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Nazi Thoughts?

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Re: Nazi Thoughts?

  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    LTZ, can I ask do you think this verdict is unfair because he was a POW or because there is simply no/not enough proof? Both? If a "regular" death camp guard (not a POW) was on trial and said he was just following orders when he took part in killing thousands of people, should he be let off? Does he have to openly admit to enjoying his job in order to fairly be convicted? Should only high ranking Nazis be help accountable? I understand that using a POW to try and get my point across, doesn't really help. But I'm hung up on using "following orders" as an excuse.
    Posted by Nina0528
    I'm not totally sure. I think being a POW makes a bit of difference. I kind of agree with PPs who said that feeling threatened, scared and under immense pressure or confusion can make people do things they might not normally do.

    Do I think they should have to pay some sort of consequence, yes I think so. But am I sure of what that is? No, not at all. Should high ranking Nazis be held accountable? For sure. I think there's a big difference in doing something because someone threatens your life and/or families lives as opposed to just wanting to carry out such a plan 'just because'.

    This is the reason why crimes commited in self defense or crimes of passion are punished less harshly than those that are thought out, malicious crimes.

    Soldiers kill people under orders too. So would saying you were just following orders in that situation be ok? Because you're not even forced into that, you sign up for it.

    Again, I'm not saying you're wrong or anyone else in this thread is wrong. There's a thousand different ways this could be looked at. But if we're following our justice system, and there is not enough evidence to prove someone did something, well then that's just the way it is.

    I'm just trying to get a grasp on this from several different perspectives.
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : You probably won't read this but I'm gonna say it anyway, I'm actually thinking about getting a Master's certificate in Holocaust and Genocide studies OR actually doing my Master's program in it. (I don't want to move to the states, which is why I'm leaning on the certificate). I also really want to go to Poland and other countries to visit death camps. I have tons of books and articles on this. I'm purposely suffering through a class with a terrible prof because it's about the Hitler state and I will kick my department if they don't offer the Holocaust class this year. I'm extremely obsessed.
    Posted by avsfan33
    @avsfan, a great book that I thought was fasinating was called "Hitler and Stalin:Parallel Lives" If you haven't read it you may be interested in it. It will give you an indepth look on where and how and why these two umm men(?)had the ideas they did. I call them animals but. that's me.
  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? :. Soldiers kill people under orders too. So would saying you were just following orders in that situation be ok? Because you're not even forced into that, you sign up for it.
    Posted by LessThanZero
    We do prosecute our soldiers for following orders. 
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  • MrsMack10612MrsMack10612 The Witch City
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    Mob: I always like a good discussion. FI and I have tjem all the time and I've gotten pretty good at playing both sides of a debate. History IS fascinating and there is much to be learned from our past.

     

  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : We do prosecute our soldiers for following orders. 
    Posted by Blueyed228
    Are you referring to the "torture" cases. Where they were taking pictures?

    I understand that. I mean in average situations where some people are unfortunately killed in the line of fire when the target is on a specific enemy.

    One of FI's groomsmen as well as a good friend's husband are Marines. They technically killed people while in Iraq and Afghanistan but they were never prosecuted for it.
  • MrsMack10612MrsMack10612 The Witch City
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    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : We do prosecute our soldiers for following orders. 
    Posted by Blueyed228
    Very true. A prime example is the Mi Lai (sp?) Massacre during Vietnam. I can remember his name, but was soldier from a platoon, possibly the LT was held accountable and court martialed. Apologies if any details are wrong I'm grabbing from memory.

     

  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : Are you referring to the "torture" cases. Where they were taking pictures? I understand that. I mean in average situations where some people are unfortunately killed in the line of fire when the target is on a specific enemy. One of FI's groomsmen as well as a good friend's husband are Marines. They technically killed people while in Iraq and Afghanistan but they were never prosecuted for it.
    Posted by LessThanZero
    No.
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  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : No.
    Posted by Blueyed228
    Ok, well that was just one example I had in my head but there are plenty of others.
  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : Very true. A prime example is the Mi Lai (sp?) Massacre during Vietnam. I can remember his name, but was soldier from a platoon, possibly the LT was held accountable and court martialed. Apologies if any details are wrong I'm grabbing from memory.
    Posted by kjhowd
    William Calley
  • MrsMack10612MrsMack10612 The Witch City
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    Thank you!

     

  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : @avsfan, a great book that I thought was fasinating was called "Hitler and Stalin:Parallel Lives" If you haven't read it you may be interested in it. It will give you an indepth look on where and how and why these two umm men(?)had the ideas they did. I call them animals but. that's me.
    Posted by mob2689

    I've actually studied Stalin pretty indepth too. A lot of Stalin's issues were his paranoia. I read Mein Kampf as well (for an assignment) so it's interesting to see how Hitler came to the conclusions that he did. The class I'm taking right now shows how it went from A to B with Hitler. Mein Kampf is actually interesting if you're willing to sit through 500 pages of Jew bashing and propaganda. My obsession also includes trying to figure out why he thought the things he did.

    I actually just finished a biography about a girl who lived in the same town as Hitler called "On Hitler's Mountain" or something like that. It's actually interesting to read things from the perspective of someone who was living through it as a German child and had no idea what was happening.
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  • I completely agree that there is a million different ways to look at this. And, unless I was in that situation, I don't know what I would do in his situation. It's easy for me to say that I would rather be killed than have any part in the deaths of all those people in the camps (even as "just" a guard), but who knows what I would actually do. Also, in this case, I like to believe that the German courts has more information than we do and the decision was just. I guess I don't see accessory to murder and 5 years in prison (which he might not even serve) as that harsh.

    As for soldiers: if a soldier was given orders to start killing civilians for no reason, he (and those giving the orders) should be held accountable.

    With that, I'm off to bed. This has been an interesting conversation, which I appreciate! Have a good night everyone!
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  • MrsMack10612MrsMack10612 The Witch City
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    I'm with Nina, great discussion but it's "pumpkin time" here on the East Coast.

     

  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    . As for soldiers: if a soldier was given orders to start killing civilians for no reason, he (and those giving the orders) should be held accountable.Posted by Nina0528
    The only orders that soldiers dont have to follow are ones that are illegal (against the rules of engagement).  If they dont follow any other order they can go to jail or worse.

    Shooting innocent civilians is against the rules of engagement though.
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  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : I've actually studied Stalin pretty indepth too. A lot of Stalin's issues were his paranoia. I read Mein Kampf as well (for an assignment) so it's interesting to see how Hitler came to the conclusions that he did. The class I'm taking right now shows how it went from A to B with Hitler. Mein Kampf is actually interesting if you're willing to sit through 500 pages of Jew bashing and propaganda. My obsession also includes trying to figure out why he thought the things he did. I actually just finished a biography about a girl who lived in the same town as Hitler called "On Hitler's Mountain" or something like that. It's actually interesting to read things from the perspective of someone who was living through it as a German child and had no idea what was happening.
    Posted by avsfan33
    Interesting fact: When Hitler died, he had no descendants, so the rights to his writing reverted to the state of Bavarian, his home residence. They still hold the copyright to Mein Kampf in German and refuse to allow it to be published (in German). I believe the copyright expires 70 or 90 years after a person's death, though, at which point someone could print and distribute it in German.

    Germans are very touchy about this.
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  • In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts?:
    In Response to Re: Nazi Thoughts? : Interesting fact: When Hitler died, he had no descendants, so the rights to his writing reverted to the state of Bavarian, his home residence. They still hold the copyright to Mein Kampf in German and refuse to allow it to be published (in German). I believe the copyright expires 70 or 90 years after a person's death, though, at which point someone could print and distribute it in German. Germans are very touchy about this.
    Posted by msmerymac

    Yeah, I was shocked that I found it as easily as I did. It actually started as trying to find information about the book and then I found the PDF of the book. I don't have it anymore because my computer crashed and I deleted it before that anyway because it was a huge file. 

    I don't blame them for being incredibly touchy about it. That was a pretty interesting fact.
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  • edited May 2011
    Footnote in all this I am shocked and appauled that the US Gov't allowed for this man to be handed over with no eveidence.

    "In a 1985 report, the FBI's Cleveland field office concluded that: "Justice is ill-served in the prosecution of an American citizen on evidence which is not only normally inadmissible in a court of law but based on evidence and allegations quite likely fabricated by the KGB."


    Makes any person that came here from another country nervous, just to think how many ppl that is and all the events that have unfolded recently in other countries. They get thier US citizenship lived a normal live but yet w/o evidence just because you aren't born here and there is no evidence at all for them to allow the person to be handed over. If I was in thier shoes I would be shaking in my shoes on what my old govt / or the others  that I ran from just to live would make up just so they can have my head on a platter 45 years later.

    Ok back to work for a while, a long while, like 8 hours :) have a great day!
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