NWR: Can we talk about Westboro Baptist Church?

Ready2BMrsWade · December 2010

So I was recently shown their church website and I can not believe these people who claim to be the mouth piece of God. and I quote from their website " Didn't Jesus die for everyone? No. Jesus died only for His sheep (John 10). His church (Ephesians 5:25). His elect (I Peter 1:2). If He died for everyone, everyone would go to heaven. All sins of all people would be forgiven. But obviously, all sins aren't forgiven, because people are burning in hell."
Their logically fallacy pains me inside. No, not everyone is going to heaven, BUT "² But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. ²³ For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 6:22/23) There is nothing there about everyone’s sins not being forgiven. Yes, one has to accept the free gift, but a gift, and free it still is! There is horrible, awful, hate-filled, perversion of scripture everywhere on their site. And I don’t get it. So, what do y’all think about them? I’m just interested in what you think about them; hopefully I’m not the only one with issues with their theology.

kellya01 · December 2010

I am personally ashamed that they call themselves "Baptist." Any church that posts signs like "God Hates Fagots" needs an awakening from God about loving the sinner but hating the sin.

I was teaching at a HS last year and there was a gay/lesbian week nationally and our LGBTQ club wanted to celebrate by asking people to be "silent" for the day of silence for teens who have been bullied to the point of suicide, who have been victims of hate crimes, etc ... well, Westboro Baptist Church decided to send "representatives" to the front entrance of the school with their hateful signs. They didn't just have signs about the gay issue -- they had signs about abortion (showing awful pictures of fetuses who had been victims of some procedure gone terribly awry). Not only were the students talking about how offensive their signs were, but it called our Christian Faith into question with students who know that certain teachers are church-goers, etc.

Yes, it started a dialogue, but that dialogue was difficult for me and other christian students and teachers at the school because we first had to set the record straight about Christianity and explain that Westboro "Baptist" church is not representative of all Christians, much less all Baptists.

Their little demonstration was big enough to force the gay and lesbian students who self-identify to actually skip class that day. So not only are they showing an unloving spirit with horrible, HORRIBLE language, but they are causing problems with students with regards to truancy. Several of our students needed counseling that week on how to deal with the controversy. We had a few students at the school who bully LGBTQ students and it only incited them to bully harder. It was a mess.

fpaemp2011 · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_nwr-can-talk-westboro-baptist-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:67628cab-bde2-42e8-a9ea-b4911a375394Post:fd473f4e-5822-4976-b9be-994910857f51">Re: NWR: Can we talk about Westboro Baptist Church?</a>:
[QUOTE]I am personally ashamed that they call themselves "Baptist." ...Westboro "Baptist" church is not representative of all Christians, much less all Baptists.
Posted by kellya01[/QUOTE]

Amen. I don't know why they call themselves Baptist...they don't follow Baptist doctrine at all. There are other religious groups that bug me with their extremes, be it legalism or liberalism, but these guys? They make my blood boil. If you want to protest the war, or the policies of our nation, or blame our nation for the evil in this world, fine, we have the right to that. But picketing a funeral? I was so angry when I heard they were going to picket the funerals of those Amish girls a few years ago...and thankful the radio host gave them a few hours or air time as long as they promised not to go to the funerals. He said, "It's awful for me to give up an hour of my radio show ... but I think it’s worth the sacrifice to keep them away,"
<div><div style="color:#000000;background-color:transparent;text-align:left;text-decoration:none;border:medium none;"><span>
Quote from: <a style="color:#003399;" href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217760,00.html#ixzz17gRvD2s8">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217760,00.html#ixzz17gRvD2s8</a></span></div></div>

Ready2BMrsWade · December 2010

Amish girls?? What have they got against the Amish???? Crazies.... all of them. I am all for freedom of speech and that jazz but this is INSANITY. I mean, seriously, has anyone checked for mental disorders in their leader?

Calypso1977 · December 2010

they were just here in MA to protest an islamic center. they mercifully left before a soldier's body returned from iraq in a neighboring town. many were worried they'd stick around to protest that too.

iamjoesgurl · December 2010

I agree that it is really sad that some people don't see them as radicals and think that all Christians are that crazy/judgemental/hateful. It just gives all Christians a bad reputation when, in fact, we were called to love, not hate and that's what this boils down to.

There are a lot of people who would question whether Christ died for all but I take John 3:16 literally (at the risk of offending anyone, I will not elaborate). I believe that salvation is for anyone who believes that Christ died for our sins and trusts Him as Savior of their lives.

aegrish · December 2010

I get so mad at news outlets and media for showing them on TV! I think they should not receive ANY press, even negative. It's an embarassment to Kansas, the nation and even Christians. The Bible calls us to LOVE one another, they are clearly not Biblically based despite their claims.

mattycam · December 2010

We as Christians are called to spread the good news and win souls to Christ, not push them (unbelievers) away from the truth.

sessionswedding · December 2010

I am angry at WBC (as I refer to them, because I refuse to put "Baptist" or "Church" with them) for what they are doing to Christianity. I am even angrier at the ignorant people who look at WBC and assume they represent all of Christianity and talk down to ME for it. Sure WBC needs to knock it off, but to an extent, so do the people who scoff at us because of them.

heyimbren · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_nwr-can-talk-westboro-baptist-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:67628cab-bde2-42e8-a9ea-b4911a375394Post:72ad3270-90eb-4846-bf89-176fcd3d541a">Re: NWR: Can we talk about Westboro Baptist Church?</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree that it is really sad that some people don't see them as radicals and think that all Christians are that crazy/judgemental/hateful. It just gives all Christians a bad reputation when, in fact, we were called to love, not hate and that's what this boils down to. There are a lot of people who would question whether Christ died for all but I take John 3:16 literally (at the risk of offending anyone, I will not elaborate). I believe that salvation is for anyone who believes that Christ died for our sins and trusts Him as Savior of their lives.
Posted by iamjoesgurl[/QUOTE]

That's what I wanted to point out. There are other denominations that believe that as well, and it's more of a different perspective than anything. I personally don't agree with it, but it isn't just WBC that believes that.

But I agree with what all you girls have said. They have a terrible attitude. It's one thing to stand strong in your beliefs- it's another to just be rude and cruel.

Ready2BMrsWade · December 2010

Okay, I guess I am more unaware of what other denominations believe than I though...but who says (other than WBC) that Christ didn't die for everyone, and how do they justify it scripturally? I have never heard of this and am interested in furthering my education here. Because, I may be no bible scholar (if any of you are here please enlighten me!) but to me verses like Galatians 3:7-9 (Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. ⁸ Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” ⁹ So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.) Would mean ALL nations, the gentiles, being all of us who aren’t messianic Jews, would be saved by faith, not by who you are, but by the choice to have faith, and anyone who so choses to follow. In the OT he also says through the prophet Jeremiah (31:33-34) that he will reveal himself to ALL men ³ “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” There are many many other examples of scripture where it is said that the gospel is shown to all people, so how could Jesus have NOT died for them all. See Colossians 1:21-23, Romans 2:14-16,, Romans 1:18-21. Or how about Romans 3:23, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” and then Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” So if ALL are sinners, and Christ died for sinners then how can he have no died for all? Just my random ponderings.

Sorry about the text changes, copied some of the scripture off another website and this thing is smarter than me to fix it!

heyimbren · December 2010

I agree with you, but a lot of it depends on what your beliefs are on predestination.

I have a friend (whom I think strongly identifies with Calvinist believes, but I could be mistaken on the denomination) and he strongly believes in predestination. He says that if only certain people are predestined to be saved, then it doesn't apply to everyone as such a blanket concept.

I'll see if I can find something he wrote on it to give you more information. But like I said, those aren't personally my beliefs.

AnnaW11 · December 2010

First I want to say that I have no desire to offend anyone, and I wasn't planning on contributing to this conversation because of that, but since some have asked what others believe about these things (predestination, etc.) I thought I would chime in. (Although so I am sort of on topic, let me say that I do not support in any way what WBC has done, I think their actions do not at all further the cause of the gospel and are awful, like PP have stated).

Like many of you ladies, for my whole life I had believed the same things. Predestination was never really discussed at my church and when it was it was condemned. When I moved right before college I went to another church (same denomation) that had some on staff, including the college pastor, who believed in predestination. The way our class is set up we go straigth through a book of the Bible (aka expository preaching for those who are familiar with it), I had never done this. Both in the main service and my college class we would go verse by verse, which gave an in depth picture of Scripture and gave it a cohesiveness, because you see the overall structure and main points of the book. My freshman year we went through Romans, and it was life-changing. I was very opposed to changing my convictions, (I'm quite stubborn someitmes) and I was actually very hostile to what I was being taught and questioned everything. In context, Romans 9 was probably the most convicting/convincing passage I read.

From the topic of John 3:16 I would say (from going through the entire book of John) that one of the frequent themes in the book is that the "world" is a rebellious realm into which God himself entered to redeem. Thus, this verse doesn't mean the same as we often think of being everyone, but rather that God entered into creation to save the world, "the realm"- not necessarily every person.

Some of the other common passages that are used tend to be taken out of context. One that mentions "from the greatest to the least" (not sure if it is the same one already mentioned) comes from a passage discussing how the kingdom of God is not just for the rich and powerful, but is also for the least - the poor, the socially rejected. Thus, God saves all types of people, not just all people.

I know that an internet forum is likely never going to change anyone's mind/heart. But I think these are great questions to be asking and I'm not claiming to know all of the answers. But I do know that since I have seen the beauty of this truth, my view of God has been heightened, I have had increased peace and freedom, and I have seen the fruit of repentence like I hadn't before.

I think that this site gives the basics of what I would believe. I think it is easier to link to because this is such a detailed topic. I would welcome any questions or private messages. I think actually "reformed theology" was cited as one of the most influential ideas in the last few years in one of the major magazines/newspapers, wish I could find the link. (just saying that to say it is widely held by many people including entire denominations- ones tat shouldn't be lumped with WBC and are known for being committed to Biblical inerrancy, etc.)

Here's the link:
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/what-we-believe-about-the-five-points-of-calvinism

Sorry that was massive!

sister2groom · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_nwr-can-talk-westboro-baptist-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:67628cab-bde2-42e8-a9ea-b4911a375394Post:4082f1db-859a-4135-ba1b-b13b43e1c29e">Re: NWR: Can we talk about Westboro Baptist Church?</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree with you, but a lot of it depends on what your beliefs are on predestination. I have a friend (whom I think strongly identifies with Calvinist believes, but I could be mistaken on the denomination) and he strongly believes in predestination. He says that if only certain people are predestined to be saved, then it doesn't apply to everyone as such a blanket concept. I'll see if I can find something he wrote on it to give you more information. But like I said, those aren't personally my beliefs.
Posted by heyimbren[/QUOTE]

I've seen arguments and passages that support both free will and predestination because I've been brought up in a weird smorgasbord of denominations. Since I believe the Bible and believe it doesn't contradict itself, I guess predestination and free will must not contradict one another, although I'm not sure how.

Maybe God knows ahead of time who will accept Him, and then later He calls them. I don't fully understand it and I'm OK with that because while there are facts of which we can be <em>certain </em>(like Jesus' death and resurrection) there are some other less essential points that we won't fully comprehend in this lifetime.

That doesn't mean you need to give up intellectually every time something's a little difficult, but it does mean you need to be humble enough to recognize that our capacity to understand is finite and God is infinite, so not everything has to make sense in terms of our human logic.

I hope that wasn't too preachy, I just was really excited when someone explained that to me so then I didn't get so fired up about proving someone was wrong by proving what I considered to be the opposite.

iamjoesgurl · December 2010

Yes, I was speaking of predestination in my post. I am not a theologian and I agree with Sister that there are things I don't think we are meant to understand. I also don't want to get into a theological debate. But I will share my thoughts on the matter.

Does it really matter if we are predestined to become followers of Christ? If I was not predestined, does that mean that God will turn His back on me after I lived my life in obedience to Him? I believe that Christ died for whosoever believes in Him. I do not look at people and wonder, "Did God predestine him to be a Christ follower?" In the end I believe that we are called to be obedient to God's word and that we are to "go and make disciples of ALL nations".

Finally, the greatest commandments are these - to love Jesus with all our hearts, souls and minds AND to love our neighbor as ourselves. Clearly WBC does not follow the second part of the greatest commandment.

musicalsunlight · December 2010

As PP's said, it hurts my heart to see the hate the WBC spreads across the nation, and to some extent, the world.

heyimbren · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_nwr-can-talk-westboro-baptist-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:67628cab-bde2-42e8-a9ea-b4911a375394Post:d45f45b8-77ed-42a2-a1bb-94d03654bde0">Re: NWR: Can we talk about Westboro Baptist Church?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Can we talk about Westboro Baptist Church? : I've seen arguments and passages that support both free will and predestination because I've been brought up in a weird smorgasbord of denominations. Since I believe the Bible and believe it doesn't contradict itself, I guess predestination and free will must not contradict one another, although I'm not sure how. Maybe God knows ahead of time who will accept Him, and then later He calls them. I don't fully understand it and I'm OK with that because while there are facts of which we can be certain (like Jesus' death and resurrection) there are some other less essential points that we won't fully comprehend in this lifetime. That doesn't mean you need to give up intellectually every time something's a little difficult, but it does mean you need to be humble enough to recognize that our capacity to understand is finite and God is infinite, so not everything has to make sense in terms of our human logic. I hope that wasn't too preachy, I just was really excited when someone explained that to me so then I didn't get so fired up about proving someone was wrong by proving what I considered to be the opposite.
Posted by sister2groom[/QUOTE]

That's basically what I believe as well. I do believe in predestination, but I don't believe it contradicts with free will. I think JoesGurl made some really good points, and I agree with you as well.

But I do think it is important to think about these things and question why you believe what you do believe. That's healthy. But in the case of WBC, they don't seem to question their beliefs and line them up with the Truth.

kelsey+brandon · December 2010

These people make me SO MAD!!!! They're not spreading their message or anything productive. They're just giving Christians a bad name and I just hope that people realize that they are extremists, just like terrorists do not represent all Muslims.

On a side note (since it's on my mind today and I live in Raleigh), they're protesting Elizabeth Edwards' funeral today with signs that say, "Thank God for Breast Cancer" and other atrocities. Because they think she deserved to have her husband be unfaithful and to get breast cancer because she "defiled" her womb by have her two younger children through IVF...it's all just so ridiculous. I was however, very proud of some high school students who started a "campaign" to block and hide these WBC people from the church and the funeral goers.

kellya01 · December 2010

I live in Durham and just saw the news (came home from performing a concert) -- I was shocked that they would have the audacity to have signs like "thank god for breast cancer." Elizabeth Edwards has been through SO MUCH as a wife, as a woman, and as a mother... and she has handled it with grace and with dignity. I cannot imagine being in her shoes and having to deal with a life-threatening illness, a child to die, and a husband to stray and to have the family's name trod in the mud through the press. She is a role model for many, and she is a Christian woman.

WBC has issues with IVF? REALLY? I bet they take ibuprofen when they have a headache. I don't see why they have issues with God blessing people with talents and skills in science. Of course, I also don't understand those people who don't believe in taking medicine, but seriously IVF is just another medical procedure. If God didn't want her to have children, he would have made the IVF fail every time. Obviously that wasn't his will, because God blessed her with children, and several at that.

I'm saddened by WBC and their atrocious behavior and how the press always labels them as "baptist church" just because it is in their name. It has nothing to do with doctrine or the Biblical beliefs with Baptist churches. I would venture to say that the Southern Baptist Convention does NOT sanction the WBC.

NWR: Can we talk about Westboro Baptist Church?

Re: NWR: Can we talk about Westboro Baptist Church?

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