460 Mass Time: 3rd Sat 5 pm Phone number:  (718) 931-4040 Priest: Fr Joseph Kelly St. Margaret of Cortona Location: 6000 Riverdale Avenue (between West 260th and 261st streets), Bronx, NY 10471 Mass Time: Sunday of the month at 3 p.m Phone number: 718-549–8053 Celebrant: Father James Miara (of Our Lady of Mount Carmel parish) BROOKLYN Church of Our Lady of Peace  Location:  522 Carroll Street – Brooklyn, NY 11215 Mass Time: Sun 9:30 am Phone number:  (914) 939-1497 Priest: Fr Mario Portella NEW YORK CITY The Church of Holy Innocents Location:  128 West 37th Street (between Broadway & 7th Avenue), New York City, NY 10018 Mass Time: Saturdays at 1:00 p.m. and on Holy Days of Obligation that fall on Monday-Friday at 6:15 p.m.  Phone number:  (212) 279-5861 Web site:  <a href="http://www.innocents.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.innocents.com</a> Priest: Fr McBride St Agnes Church  Location:  143 East 43rd Street – New York City, NY 10017 Mass Time: Sun 11am Phone number:  (212) 682-5722 Web site:  <a href="http://parishesonline.com/scripts/HostedSites/Org.asp?ID=10089" rel="nofollow">http://parishesonline.com/scripts/HostedSites/Org.asp?ID=10089</a> Priest: Fr McBride Our Lady of Mount Carmel Church  Location  448 East 116th Street – NEW YORK CITY, NY 10029 Mass Time: Sun 10 am Phone number:  (212) 534-0681 Priest: Fr Tony Kelly SAC St. Christopher Mission Chapel  Location:  Soldiers' Club, 283 Lexington Ave – New York, NY 10016 Mass Time: Sun 1:30 pm Phone number:  (212) 420-7269 Priest: SSPX – Fr Zendejas



Thanks Riss!  The Bronx, Harlem and Brooklyn are out of the question but I might stop by the church on Lexinton sometime when I am able to walk better.

Also, Riss, I know you have told agape to tone it down and skip the ego trip but I can't see that it's working.  Be a nice mod and try again.  You too professor!
Later ladies

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:d94f0f8b-cf65-49b9-a85d-7ab9228cd4ed">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]Well, there are a few Wagner songs on my suggestion list. I stopped by the rectory today to drop off some papers and ran into the Priest. He said the Wedding March (by Mendelssohn) is used and allowed. He also mentioned I could request other music not on the list and the music director can let me know if acceptable or not. 
Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]

<div>Hahaha, I'll bet you had no idea your thread would blow up like this!</div><div>
</div><div>I'm glad you got it worked out.  I also had to make a "special" request for music, but it was a recessional I'd heard at another church and wanted to use in my own.  The music director special ordered it!</div><div>
</div><div>ETA: OOT, ygpm.</div>

lalaith50

[QUOTE] Also, Riss, I know you have told agape to tone it down and skip the ego trip but I can't see that it's working.  Be a nice mod and try again.  You too professor! Later ladies
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]
You've been told to tone it down, too...<div>(and as your own personal vendetta is showing, it doesn't seem to be working...)</div>

Riss91

OOT - I do my job pretty well thank you very much. I have asked both of you multiple times to alter your tone and your responses. So, please be a good knottie and refrain from nasty comments! And agape will do her part to speak more kindly. It's pathetic how this is still going on. 

HandBanana

I believe in social justice which is why I am Catholic. Right now I FEEL that the Catholic church is much more concerned about abortion, BC, and Obamacare than social justice and the true roots of our faith. I am very jaded and upset. I understand that women are different from men but that is not the original reasoning behind women not being ordained. If they can change their argument about why, why can they not allow women to be ordained. http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/unclean.asp

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:eb3ab9b7-6c9e-4cf4-886f-590799c08075">Re:Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]I believe in social justice which is why I am Catholic. <strong>Right now I FEEL that the Catholic church is much more concerned about abortion, BC, and Obamacare than social justice </strong>and the true roots of our faith. I am very jaded and upset. I understand that women are different from men but that is not the original reasoning behind women not being ordained. If they can change their argument about why, why can they not allow women to be ordained. <a href="http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/unclean.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/unclean.asp</a>
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]

<div>I don't think the church has wavered on social justice issues, but the healthcare issues have been sort of thrust into the spotlight.  That's the nature of the media today.  The church very rarely gets any coverage of all the good that it's members do.</div>

newlyseliski

And thus ends the record-length streak of flame-war-free CW forum... * sigh *

HandBanana

In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:I believe in social justice which is why I am Catholic. Right now I FEEL that the Catholic church is much more concerned about abortion, BC, and Obamacare than social justice and the true roots of our faith. I am very jaded and upset. I understand that women are different from men but that is not the original reasoning behind women not being ordained. If they can change their argument about why, why can they not allow women to be ordained. <a href="http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/unclean.aspPosted" rel="nofollow">http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/unclean.aspPosted</a> by HandBananaI don't think the church has wavered on social justice issues, but the healthcare issues have been sort of thrust into the spotlight. nbsp;That's the nature of the media today. nbsp;The church very rarely gets any coverage of all the good that it's members do. Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]
I agree that there is a stronger focus on bad but that goes for the media in general. I do not believe Catholics are being persecuted which is what I have heard some priests say and sone Catholics.

HandBanana

In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:[QUOTE]And thus ends the recordlength streak of flamewarfree CW forum... sigh Posted by newlyseliski[/QUOTE]

Are you talking about agape and oot? That was nothing. I love this forum because it full of well versed educated Catholic women who usually can have long discussions and disagree without personal attacks.

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:ddccdc9f-d94f-4535-9817-b5d9d5f13944">Re:Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...: I agree that there is a stronger focus on bad but that goes for the media in general. I do not believe Catholics are being persecuted which is what I have heard some priests say and sone Catholics.
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]

<div>That's definitely not what I meant, although several of the "concessions" made to the healthcare mandate are laughable, and while the recommendations certainly might not have been INTENDED as an attack on the Catholic church, some of the responses to the church's outrage have led me to believe that the general attitude is that the church just needs to sit down and take it.</div>

lalaith50

[QUOTE] some of the responses to the church's outrage have led me to believe that the general attitude is that the church just needs to sit down and take it.
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]
I just put this on fb and it seems an appropriate reminder here-<div>
<div><span style="color:#333333;font-family:'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:17px;background-color:#ffffff;">“Our Lord was crucified by the nice people who held that religion was all right in its place, so long as its place was not here, where it might demand of them a change of heart. The gravest error of the nice people in all ages is the denial of sin.”</span>

<span style="color:#333333;font-family:'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:17px;background-color:#ffffff;">- Archbishop Fulton Sheen</span> </div></div>

monkeysip

@ Handbanana

I just wanted to say that abortion, BC, and obamacare are all related to social justice.  I think the abortion issue is actually at the heart of social justice because it's the basic belief in the dignity of human life (from which all other issues stem).

So I don't think it's wrong to emphasize these issues, but I wholeheartedly agree that there are other VERY important issues that even a lot of Catholics (and christians in general) ignore.  It is easy to get wrapped up in one issue or another, especially when our two political parties make it very difficult to see things holistically.  In reality, we have to see all issues as relating together (the seamless garment argument).

Sorry, Eliz.  I know this thread has been seriously derailed. 

HandBanana

In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...: I agree that there is a stronger focus on bad but that goes for the media in general. I do not believe Catholics are being persecuted which is what I have heard some priests say and sone Catholics.Posted by HandBananaThat's definitely not what I meant, although several of the "concessions" made to the healthcare mandate are laughable, and while the recommendations certainly might not have been INTENDED as an attack on the Catholic church, some of the responses to the church's outrage have led me to believe that the general attitude is that the church just needs to sit down and take it. Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]
My beginning issue is the failure to see hormonal BC as anything other than BC. Meaning that a womsn taking it must be having sex. I took hormonal BC because I get PMDD and for a while it helped. There are women who get ovarian cysts that could benefit. The great issue is to see hormonal BC as anything other than a tool for sex.

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:d4a6cb06-d913-4220-a6db-54b45ed1eed5">Re:Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...: My beginning issue is the failure to see hormonal BC as anything other than BC. Meaning that a womsn taking it must be having sex. I took hormonal BC because I get PMDD and for a while it helped. There are women who get ovarian cysts that could benefit. The great issue is to see hormonal BC as anything other than a tool for sex.
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]

<div>Yeah, but even the church's stance says that ABC for reasons OTHER than contraception is totally acceptable.</div>

HandBanana

In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:[QUOTE] HandbananaI just wanted to say that abortion, BC, and obamacare are all related to social justice.nbsp; I think the abortion issue is actually at the heart of social justice because it's the basic belief in the dignity of human life from which all other issues stem.So I don't think it's wrong to emphasize these issues, but I wholeheartedly agree that there are other VERY important issues that even a lot of Catholics and christians in general ignore.nbsp; It is easy to get wrapped up in one issue or another, especially when our two political parties make it very difficult to see things holistically.nbsp; In reality, we have to see all issues as relating together the seamless garment argument.Sorry, Eliz.nbsp; I know this thread has been seriously derailed.nbsp; : Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

Yes. Politicians use the issues to avoid addressing the poverty. It works because religious persons then vote based on a single issue. I can't even begin to discuss how sad I am when Catgolics mock persons on government aid but aren't exactly doing their part to end poverty. I am on my phone or I would put my favorite Catholic quotes from St Basil and Bishop Frank Weston.

Eliz77

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:1a44d7e1-a3bc-485d-8371-f470fa9e117e">Re: Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ceremony Music... : Hahaha, I'll bet you had no idea your thread would blow up like this! I'm glad you got it worked out.  I also had to make a "special" request for music, but it was a recessional I'd heard at another church and wanted to use in my own.  The music director special ordered it! 
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]

<div>LOL! I was trying to read through it before and was llike, WHAT happened here?! The only request I had considered asking we decided to use at the reception-"An American Hymn, East of Eden." LOVE that song! </div><div>
</div>

HandBanana

In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...: My beginning issue is the failure to see hormonal BC as anything other than BC. Meaning that a womsn taking it must be having sex. I took hormonal BC because I get PMDD and for a while it helped. There are women who get ovarian cysts that could benefit. The great issue is to see hormonal BC as anything other than a tool for sex.Posted by HandBananaYeah, but even the church's stance says that ABC for reasons OTHER than contraception is totally acceptable. Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE] They do not want to provide BC through insurance.

newlyseliski

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_ceremony-music-6?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a5406239-28da-4a2c-ba77-362d03169d25Post:4a9be1c0-3759-4e07-9b7f-0c92d90ebe44">Re:Ceremony Music...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...: Are you talking about agape and oot? That was nothing. I love this forum because it full of well versed educated Catholic women who usually can have long discussions and disagree without personal attacks.
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]

<div>Threads that get WAYYY off original topic and devolve into theological arguments with barely tangential (or no) relevance to marriage or Catholic weddings.  If folks want to have theological debates about those other topics... try Catholic Answers forum where they've been hashed and re-hashed about fifty dozen times.</div>

lalaith50

[QUOTE] I can't even begin to discuss how sad I am when Catgolics mock persons on government aid but aren't exactly doing their part to end poverty. 
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]
Actually, studies have shown that people who are more "traditional" or "conservative" leaning (in terms of anything- religious, financial, social, etc,) are actually the ones who GIVE far more money out of their own pocket to social needs like poverty.<div>Those who are "liberal" tend to think that the government should be the one taking that responsiblity, and therefore don't do much themselves. (As a generalization.)</div><div>
</div><div>I don't know how <em>you</em> would ever know how much money out of their own pocket a person who is criticizing the welfare system gives to charitable organizations.</div><div>Personally, I think that a smaller non-profit charitable organization is in a FAR better position to determine people's eligibility/need for aid than the gigantic, beaurocratic government, and I think we all would agree that there are many people who take advantage of "the system," but also many people who genuinely need help.
<div>
</div><div>Newly-</div><div>I enjoy these discussions. I'm not going to "stop talking" about something when the conversation goes in that direction simply b/c it's not directly related to the subject matter. I also think that by discussing here things related to church teaching aren't directly related to weddings, we can reach many, many "cradle Catholics" who might never have even thought about these issues before.</div></div>

HandBanana

In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...:In Response to Re:Ceremony Music...: Are you talking about agape and oot? That was nothing. I love this forum because it full of well versed educated Catholic women who usually can have long discussions and disagree without personal attacks.Posted by HandBananaThreads that get WAYYY off original topic and devolve into theological arguments with barely tangential or no relevance to marriage or Catholic weddings. nbsp;If folks want to have theological debates about those other topics... try Catholic Answers forum where they've been hashed and rehashed about fifty dozen times. Posted by newlyseliski[/QUOTE]

That is what I like about this space. I don't want to "try Catholic Answers" because I find that the posters her are much more open and diverse.

Resa77

Wow I missed out on a lot today!! First, I belong to a diocese which is NOT liberal and my church allows Wagner. I get that priests can disobey it is possible. But I'm on the same page with Lalaith, I think. I don't always agree with you, girl, but lately I've just been nodding along to so much of what you say. Second, I love derailed nonWR debates!! I dislike personal attacks and nasty tones, but I like debates bc I learn a lot from all you ladies

agapecarrie

Abortion and BC are VERY imprtant issues for the church to tackle because they are attacking the very dignity of the human person. They are worried about the least among us. 

The very atom of a family, is the love between husband and wife, and incarnating that in the sexual union. When you desacrate that, you desecrate the domestic church, the family, which then breaks down. The prohecy in Humanae vitae coming true.