Questions -- vices and virtues

Resa77 · November 2012

There are some sins that aren't super hot-topics these days. In fact, they're so under-acknowledged that sometimes it's hard to think of them as sins. How dangerous is that?! Likewise, there are plenty of virtues that are under-rated. What are some sins and/or virtues that you think are under-acknowledged?

Resa77 · November 2012

I definitely gluttony is under-discussed. Our society definitely talks about it in terms of physical health, or maybe even mental health, but rarely spiritual health. I mean, do you really think of yourself as sinning when you sit in front of the tv and eat a sleeve of Oreos? I know I don't. Lately I've been considering gluttony more, and realizing that it's so dangerous to look a sin in the face and somewhat ignore it's spiritual harm. It's made me wonder what other sins we somewhat ignore.

As far as virtues, I think a very under-rated virtue these days is true humility. We talk a lot about confidence and self-esteem, and that's fine -- you can be confident with high self-esteem while also being humble! Sometimes it just seems like we don't value humility enough, though.

Calypso1977 · November 2012

the seven deadly sins (the worst ones, right?) seem to be the most overlooked.
Let's think about each one:

Lust: Most think this pertains just to things of a sexual nature, but by definition, "lust" means an intense desire. So if one intensely desires anything it could possibly be defined as lust.

Gluttony: Doesnt just pertain to overeating.

Greed: Pretty straight forward

Envy: Similar in many ways to lust

Anger: Things like grudge holding can easily fall into this category, IMO

Sloth: Most think of this as being a lazy person - i.e., not physically working or laying around watching TV or letting one's weight go. But when i researched this a bit, slacking off on going to Mass, for example, can be sloth.

Pride: probably one of the trickiest and yet the most violated

in terms of virtues, i think modesty is the most overlooked nowadays, especially with how young girls, even 5 or 6, are clothed.

Resa77 · November 2012

Amen to both TXKristan and Calypso!

Greed is one that drives me insane. Somehow Americans seem to have the most skewed view of greed. There's this sense of "I earned it, so it can't possibly be greedy." You know what I mean? I heard a GREAT homily about greed, and how our success belongs to God, no ourselves. And basically the priest was saying that a surgeon might make more money than a janitor, but in God's eyes, that surgeon doesn't deserve a meal more than the janitor. I'm not saying one can't have nice things or something, but rather that if we are blessed with wealth, it's not because we "deserve it" and "earned it," but rather because God blessed us with the ability to earn that money, etc. Am I making any sense??

agapecarrie · November 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_questions-vices-and-virtues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5d6ddb1c-34a9-4694-9986-92cfec4cb378Post:0de934cc-b126-475f-9196-13b846d24f57">Re: Questions -- vices and virtues</a>:
[QUOTE]the seven deadly sins (the worst ones, right?) seem to be the most overlooked. Let's think about each one: Lust: Most think this pertains just to things of a sexual nature, but by definition, "lust" means an intense desire. So if one intensely desires anything it could possibly be defined as lust. Gluttony: Doesnt just pertain to overeating. Greed: Pretty straight forward Envy: Similar in many ways to lust Anger: Things like grudge holding can easily fall into this category, IMO Sloth: Most think of this as being a lazy person - i.e., not physically working or laying around watching TV or letting one's weight go. But when i researched this a bit, slacking off on going to Mass, for example, can be sloth. Pride: probably one of the trickiest and yet the most violated in terms of virtues, i think modesty is the most overlooked nowadays, especially with how young girls, even 5 or 6, are clothed.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

<div>I disagree with the word "lust" definition here. Lust is the opposite of love--- which is using. To love is to give...to will the good of the other. lust, is to deplete a human of their soul worth, to distort their tear apart the body from soul</div><div>
</div><div>There is nothing wrong with desires...they are God given. It's what we do with them, how we direct them, and how we temper them that is the moral action. </div>

Resa77 · November 2012

Carrie, do you think it's possible to lust in a non-sexual way? For instance, would having sex for the sole purpose of procreation be lustful, though not deliberately sexual? Like, if a homosexual man had sex with a woman (or vice versa) in order to conceive a child, but the sexual act was not about giving love or anything, would that be considered lustful, since you're kinda tearing apart the body's reproductive abilities from love-giving? This is a totally weird question but I thought I'd ask!

Riss91 · November 2012

I might be able to answer that - my understanding is that if you are only using sex for procreation, without giving yourself to the other person in love, you are violating the sexual act.

Carrie is right - it's the idea of using another for your pleasure rather than offering yourself that differentiates lust from love.

Calypso1977 · November 2012

purpose of procreation be lustful, though not deliberately sexual? Like, if a homosexual man had sex with a woman (or vice versa) in order to conceive a child, but the sexual act was not about giving love or anything, would that be considered lustful, since you're kinda tearing apart the body's reproductive abilities from love-giving?

ive often wondered that when i hear about these couples that have sex on schedule in order to conceive to a point where often times they feel very mechanical about the whole thing. i mean i get tracking your cycle to optimize your chances, but ive seen cases where women deny sex if its not exactly the right time in order to maximize sperm count.

wehn i went to dictionary.com they used an example of "lust for power".

Resa77 · November 2012

That's another great example -- the couple pinpointing sex in orderto conceive, so much that there's nothing romantic or loving, but rather it's just a chore.

I know that sex for only procreation is wrong, but is that considered lust? You're using someone sexually, though not for sexual pleasure, but rather for conception.

Calypso1977 · November 2012

lusting for a baby. again, you have to look at the defintion of 'lust'.

noun

1. intense sexual desire or appetite.

2. uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness.

3. a passionate or overmastering desire or craving (usually followed by for ): a lust for power.

4. ardent enthusiasm; zest; relish: an enviable lust for life.

5. Obsolete . a. pleasure or delight. b. desire; inclination; wish.

verb (used without object)

6. to have intense sexual desire.

7. to have a yearning or desire; have a strong or excessive craving (often followed by for or after ).

Origin:

before 900; Middle English luste, Old English lust; cognate with Dutch, German lust pleasure, desire; akin to Old Norse lyst desire; see list4

Synonyms

7. crave, hunger, covet, yearn.

Calypso1977 · November 2012

heck, i lust after food sometimes!!

agapecarrie · November 2012

the above is a dictionary "commonly held" understanding. I was referring to the Catholic understanding of the word, especially in regard to sins/vices/virtues.

While disordered desires (or non-tempered) may be sinful too, not arguing that.

However, this issue is one I run into All. The. Time. when teaching TOB. People have the "commonly held" understanding of what "lust" is, equating it to simple sexual desires. Which is nothing wrong with that. I had a woman say "I want my husband to lust after me".

Of course, that is not what we are talking about here. I think the terminology is important. When JPII delivered his audience about "lusting after one's own wife"... a reporter said "if you can't lust after your wife, who can you lust after". I think the correct terms should be used.

monkeysip · November 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_questions-vices-and-virtues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5d6ddb1c-34a9-4694-9986-92cfec4cb378Post:727889c0-f622-4732-ba91-ed9a86fa61f6">Re: Questions -- vices and virtues</a>:
[QUOTE]the above is a dictionary "commonly held" understanding. I was referring to the Catholic understanding of the word, especially in regard to sins/vices/virtues. While disordered desires (or non-tempered) may be sinful too, not arguing that. However, this issue is one I run into All. The. Time. when teaching TOB. People have the "commonly held" understanding of what "lust" is, equating it to simple sexual desires. Which is nothing wrong with that. I had a woman say "I want my husband to lust after me". Of course, that is not what we are talking about here. I think the terminology is important. When JPII delivered his audience about "lusting after one's own wife"... a reporter said "if you can't lust after your wife, who can you lust after". I think the correct terms should be used.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

You're right Carrie, the difference is important.

I have talked to Christians who don't understand what's wrong with lust. They think of it as sexual desire, so why would lusting after your husband or wife be wrong? And they'd be right... sexual desire for your husband or wife isn't wrong.

But lusting is selfish and objectifying. Not just intensely wanting someone. It's wanting them only for what they can do for you... how they can satisfy you.

bibliophile2010 · November 2012

First, I think that sex just for conception could violate the dual purposes of sex just as much as contracepted sex. It would violate the unitive nature of the act and be purely procreative. I have definitely known couples with Trouble TTC for whom it is no longer love giving at times, but just life giving (they hope).

Second, I was going to nominate temperance as my most underrated virtue, which seems to fit in well with what others are saying.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14481a.htm

Resa77 · November 2012

Great one, Biblio! If more people practiced temperance, we'd see a huge decline on many problems in the world today. It's a virtue that affects so many areas of one's life, but unfortunately, it's either underrated, or maybe just underachieved.

lalaith50 · November 2012

[QUOTE]Great one, Biblio! If more people practiced temperance, we'd see a huge decline on many problems in the world today. It's a virtue that affects so many areas of one's life, but unfortunately, it's either underrated, or maybe just underachieved.
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]
Definitely underrated... think about most situations that could involve temperance... our society usually <em>glorifies</em> intemperance! No one looks at the person who is drinking only a minimal amount at the bar and thinks, "wow, I wish I had the self-control to not get drunk!" Or picture the guy who sleeps around with a bunch of different women he's mister "cool/macho." - in many social circles, if you DON'T have sex with anyone in a certain time period, then people think there's something wrong with you! Or picture the serving sizes when you go to most restaurants...

Riss91 · November 2012

Is this thread experiencing technical difficulties? I feel like some posts are not showing up!

lalaith50 · November 2012

(I think there are a bunch of posts here that I can't see... I'm posting this in hopes it will magically make the other posts appear for me!)

scrunchythief · November 2012

This is my first post after lurking for quite a while but I can't resist a good book suggestion!

Peter Kreeft's Back to Virtue is an excellent (and relatively short) book on this topic. It covers the seven deadly sins and how the theological and cardinal virtues, along with the promises in the Beatitudes, combat them. It was great not just at discussion the virtues/sins, but in also describing how to try to help God grow the virtues in our lives.

As for the questions, I think I would say Fortitude for the virtue, since so many people today think of it as only being needed in extreme circumstances, instead of everyday life. For the vice I would probably go with pride since so many other sins flow from it, and it is often times misunderstood.

I do hope to stick around as long as grad school doesn't get too crazy:) This seems like a great board!

lalaith50 · November 2012

Welcome, scrunchy! I love the book suggestion as well as the virtue and vice!

I hope you're able to stick around more!

bibliophile2010 · November 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_questions-vices-and-virtues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5d6ddb1c-34a9-4694-9986-92cfec4cb378Post:9f21fad6-23d1-40a4-9735-c6f66c7159e7">Re: Questions -- vices and virtues</a>:
[QUOTE]Definitely underrated... think about most situations that could involve temperance... <strong>our society usually glorifies intemperance!</strong> No one looks at the person who is drinking only a minimal amount at the bar and thinks, "wow, I wish I had the self-control to not get drunk!" Or picture the guy who sleeps around with a bunch of different women he's mister "cool/macho." - in many social circles, if you DON'T have sex with anyone in a certain time period, then people think there's something wrong with you! Or picture the serving sizes when you go to most restaurants...
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

I was trying to find a good way to say this! Thank you. :)

Resa77 · November 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_questions-vices-and-virtues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5d6ddb1c-34a9-4694-9986-92cfec4cb378Post:0c7a65ec-ae12-4ddf-a7dc-636ff43866a3">Re: Questions -- vices and virtues</a>:
[QUOTE](I think there are a bunch of posts here that I can't see... I'm posting this in hopes it will magically make the other posts appear for me!)
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

(I know...where did they go? Don't tell me TK is eating posts again!)

bibliophile2010 · November 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_questions-vices-and-virtues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5d6ddb1c-34a9-4694-9986-92cfec4cb378Post:0b721d50-479a-474f-aff7-64affac21b01">Re: Questions -- vices and virtues</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Questions -- vices and virtues : (I know...where did they go? Don't tell me TK is eating posts again!)
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

agapecarrie · November 2012

This is the most primitive forum. Why can't the forum be outsourced? I can't stand the fact that the posting order hasn't been corrected in a year.

Resa77 · November 2012

I know! I used to love how the active threads were up top, even though they may have begun days ago (ie: this thread).

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