saints + intercessory prayer... question from a non-Catholic lurker

Re: saints + intercessory prayer... question from a non-Catholic lurker

• Resa77

  

  March 2013

  Thanks for the post!  Don't worry, I cannot imagine your question would offend anyone. 
  
  We ask saints to intercede on our behalf, just as you would ask your pastor or your Mom.  Why do we ask the saints to intercede instead of solely asking the living?  Well, we figure they're a little closer to God, being in heaven and all   We aren't praying TO them as much as praying WITH them.  
  
  I once had a teacher explain our prayers "to" Mary (which aren't really TO Mary) and as us presenting our imperfect prayers and saying "can you pass this on to your son?"  I think the same concept can be applied to praying "to" any saint.  It's like when your uncle knows someone on the board of admissions to a school you'd like to attend, and you call your uncle and say "hey, on Saturday when you're golfing with him, can you mention my application?"  Why don't you just call the guy directly?  Well, because your uncle has a special "in," and you want to take advantage of that!  Likewise, we believe that the saints have a special relationship with God, and so we ask them to help us out.
  
  Hope this makes some sense to you!

   

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• tiny speck member

  

  March 2013

  Thank you Resa! Yeah, I guess that makes sense, and I had never thought about it in terms of praying "with" the saints rather than praying "to" them. That makes more sense--it's the praying "to" them that I get hung up on.
  
  I guess I also just have a hard time getting my head around accepting as fact that people (however holy their lives may have been) who others on earth have decided can be called saints, are definitely "in heaven with God" right now and can hear our prayers. Which is why the idea of the living praying on behalf of one another makes more sense to me initially. Your response does help though!

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• maryjohnson610

  

  March 2013

  Regarding praying to the dead, I understand your wariness with the idea, but it's actually quite beautiful. We believe that the saints lived holy lives and even though they are no longer living on earth, we believe they are living in heaven. As Catholics, we also believe that we are all united in the Body of Christ, therefore we can ask them to pray for us. Being that the saints were very holy people, we believe that they were expecially close to God so they even more so can ask God to grant them favor on our behalf. We venerate them because they lived holy lives and had great faith, and we should aim to live lives like them. I hope this helps!! God bless you in your journey.

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• agapecarrie member

  

  March 2013

  Praying isn't equal to idolizing or worshipping, in the common definition of the word. Praying is asking. It is only by the power of God that we can do this. Also, it's not "competitive"--- meaning, by honoring saints we are actually honoring God more, not less. The canonization process is very strict and lengthy. Saint's writings are scrutinized, the miracles they are credited with have to be scientifically "proven" to be miracles (along with "devils advocates"-- people who have to try to disprove them). And in any case, we do know some people are in heaven that would hear our prayers. God isn't a beurocrat that if we called out the wrong saint name, he's not going to block them from assisting us.

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• tiny speck member

  

  March 2013 edited March 2013

  That's interesting too, Carrie, "by honoring saints we are actually honoring God more, not less," and that there are surely some people in heaven that would hear. Yes. I'm really glad I came out and asked because it's so great to hear the reasons behind these things.
  
  I do know that the canonization process is strict and lengthy. Hildegard of Bingen was only just recently made a saint, wasn't she? I didn't mean to imply that it was an easy and/or arbitrary process. Though I wasn't aware of the "devils advocate" aspect to it. I did my BA and MA in medieval studies and am just now completing my PhD (admittedly focusing on "secular" literature and history, not theology or philosophy), so I have become more fascinated and drawn to the faith having studied a major period of its history, alongside the cultural outputs of that period. Every day though I see that I really know so little about Catholicism as it is practised today and why certain beliefs have persisted. This is really interesting!

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• Resa77

  

  March 2013

  I also want to add in regards to your hesitance about accepting that we, on earth, have the capacity to determine whether someone else is in heaven: as a non-Catholic, you are not used to accepting papal authority.  We, as Catholics, believe that the pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from speaking fallibly on matters of faith and morals, in his capacity as pope.  So that, in combination with the fact that there's quite a process involved in canonizing a Saint, makes it a bit more than just some random Christian on the street deciding that JFK is definitely in heaven, you know?
  
  But like I said, as a non-Catholic, you're not used to the whole pope thing, so it's very understandable for you to question the ability to name saints.  I'm sure that many converts , or those considering conversion, have a hard time getting used to it!

   

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• SquishyMine member

  

  March 2013

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_saints-intercessory-prayer-question-from-a-non-catholic-lurker?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:af9e23ed-98cc-4ddb-8415-81c2bf02da1aPost:62181b8e-5ab7-48a3-bbf1-18ec1ff25dc2">Re: saints + intercessory prayer... question from a non-Catholic lurker</a>:
  [QUOTE]I also want to add in regards to your hesitance about accepting that we, on earth, have the capacity to determine whether someone else is in heaven: as a non-Catholic, you are not used to accepting papal authority.  <strong>We, as Catholics, believe that the pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from speaking fallibly on matters of faith and morals, in his capacity as pope.  </strong>So that, in combination with the fact that there's quite a process involved in canonizing a Saint, makes it a bit more than just some random Christian on the street deciding that JFK is definitely in heaven, you know? But like I said, as a non-Catholic, you're not used to the whole pope thing, so it's very understandable for you to question the ability to name saints.  I'm sure that many converts , or those considering conversion, have a hard time getting used to it!
  Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]
  
  <div>Respectfully, and just to clarify for the OP, the pope is only infalible when he <em>defines a doctrine </em>regarding faith and morals, not just when speaking on them in general.  This has only happened a very few times in church history, under very specific, defined circumstances.  The most common example being the defining of the Assumption of Mary.  </div><div>
  </div><div>I would agree with and reinterate what others have said that we are asking the saints and Mary to pray for (intercede for) us.  We are not praying TO them.  A very common question among protestants!  Glad you asked!</div>

  

  So this is the miracle that I've been dreaming of...

  

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• agapecarrie member

  

  March 2013

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_saints-intercessory-prayer-question-from-a-non-catholic-lurker?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:af9e23ed-98cc-4ddb-8415-81c2bf02da1aPost:8dc962d2-1219-496b-b616-a41ef5d27c5c">Re: saints + intercessory prayer... question from a non-Catholic lurker</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re: saints + intercessory prayer... question from a non-Catholic lurker : Respectfully, and just to clarify for the OP, the pope is only infalible when he defines a doctrine regarding faith and morals, not just when speaking on them in general.  This has only happened a very few times in church history, under very specific, defined circumstances.  The most common example being the defining of the Assumption of Mary.   I would agree with and reinterate what others have said that we are asking the saints and Mary to pray for (intercede for) us.  We are not praying TO them.  A very common question among protestants!  Glad you asked!
  Posted by SquishyMine[/QUOTE]
  
  <div>another clarification:</div><div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:15px;background-color:#ffffff;">The Pope holds the keys of Saint Peter and Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine for belief as being divinely revealed, and as the teaching of Christ, the doctrine must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.</span></div><div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:15px;background-color:#ffffff;">
  </span></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif" color="#000000"><span style="font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:15px;">Regarding saints though: particular canonized saints don't fit into either category-- we are not bound to believe that one particular one is in heaven (except Mary).</span></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif" color="#000000"><span style="font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:15px;">
  </span></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif" color="#000000"><span style="font-size:12.727272033691406px;line-height:15px;">However, due to this understanding of obedience and magisterium teaching, caholics tend to trust our Holy Father and the church in all matters regarding faith and morals/ </span></font></div>

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• SquishyMine member

  

  March 2013

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_saints-intercessory-prayer-question-from-a-non-catholic-lurker?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:af9e23ed-98cc-4ddb-8415-81c2bf02da1aPost:2abe6e92-5502-44d8-9eb9-d05aa5bd51a9">Re: saints + intercessory prayer... question from a non-Catholic lurker</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re: saints + intercessory prayer... question from a non-Catholic lurker : another clarification: The Pope holds the keys of Saint Peter and Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. <strong>When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine for belief as being divinely revealed, and as the teaching of Christ, the doctrine must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.</strong> Regarding saints though: particular canonized saints don't fit into either category-- we are not bound to believe that one particular one is in heaven (except Mary). <strong>However, due to this understanding of obedience and magisterium teaching, caholics tend to trust our Holy Father and the church in all matters regarding faith and morals/ </strong>
  Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
  
  <div>Yes, the few times doctrine has been declared, it is infallible, and must be adhered to.  I was just pointing out that many non-Catholics think that Papal Infalibility means "everything the pope says must be true because he's infallible", and that's not what Catholics believe.</div><div>
  </div><div>I would also agree though, and it's a good point, that we do trust what he says as the leader of The Church. </div>

  

  So this is the miracle that I've been dreaming of...

  

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• lalaith50 member

  

  March 2013

  <span style="font-size:11px;line-height:14px;">[QUOTE]In Response to Re: saints + intercessory prayer... question from a non-Catholic lurker : Yes, the few times doctrine has been declared, it is infallible, and must be adhered to.  I was just pointing out that many non-Catholics think that Papal Infalibility means "everything the pope says must be true because he's infallible", and that's not what Catholics believe. I would also agree though, and it's a good point, that we do trust what he says as the leader of The Church. </span>
  Posted by SquishyMine[/QUOTE]
  yeah, and due to that misunderstanding, they use bad things popes have done or said to try and "prove" that papal infalibility is false. eyeroll.

  

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• tiny speck member

  

  March 2013

  Thanks to those who pointed out this stuff about papal infallibility--- you're right, it is another point that's a bit trickier to get my head around!
  
  Now that I've "surfaced" on this board, I might pop into threads now and then.

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