Justice of the Peace

kellidubs

My fiance and I are both in the military and he's getting ready to deploy to Afghanistan. Our wedding is set for next July when he gets back, but we were looking at possibly going to a JOP for admin purposes (with both of us in agreement/understanding that this is merely a piece of paper for the military and we will not actually be married and act as husband and wife until the actual Catholic ceremony). What is the church's view on this and are there any exceptions (ie military)? I know a few people that have done this but we want to make sure that we can still receive the sacrament of marriage. 

mica178

I have heard that some churches are more lenient about letting your convalidation look like a wedding, but to find out about yours, you need to talk with your priest.

Calypso1977

if you want/need to get married now, have your catholic ceremony now.  if you explan your circumstances to your priest, i'm sure he'd be happy to move the ceremony up.

i would strongly advise against doing a JOP. 

HandBanana

I hope you aren't talking about secretly getting married only to have a wedding later.

Planning a wedding with short time is do-able.  Talk to your priest before you make any decisions.  Also, it isn't just a piece of paper, it will mean you are husband and wife.  No matter what your reasons are.

Also, there is a Military Brides board on here.  Not that you shouldn't post here but I would assume Military Brides would be much more aware of policy and procedure and red tape.

Amynutrition

The Priest at our Church asked us like SIX TIMES if either of us were married before in any capacity to anyone else or each other. And of course we said, "no" each time.

But they still want a notarized letter from both sets of parents swearing we have never been married before in anyway to anyone.

So they would not allow a JOP wedding then Church wedding later. But do what Mica said and check with your Priest, ours is a very conservative parish.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_justice-of-peacee?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:f8faf80b-dc79-40cb-834d-9d4d894df66aPost:d4c78777-91ba-4075-8e4c-59da0815b19d">Re: Justice of the Peace</a>:
[QUOTE]I  Also, it isn't just a piece of paper, it will mean you are husband and wife.  No matter what your reasons are.
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]

Actually, for Catholics, this isn't true. A catholic is bound by canonical form for marriage and in order to actually be married, and be husband and wife, one must follow this form, or get dispensation from form. A civil marriage is not this.

kellidubs

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_justice-of-peacee?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:f8faf80b-dc79-40cb-834d-9d4d894df66aPost:0767c98b-00b1-45b3-a300-a47d71299c4e">Re: Justice of the Peace</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Justice of the Peace : Actually, for Catholics, this isn't true. A catholic is bound by canonical form for marriage and in order to actually be married, and be husband and wife, one must follow this form, or get dispensation from form. A civil marriage is not this.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>That was our thought process. It's simply a legality for the military. And no, we aren't trying to get secretly married. I'll call and talk to the priest but I wanted to do my homework first. And we are stationed overseas so moving up the wedding is easier said than done (he's already left for his last pre-deployment training). </div>

ElisabethJoanne

I don't really have advice, all I know is that in most countries the Church requires a civil marriage before the sacramental marriage. I occasionally read that this is because in most countries the sacramental marriage has no civil consequences, while in the US the religious ceremony counts as a civil ceremony, too. I had good friends, both expertly catechized with degrees in theology, who got married by a JOP in Arizona months before their sacramental marriage in Austria, because the Church in Austria requires the civil ceremony.

I guess I do have advice: Talk to a priest.

[My Church has different canons. We considered doing a civil ceremony before the religious ceremony because I don't like the way things work in the US. I wanted to make a stand that civil marriage is separate from sacramental marriage by doing them separately. Our Priest said that was fine. Our rubrics are clear that the sacramental marriage has no bearing on "the civil contract between the parties."]

Riss91

Related question, because I'm genuinely curious!

When civil marriage happens in advance of sacramental marriage.... do the husband and wife begin living as husband and wife once they are civilly married? Is that against the Church's teaching since you are not married yet in the eyes of the Church. Sort of like living in sin? Just wondering how that works.

Calypso1977

Riss, they are not supposed to.  but also the civil ceremony is usually done the day before.  not weeks or months as would be the case here. 

kelli, im a huge supporter of the miltary.  but i dont think it right for you to marry civilly just to get military benefits, if that's what you are doing, particularly when it means you may also be doing something to somehow jeopardize your faith.

if the two of you can get together for a civil wedding, the surely you can get together with a priest to marry you, if you for some reason need this done prior to july.

divinemsbee

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_justice-of-peacee?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:f8faf80b-dc79-40cb-834d-9d4d894df66aPost:6ff0dcb6-2f66-4015-bce4-1d03fd07c260">Re: Justice of the Peace</a>:
[QUOTE]Riss, they are not supposed to.  but also the civil ceremony is usually done the day before.  not weeks or months as would be the case here.  kelli, im a huge supporter of the miltary.  but<strong> i dont think it right for you to marry civilly just to get military benefits, if that's what you are doing</strong>, particularly when it means you may also be doing something to somehow jeopardize your faith. if the two of you can get together for a civil wedding, the surely you can get together with a priest to marry you, if you for some reason need this done prior to july.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

This is also, in fact, a violation of the USCMJ, and can get a member of the military in pretty big trouble if you present yourself as married to the military but not to the people in your life. Not saying that's what OP is doing, but it's a big no-no. OP, come on over to the MB board if you haven't already, the ladies there are pretty straight shooters.

ElisabethJoanne

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_justice-of-peacee?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:f8faf80b-dc79-40cb-834d-9d4d894df66aPost:93af9dba-5801-4c88-ad82-911642801a9d">Re: Justice of the Peace</a>:
[QUOTE]Related question, because I'm genuinely curious! When civil marriage happens in advance of sacramental marriage.... do the husband and wife begin living as husband and wife once they are civilly married? Is that against the Church's teaching since you are not married yet in the eyes of the Church. Sort of like living in sin? Just wondering how that works.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

They don't start living together until receiving the sacrament. My Austrian friends were strange because they were in school States-side, so the civil ceremony was months before the church ceremony, on a random day when they were together during business hours. Usually, yeah, the civil ceremony is just before the church wedding, like for Monaco's very recent royal wedding.

I don't know why my Austrian friends couldn't do the civil ceremony right before the church ceremony, all in Austria. Austria might have had a residency requirement they didn't meet. The Priest might have wanted the ducks lined up well in advance because the planning was long-distance. Maybe Austria couldn't do a civil ceremony in a language the groom understood. I don't know. But they were good Catholics. Totally accepted the civil ceremony as just a piece of paper.

kellidubs

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_justice-of-peacee?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:f8faf80b-dc79-40cb-834d-9d4d894df66aPost:6ff0dcb6-2f66-4015-bce4-1d03fd07c260">Re: Justice of the Peace</a>:
[QUOTE]Riss, they are not supposed to.  but also the civil ceremony is usually done the day before.  not weeks or months as would be the case here.  kelli, im a huge supporter of the miltary.  but i dont think it right for you to marry civilly just to get military benefits, if that's what you are doing, particularly when it means you may also be doing something to somehow jeopardize your faith. if the two of you can get together for a civil wedding, the surely you can get together with a priest to marry you, if you for some reason need this done prior to july.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

<div>Will the priest do a JOP like service and allow us to have the ceremony later?</div>

Riss91

You can do a simple ceremony outside of mass, which you could keep pretty short and quick. You could also be married during a regular Sunday Mass.

But, there wouldn't be another ceremony later, since you will already be married. You could talk to your priest about what he might be willing to do at later date, when you hold a celebration. Possibly a short prayer or something, but not a full-out ceremony.

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_justice-of-peacee?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:f8faf80b-dc79-40cb-834d-9d4d894df66aPost:6ff0dcb6-2f66-4015-bce4-1d03fd07c260">Re: Justice of the Peace</a>:
[QUOTE]Riss, they are not supposed to.  but also the civil ceremony is usually done the day before.  not weeks or months as would be the case here.  kelli, im a huge supporter of the miltary. <strong> but i dont think it right for you to marry civilly just to get military benefits,</strong> if that's what you are doing, particularly when it means you may also be doing something to somehow jeopardize your faith. if the two of you can get together for a civil wedding, the surely you can get together with a priest to marry you, if you for some reason need this done prior to july.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

Surely that is not the only reason.  In college a friend of mine got married the year before she graduated because once her husband went active duty, if she wasn't family, she wouldn't even be allowed on base to visit him.  All she said was "admin purposes."

OP: recently our deacon told us he performed a wedding for a military couple on a holy day, which is not supposed to happen, but as he put it, "For those situations, we can be flexible."  I think Mica's advice is best -- your priest will likely be able to work something out for you.

mica178

Eye to eye, Calypso.

OP -- I am a little confused.  If your priest is able to do a small ceremony for you sooner, why would you want a big second ceremony later? 

I would talk over all of your concerns and hopes with your priest and see what can be worked out.  In special circumstances, either the wedding can be pushed up without the usual 6-12 month pre-wedding prep, or a convalidation can be arranged.  But you won't know until you talk with your priest.

Calypso1977

im sure OP just wants the big fancy celebration after.  because honestly, i dont see any reason why a simple catholic, legit ceremony can be done now.

OP, military life is hard.  it is.  i have family and friends who are actively serving our country. i couldnt do what they do or what their spouses and children do for them here.  but the bottom line is you chose to become involved with someone in teh military. that comes with enormous sacrifices.  your big reception might be one of the sacrifices you have to make.  id personally rather have a fully legit wedding in the eyes of the church, than a fancy reception.  look at it this way.  if your FI/H will be stationed in a combat zone, how you would feel if something happened to him and he died without this sacrament?  wouldn't you want him to die with the graces of the marriage sacrament and be united to you forever? 

i say have the ceremony now.  you can always have the reception later, but it wouldtn have a do over ceremony.  it would just be a reception.  that might be good if youve already placed deposits, etc. which i can understand.

doctabroccoli

I just want to clarify that even though the Church would not recognize her JOP wedding, she would still be legally married and therefore could not have an actual wedding ceremony in the Church, but rather a convalidation. OP - You should speak with your priest like PPs said, because some priests won't even let a convalidation have its own private ceremony.

kellidubs

We can obviously do something small here overseas, but it's not about having a big party, it's about being able to celebrate with our family, who is back home where we were planning on having the wedding. This is why we aren't just running out and doing it (like a lot of military couples do) because receiving the actual sacrament is extremely important to us, as is celebrating with our family. 

HandBanana

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_justice-of-peacee?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:f8faf80b-dc79-40cb-834d-9d4d894df66aPost:0767c98b-00b1-45b3-a300-a47d71299c4e">Re: Justice of the Peace</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Justice of the Peace : Actually, for Catholics, this isn't true. A catholic is bound by canonical form for marriage and in order to actually be married, and be husband and wife, one must follow this form, or get dispensation from form. A civil marriage is not this.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I was more so pointing out that it is dissmissive to refer to the JOP wedding as only a piece of paper.  It kind of bothers me when persons refer to it as "just a piece of paper" especially since there is an entire population who is banned from participating in "just a piece of paper."

You are completely correct about Catholic marriage and this is why I was married in the Catholic church.

HandBanana

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_justice-of-peacee?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:f8faf80b-dc79-40cb-834d-9d4d894df66aPost:a99d7727-3480-4bf0-89bf-9b29199c8cf4">Re: Justice of the Peace</a>:
[QUOTE]We can obviously do something small here overseas, but it's not about having a big party, it's about being able to celebrate with our family, who is back home where we were planning on having the wedding. This is why we aren't just running out and doing it <strong>(like a lot of military couples do)</strong> because receiving the actual sacrament is extremely important to us, as is celebrating with our family. 
Posted by kellidubs[/QUOTE]

A lot of military couples have to bend their time lines because of deployments and leave and schedule changes.  Getting married and then having a wedding isn't the norm for the military couples I know.

I recommend asking on the Military Brides.

mica178

You could have a small Catholic ceremony first, then when your future husband returns from his deployment, have a Welcome Back/Housewarming Party closer to your relatives.  You could put out your wedding albums on display so everyone can see the pictures.

doctabroccoli

Question for someone more knowledgable... If you have a convalidation, is it still considered receiving the sacrament of marriage? This seems important to the OP.

savvy_savs

My husband is from the UK and we decided a year ago that we wanted him to live in the US sooner than planned for our wedding this NYE 2011. The only way we could do this was to have our civil ceremony with JOP. We could have had the wedding in the church at the same time, but weren't able to complete Pre-Cana classes before his time would be up on visitor stay. We talked to our priest about this, we were already engaged at this time and already had our date booked at the church, and he said we would have to do a convalidation, but could still have the the entire Mass,. Also we would have had to been married for at least 6 months before marrying in the eyes of the church.

We have recently been told that we could not have the full Mass because we are legally married. After further discussion, I found out that this is not a rule but more of a guideline because it's meant not to let Non-Catholics feel left out. I told the adult education leader that without the Eucharist it would not feel like a Sacrament to me. We are working on having the full Mass.

With that said, I know that our situation is unique and we did consult our priest before we made our decision. If my priest had stated that he would not support this, then we would not have gone this route. We are living together but not "living as man and wife". My suggestion is to talk to your priest and tell him the whole situation. Special requests can be made if you let them in on the whole story.

Good luck!!

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_justice-of-peacee?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:f8faf80b-dc79-40cb-834d-9d4d894df66aPost:f710fba3-983f-4cb5-9c60-c5f9b5f5e3c6">Re: Justice of the Peace</a>:
[QUOTE]Question for someone more knowledgable... If you have a convalidation, is it still considered receiving the sacrament of marriage? This seems important to the OP.
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

Yes...see, for the Catholics, a convalidation IS actually a wedding, it is when they are really and trully getting married. If both people are baptized, then it is a sacrament.