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An interesting Dear Prudence

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Re: An interesting Dear Prudence

  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    Yes it is harsh but let's get real it is a freaking column for entertainment.  If the letter writer wants real advise from someone who knows her or knows more about the couple than her few paragraphs tell then she should seek the advisce of a therapist, counselor, or religious advisor maybe.  Do I think this could be grounds for divorce? You bet.  Should they exhaust all other options first?  Maybe.  Having been divorced myself let me tell you Chels and Brandi that I never expected it would happen to me and I think you are both fools to believe there are no circumstances that could ever arise to make you feel differently.  I assure you there are very good reasons for people to no longer be married.  So much so that even the Catholic church has found their way around it with their little in house divorce they like to call annulment. 
    Posted by Dot Dash
    Late to the party but this x100.
  • Oh FFS, this is giving me a headache.

    Koda nailed it on the head.  We're takling in circles and it's getting nowhere, so I give up trying to explain myself.  Have a good night everyone.
  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence :  There's nothing convenient about it.  If you lie in your vows, you didn't really make a vow.  You have no marriage.  If you honestly meant your vow and lied about nothing, you have a marriage.  Once you have a marriage, you cannot undo it (per the scripture I gave you earlier).  There is no dissolving a marriage becaues God himself creates it.  Only God can undo what God creates, man cannot undo what God creates.  Again, you don't have to agree, but I don't see it as illogical or a "loophole", if you held the same religious beliefs.
    Posted by monkeysip


    I'm sorry, but you are wrong. I just went through an annulment (I divorced 10 years ago and didn't ever expect or want to marry again. I won't go into personal details, but suffice it to say my first marriage was evil)

    There are circumstances where a marriage can be annulled....lying about the desire to procreate is one of them. After all, The Church teaches that one of the purposes of marriage is for procreation.

  • Chels-  my issue with you is that you preach like you are some uber-catholic but when you talk about it its like you have no fvcking idea what you are talking about.

    Im not even catholic and i feel like i know more about the catholic church than you do.
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  • Its going nowhere because you're viewpoint is absolutely INSANE. 
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  • edited June 2012
    um, so I haven't been posting in a while but this thread is enough to force me back (I have been lurking...we can go into where I have been in another thread, or not, it isn't all that exciting)...

    Brandi - you got a special marriage certificate that makes it more difficult for you to get a divorce? You needed a special piece of paper (that I presume you paid more for) in order to ensure that you don't get a divorce? Your convictions aren't enough?

    Chels - your religious beliefs regarding abortion is an 'okay' situation for you to discuss your opinion with someone but your religious beliefs regarding divorce aren't?  Aren't all sins equal in the eyes of the Lord?

    And with that...I'm back, I missed you betches. (eta for a grammar error).
  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : I'm sorry, but you are wrong. I just went through an annulment (I divorced 10 years ago and didn't ever expect or want to marry again. I won't go into personal details, but suffice it to say my first marriage was evil) There are circumstances where a marriage can be annulled....lying about the desire to procreate is one of them. After all, The Church teaches that one of the purposes of marriage is for procreation.
    Posted by Lizzieyounce
    Lizzie,

    I never said there were no cases in which a marriage cannot be annuled.  I said a valid marriage cannot be dissolved.

    If you marriage was annuled, it is because the church found that it was invalid for whatever reason.  (I don't know what your reason is, and I'm not asking because it's not my business, but a possible reason would be what you stated, if someone lied about their vasectomy or desire to procreate).

    I think you misunderstood me, Lizzie.

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  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : Ok then I am lost again. 
    Posted by Dot Dash

    Sorry, Dot, let me clarify...if you find out that for instance your spouse got a vasectomy/tubal ligation before the marriage, and didn't tell their prospective spouse before the marriage, then yes...those are grounds for an annulment. One of the parties entered into the sacrament  with a lie.
  • I can move out and start my two years of required counseling at any time, regardless of the reason. No one can predict the future and maybe one day I will utilize this but for now I want to believe that I will stand by my vows. That's not for everyone, but it is for me.
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  • NebbNebb
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    In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    Chelsea why on earth would you start a post that was guaranteed to start debate and then bail as soon as you didn't like the way it was going?  That is serious chicken siitt. 
    Posted by Dot Dash
    Cause backpeddling gives her a headache!
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  • NebbNebb
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    In Response to Re:An interesting Dear Prudence:
    I can move out and start my two years of required counseling at any time, regardless of the reason. No one can predict the future and maybe one day I will utilize this but for now I want to believe that I will stand by my vows. That's not for everyone, but it is for me.
    Posted by brandichamberlain
    Doesnt everyone, everyone who DOESNT have this stupid extra piece of paper?? Married is married, regardless of how many papers you sign.
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  • edited June 2012
    In Response to Re:An interesting Dear Prudence:
    I can move out and start my two years of required counseling at any time, regardless of the reason. No one can predict the future and maybe one day I will utilize this but for now I want to believe that I will stand by my vows. That's not for everyone, but it is for me.
    Posted by brandichamberlain
    But why do you need a 'special' marriage certificate?  I have some pretty strong feelings about divorce (for myself, none of which I would ever put on anyone else) but I don't need any paperwork to make it more difficult. I can seek out counseling without a special certificate. Are you worried that you will make a 'rash' decision in the heat of the moment? I don't understand it, even from a religious standpoint. 
    (edited AGAIN for a typo...geez)
  • In Response to Re:An interesting Dear Prudence:
    um, so I haven't been posting in a while but this thread is enough to force me back I have been lurking...we can go into where I have been in another thread, or not, it isn't all that exciting...Brandi you got a special marriage certificate that makes it more difficult for you to get a divorce? You needed a special piece of paper that I presume you paid more for in order to ensure that you don't get a divorce? Your convictions aren't enough?Chels your religious beliefs regarding abortion is an 'okay' situation for you to discuss your opinion with someone but your religious beliefs regarding divorce aren't? nbsp;Aren't all sins equal in the eyes of the Lord?And with that...I'm back, I missed you betches. eta for a grammar error. Posted by number55
    I have applied for a covenant marriage license. It is the same cost. There are plenty of reasons that I could get a divorce, it would require counseling to at least try, but for FI and I it was important to do it. I don't know how else to explain it.
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  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : I get that and I can see how in some cases it would be a no brainer.  However let's say in the case of marital rape.  She says he did it and he says it never happened.  No one saw it.  he never did it to anyone before.  It's a crap shoot at this point as to who is more convincing.  And absolutely a fact that one of them is lying.  How is this situation better served in an annulment than a divorce and why on earth should this woman not be able to remarry at a later time if she chooses divorce if the annulment is not granted?  Aaaaand how is this annulment protecting her from future rape if it can take years? 
    Posted by Dot Dash
    I think if a guy rapes his wife, there's a lot more to it.  It's most likely not just the ONLY thing going on.  There's probably been some evidence of him being controlling or manipulative before.  Or maybe he has issues with substance abuse.  Or a mental breakdown.  I'm just saying that it's hard to believe there would be no other evidence of him being a dirtbag. 

    Either way, the woman would still be advised to get a divorce or otherwise remove herself from the situation somehow.  In fact, most dioceses actually require you to get a civil divorce before you even apply for an annulment. 

    This isn't just directed towards you, but I feel the need to post one of the main scriptures that support's Catholic teaching.  Obviously I recognize that many of you don't believe in christianity, or if you do, don't necessarily believe in every Scripture, and that's fine.  I'm just trying to show that the Church didn't just make this teaching up out of nowhere.

    Matt 19:

    1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

    Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

    “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

    Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except unlawful marriage, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

    There are other scriptures, but I'm probably already annoying the heck out of you guys anyway, so I just did the one.

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  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : I get that and I can see how in some cases it would be a no brainer.  However let's say in the case of marital rape.  She says he did it and he says it never happened.  No one saw it.  he never did it to anyone before.  It's a crap shoot at this point as to who is more convincing.  And absolutely a fact that one of them is lying.  How is this situation better served in an annulment than a divorce and why on earth should this woman not be able to remarry at a later time if she chooses divorce if the annulment is not granted?  Aaaaand how is this annulment protecting her from future rape if it can take years? 
    Posted by Dot Dash
    Silly Dot, how could a man take something by force that is owed to him by his property? /sarcasm font

    I don't really want to add to the Chels pile on but I have to say you and I have 100% different world views. I can't even fathom seeing things from your POV.

    While I don't agree with some of the views Monkeysip and others are expressing re annulment I feel like I can at least understand their perspective. 

     Of course to me divorce is "normal" as my parents have 8 total between them (7 if you only count theirs once). I was always grateful that they divorced when I was young rather than raising me in a household filled with hate. 

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  • Wasn't there a time when catholicism dictated that NO ONE could get a divorce ever, for any reason? Whatever happened to that?
  • chelseamb11chelseamb11
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    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    Chelsea why on earth would you start a post that was guaranteed to start debate and then bail as soon as you didn't like the way it was going?  That is serious chicken siitt. 
    Posted by Dot Dash
    You're right. Which is why I'm coming back.

    My beliefs regarding divorce (or not telling someone whether or not to get one) has zero to do with religion.  Same with abortion.  I've been pro-life a lot longer than I've been a Catholic.  I have never once stated any of my reasonings in this thread to be with my religion.  Someone (Dot I think) started asking mea bout my religion which prompted me to answer those questions.

    I get that my beliefs don't make sense to you guys, and they don't have to. But shiite, if this was the other way around and I was flaming everyone else's beliefs, yo'ud be all "ZOMG you have no respect for other beliefs".  But the second my beliefs veer off from the "norm" on here, I'm insane?  that makes no sense to me.

    Edited for clarity.
  • In Response to Re:An interesting Dear Prudence:
    In Response to Re:An interesting Dear Prudence: I have applied for a covenant marriage license. It is the same cost. There are plenty of reasons that I could get a divorce, it would require counseling to at least try, but for FI and I it was important to do it. I don't know how else to explain it.
    Posted by brandichamberlain
    I totally agree with counseling. I don't know why you need a piece of paper forcing you do it. Now if that piece of paper means you get counseling free of charge...that's another thing. But I feel like as an adult, getting married, saying vows (should you choose to), that should be enough to say that you are committed to working through problems. A 'different' type of paper shouldn't make it more likely to happen. 
  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : You're right. Which is why I'm coming back. My beliefs regarding divorce (or not telling someone whether or not to get one) has zero to do with religion.  Same with abortion.  I've been pro-life a lot longer than I've been a Catholic.  I have never once stated any of my reasonings in this thread to be with my religion.  Someone (Dot I think) started asking mea bout my religion which prompted me to answer those questions. I get that my beliefs don't make sense to you guys, and they don't have to. But shiite, if this was the other way around and I was flaming everyone else's beliefs, yo'ud be all "ZOMG you have no respect for other beliefs".  But the second my beliefs veer off from the "norm" on here, I'm insane?  that makes no sense to me. Edited for clarity.
    Posted by chelseamb11
    Except your beliefs influence the advice you would give to someone, regardless if its in the best interest of them. That's the problem with your beliefs. Have all those beliefs all you want, but if someone comes to you for advice, sometimes you have to consider what is best for them, not what you believe. Especically if your beliefs are different. 

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  • I don't think anyone is flaming you for your beliefs Chels. I think people are showing you that what you will and won't give advice about is contradicting. 
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  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    Wasn't there a time when catholicism dictated that NO ONE could get a divorce ever, for any reason? Whatever happened to that?
    Posted by Megbo2012
    Oh you mean like how both people had to be Catholic to get married?  Up here in the great white north you don't BOTH have to be. Only one has to be, with the promise that you will raise your children in the church. It's a joke, because REALLY, how is anyone going to make sure that happens. 

    The number of people who have full Catholic weddings just to make their parents happy, when they don't believe in the faith or attend a church...it makes me sad.  
  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    Wasn't there a time when catholicism dictated that NO ONE could get a divorce ever, for any reason? Whatever happened to that?
    Posted by Megbo2012
    Meg

    Marriage (in the west, where the Church had influence) was primarily a religious institution.  The Church granted marriages, not the state (in most places--not all).  So, no, the Church never granted divorces.  But sometimes annulments (annulments go way back, in some form or the other).  Annulment =/= divorce.

    But when the Church lost its influence, and the separation of the state from religion become more prominent around renaissance/modern era, marriage became not just a religious institution, but a civil one.  Then you had religious marriage and civil marriage.  With the rise of "civil divorce", the Church played little role in it.  It doesn't have much to do with whether you're married civilly or religiously.  So, like I said, civil divorce has never been considered a sin necessarily (unless it's for the wrong reasons).  But there still exists no such thing as a religious divorce.

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  • (I should add, I don't believe that church attendance is mandatory for all people of faith. It is however a fairly significant tenant of the Catholic faith, hence why I mention it in this specific case).
  • My mom is on her sixth marriage and my dad is on his fourth. I've seen divorce pushed so easily so for me it was important in my life to hold myself to a different standard than my parents. FI's parents have been married for 32 years and taught marriage classes do FI has very specific views. We talked about it, researched it, and spoke heavily about it counseling. It made sense for us even though it doesn't for a lot of others. That's all I can really explain. I don't want anyone to see it my way, per se, but I don't think that I'm wrong for wanting that for myself.
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  • Having gone through 14 months of fertility hell, had I found out H knew he couldn't reproduce and let me put the blame on myself, he would be dead to me. That is a royal mindfuck and equal to spousal abuse in my eyes.
  • Chels- the difference is that you are the only one talking about their beliefs all.the.time.

    You wouldnt know half of our beliefs because we dont talk about it incessantly
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  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence : So they will encourage you to get one and then punish you for it?  WTF????????????
    Posted by Dot Dash
    How are they punishing you?  Like I said, there's nothing inherently sinful about civil divorce.  You don't suffer any religious consequences for getting a civil divorce.

    But if your annulment isn't granted, then the Church still considers you married and cannot sanction you getting married to another person.  That would be adultery.

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  • In Response to Re: An interesting Dear Prudence:
    I don't think anyone is flaming you for your beliefs Chels. I think people are showing you that what you will and won't give advice about is contradicting. 
    Posted by LetsHikeToday
    Maybe you're right about the bolded, and maybe even the unbolded.  I just have a hard time feeling like people don't flame my beliefs because of the reactions I get when expressing them.

    I can't explain WHY (heck there's a lot of stuff I don't get about myself), but I have no qualms telling someone that abortion is a bad idea.  I just don't feel right telling someone to get a divorceo r not to when I have no clue if there are other options that could be better for them.  I know it sounds hypocritical, it's just how I feel.  I'll own it. It makes sense in my head, I promise.  I just don't think any of you want to get into my head lol.
  • Chelsea, I don't really get how you can say that your beliefs regarding both abortion and divorce are separate from your faith when the faith you choose to follow has some fairly significant opinions on both those issues. I mean, you opinions may have predated your faith but to pretend that your faith doesn't play a role in the strength of your convictions...I feel like that would be undermining the strength of your faith...you can't have it both ways. 
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