Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later

BiMWaT · June 2010

If you read my next post, you'll see that I agree that younger couples tend to JOP more than older couples; however to me this in no way contributes to the argument of is it or isn't it okay to do. I don't think age has much of an impact on whether people think it is okay or not, but it does have an impact on whether they would do it or not. As you said, it is not necessarily worth it for older couples.

Your post first read, to me, that you were saying immature couples JOP and mature couples don't, and I said that I could be mistaken.

KilleenBride · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_rant-courthouse-wedding-then-real-wedding-later?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:9397ea72-0fa6-4c52-97f0-933f1d17fa50Post:8d619aa5-afc0-46b6-af08-e76623e43834">Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later : I was not being nasty, I was making a simple conjecture. Don't let your defensiveness on this issue cloud your judgment and capacity for calm discussion. I highly doubt an older couple who are both well established in their own right would feel it pressing to do a JOP marriage with the intent to have a "big wedding" later on. When you are independent and self-sufficient the benefits of paid housing, a slight pay increase, medical benefits and commissary privileges are usually just not great enough motivation to set aside your ideal wedding plans in exchange for that dependent ID card. Feel free to prove me wrong and conduct some kind of poll.
Posted by Spunkchin[/QUOTE]

So your saying that only older couples can be well established in their own right and self-sufficient and independent? Also You did more then insinuate that the only reason younger couples JOP is to get benefits? "because according to you only younger couples JOP". You also insinuated that the other poster on here was being immature and defensive about the subject. I am not one to point fingers but it seems like you have also been defensive and honestly a little stuck up but that's just my opinion, I am not trying to bash you for having yours but why do you assume that younger couples or any couple for that matter that JOP's can't be marrying for better reasons then benefits?please answer this? Just because we choose to have a small JOP ceremony then have a "big dress" wedding doesn't mean that we are selfish of benefit hungry or anything, what it does mean is that we would like to marry our FI's, and be able to be called his 'wife", share his name and maybe even start a family and save some money before we put on the "big dress" show. I personally will only spend under $1,000 for my "big dress" day next year because I do not see the point of spending a huge amount of money that could go to a better use like a mortgage payment or a down payment on a dependable car. I grew up going to church and was taught that you should be married in the eyes of god on top of the legal part. Also to the poster that said that we could "just plan a small short notice wedding", well considering all of both of our families are up north and we are in TX it just wouldn't be possible. Our "Big dress" day will be up north with our families at the church I grew up in. I just can't believe that someone would automatically think that age and benefits have anything to do with getting married, however the couple chose to do it. Don't you honestly think that we have better common sense then to think that a "benefit marriage" won't last? My FI is retired soon thanks to being blown up by Ied's 3 times in Iraq
so why would I marry someone for maybe 6months worth of benefits heck I didn't even know about them until he mentioned it after we were already engaged ? I know that I want to spend the rest of my life with this man and if I have to take crap from people because we are JOP first then having "our" day later then so be it. But please don't just put all younger people into a generalization and say that they couldn't be independent.

kyrgyzstan · June 2010

First of all, there are constant rushes to get married on this board for BAH/sep pay/SGLI/insurance. No one was pointing at one specific poster.

Secondly, if you were raised in church, and were raised to believe that you should be married in the eyes of God as well as legally, shouldn't that be first? It would seem the legal part is less important to you, so why have it first, if not for the benefits? I'm asking that honestly, without snark intended. My parents are for real hippies. religious ones. They weren't even going to get legally married, they only celebrate their 'in the eyes of God' anniversary. The only reason they JOPd was so that they could get a loan for the house I grew up in. Back then, you couldn't get a loan if you weren't legally joined. They don't count that wedding, which I think is strange and nihilistic, but I can at least respect that their religious commitment was important to them.

cooper0314 · June 2010

You need to not worry so much about what others on the internet are thinking about your "real" wedding. I mean really...are they going to be invited?? Do they know you and your husband?? I doubt not, so move on and stop stressing. Now as for me, I know plenty of people that have done what you have and it has worked out beautifully. My husband and I, however, waited and had a traditional wedding. All after moving across country because of new orders and going through a deployment. We just found no need to rush it. The military still took care of our belongings since we lived together and when he left for his deployment, we took care of all of his personal affairs before hand and then made sure I had contact with the appropriate people, including chaplains, team support and Ombudsman. So, please don't use the military (orders, deployment, etc) as an excuse for your JOP wedding. Like one Knottie said...the military never forced you to do anything.

Congratulations and best of luck to you both as you plan your "real" wedding. It will be beautiful!

temerityjane · June 2010

Whatever, I'll flat out say it without pussyfooting around - I think it IS an immature kind of thing to do. I think that younger people tend to feel entitled to all of the bells and whistles of a big white wedding, and are unwilling to give up all of those details. They truly believe that their situation is special enough and unique enough to justify a JOP ceremony but also don't believe they shouldn't have to give up everything they're "entitled" to in terms of weddings.

I think it's immature. Period. So yes, it does probably correlate to age.

Though I'm sure every single girl on this board that JOP'd and then had a big wedding really DID have super unique super special circumstances and really is TOTALLY ULTRA mature.

KilleenBride · June 2010

I wish I could get myself to sink down to your level and say what I really want to right now but I can't so I am just going to ask you 1 question. Why do you seem so bitter?

LuluP82 · June 2010

This might be a language/culture issue-- I grew up in Latin America and English is not my first language. But, to me, a "wedding" means celebration of the marriage, not the actual legal paperwork type. For that reason, my wedding will be next year. I am legally married, by a JOP-- that wasn't a wedding. We just went down the two of us and signed papers.

There are people out there who make the JOP their weddings, sure-- because they treat it as a celebration. But I think most people who JOP and then have a big wedding aren't asking for 2 "days," or 2 celebrations-- they are just asking for one.

The same way that I don't think it's okay to tell a second time bride (to a different groom I mean) that she's had her day, and so shouldn't have a shower and a white dress wedding, I don't think it's okay to tell us first time brides that we can't have the tradtional trappings just because we're married, since we never had our "wedding."

That's how I see it anyway. I haven't had a wedding. I would like one. So we're having one. I do understand we're married, by the way. Doesn't change anything.

LuluP82 · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_rant-courthouse-wedding-then-real-wedding-later?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:9397ea72-0fa6-4c52-97f0-933f1d17fa50Post:0ab99936-6f37-4694-8246-a832e7b666b4">Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later</a>:
[QUOTE]Whatever, I'll flat out say it without pussyfooting around - I think it IS an immature kind of thing to do. I think that younger people tend to feel entitled to all of the bells and whistles of a big white wedding, and are unwilling to give up all of those details. They truly believe that their situation is special enough and unique enough to justify a JOP ceremony but also don't believe they shouldn't have to give up everything they're "entitled" to in terms of weddings. I think it's immature. Period. So yes, it does probably correlate to age. Though I'm sure every single girl on this board that JOP'd and then had a big wedding really DID have super unique super special circumstances and really is TOTALLY ULTRA mature.
Posted by temerityjane[/QUOTE]

I think this is a really judgmental, rude attitude. My fiance/husband whatever you want to call him is 33 and I'm 28. We were well-established civilian lawyers for four years of our relationship, and lived together for 2 of those years before he decided to become a JAG and join the USMC. While he was at OCS, I got laid off from my firm job. During this time, we decided that we should get legally married because we were eating through our savings. Trust me, going from having 2 Wall St. lawyers to one Marine and one person working at not-for-profit really, really drastically changes your lifestyle and affects your finances. I actually wasn't thrilled with the idea-- I wanted my big wedding I'd always dreamed of. Our priest actually suggested that we go to the JOP and have our religious ceremony later. Why would we struggle financially and live apart when we didn't have to?

Deciding to JOP first and then have a big wedding later is not an easy decision, or at least, it wasn't for us. It took a lot of thinking, planning, talking etc. to come to the conclusion that it truly was the best option for us at the time. To me, ensuring that you as a couple are on the most solid financial footing you can be isn't "immature"-- it's the opposite, actually. Immature would be to insist on having "your big day," and only your big day, regardless of the circumstances.

temerityjane · June 2010

The immature part isn't the whole financial footing, whatever whatever special circumstances thing. The immature part is not being okay with giving up the big wedding. Immature is insiting on having your big day, even when you're already married, and could have easily planned a very inexpensive, very sweet little ceremony and reception. But of course, everyone's circumstances are super special and super unique, like yours.

Whatever, though - I'm sick of going around and around with this argument. My opinion doesn't affect you. Do what you're going to do. I think it's immature. I think it displays an unwillingness to give up a day in the spotlight. You're already married. I think throwing yourself another wedding, when you're already married, is ridiculous. Period.

BiMWaT · June 2010

I agree with LuluP. We are not asking for two special days. We did the best thing for us, etc., etc.

What I fail to understand is how having a wedding after your JOP is selfish and immature. Sure, there are plenty selfish, immature bridezillas out there, but JOPing and then having a wedding does NOT automatically make you one.

I do not want a bridal shower, and honestly if I could get my family to NOT give me gifts I would. However, whether or not I have my wedding, they will send gifts - it is one of the ways they choose to show their love and excitement for me.

So what am I asking of them? No crazy parties, no gifts...all I'm doing is throwing a party and inviting them to come celebrate with us. How is that immature or selfish? Just because the timing is somewhat untraditional and our legal marriage did not happen the same day as our wedding will does not make me (or any other JOPers for that matter) a selfish, immature person.

Spunkchin · June 2010

Look, I am not judging anyone's choices to proclaim one is better than the other. My observation is merely that I believe the age of the couple correlates with their desire to have two weddings (JOP & "big dress"). Obviously, there will be cases where this isn't true but I'm still willing to bet the majority of two-wedding couples are young. A choice to marry someone, military or not, always involves weighing your options and choosing the route that most benefits you.

Misquote me, put words in my mouth and call me stuck-up if you want, I'm not emotionally invested in your choice which means I don't actually care what you do (how shocking!). I have friends that had one wedding and friends that had two and I love them equally as people and don't believe that either course indicates the future success of a marriage.

Spunkchin · June 2010

Honest Question: Are any of you a "wait until marriage for sex" person? When you JOP will you have sex that night or wait until your "before God" ceremony?

Spunkchin · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_rant-courthouse-wedding-then-real-wedding-later?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:9397ea72-0fa6-4c52-97f0-933f1d17fa50Post:05a045aa-7547-40ed-9d9f-edd9088339ac">Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later</a>:
[QUOTE]I wish I could get myself to sink down to your level and say what I really want to right now but I can't so I am just going to ask you 1 question. Why do you seem so bitter?
Posted by KilleenBride[/QUOTE]
Who is this directed to?

meltoine · June 2010

In response to whomever called me out on having JOP'd before my April "wedding" here's the explanation. Not that I need to justify myself, but it may help you understand my opinion on this subject.

We planned to get married April 10, 2010 since about 2 weeks after we got engaged. To that end, we began our pre-marital counseling and NFP classes and put down deposits on all of our vendors.

Come October we found out that DH was getting stationed in Cairo effective immediately after the wedding. He felt that this necessitated a JOP so that I could go with him. Moving OCONUS with the military is a lot more complicated than moving within CONUS. In addition to in-processing with DEERS and Tricare and moving in together I needed to wait for authorization papers to apply for a diplomatic passport (which takes about 1-2 months), actually apply for the passport (which takes another 3 months or so to process) and then apply for a diplomatic visa, which takes another 3-4 weeks - for a grand total of about 6 months that I would have been in the States after he left for Egypt.

My reaction to this revelation was basically, "that sucks, but it's military life." DH wanted to JOP. We decided that our priest would be the tie breaker. I was under the impression that a JOP first and a church wedding later was against Canon Law, so I was banking on him saying no. We went to talk to him and he told us that it is not, in fact, against Canon Law. The priest actually strongly recommended that we do the JOP. His exact words were, "The first year of marriage is hard enough. There's no need to make it harder by being apart - especially since you've been apart throughout your entire engagement".

When the priest told us that my preference was to re-plan everything for as soon as possible and have one Church wedding. This turned out to not be possible because we hadn't yet fulfilled the requirements to get married in the Church - pre-marital counseling and NFP classes. We could have accelerated the pre-marital counseling, but the NFP classes can't be accelerated because they require observing and charting changes in one's body over a few months to learn to recognize the patterns of one's menstrual cycle.

Basically what it boils down to is we had a two choices: JOP now and have our Church wedding later or go against the advice of our spiritual advisor and wait it out. DH and I had already agreed that we would follow the advice of our priest, so basically I lost that fight. Since we were already having separate legal and religious ceremonies we didn't see the wisdom in losing our vendor deposits or paying to re-print our invitations just because we ended up having two events. As for everything else that goes along with a "big wedding" - my sister decided on her own to throw me a surprise bridal shower just before our April ceremony. I didn't ask for it (no one should) but I accepted the gifts graciously.

I am opposed to anyone saying that they have to JOP because no one is forced to do that. I wasn't - I acquiesced to my husband's and priest's good judgement, though it didn't necessarily line up with mine. I could have stuck it out and insisted we wait. I chose not to. Most people who come on here and talk about their JOP wedding and wanting their big wedding later are doing it for reasons that I don't agree with. If you come on here asking for advice or opinions don't get mad when people don't say what you expect them to.

For the record, I feel perfectly comfortable holding the opinion that I do because I never came on here and asked anyone to condone my choice, nor do I give unsolicited opinions on other people's choices on this matter. Again, my objection is to people who ask for opinions and then get angry when those opinions aren't what they expected.

ETA: Again, not that it's anyone's business, but we are "no sex until marriage people" and we did not sleep together after we JOP'd. We waited for the religious ceremony.

Spunkchin · June 2010

I understand the major hurdles of an OCONUS PCS and feel I would have done the same thing in that situation. Thanks for answering my personal question, Meltoine. I greatly appreciate your adult response to whomever called you out and can see why you're the board mod.

BiMWaT · June 2010

meltoine, I'm sorry that you felt that I was "calling you out." I didn't mean for it to sound that way, if it did; I was just genuinely curious as to why you seemed to be against JOPing when that is in fact what you did.

The problems I see are that people come on here asking for advice about OTHER things and as soon as a JOP is mentioned, everyone forgets what they were actually asking about and jumps down their throats. I'm not saying you personally do this, but many people do.

Also, there may be people who think they were "forced to JOP." I don't hold that opinion, as I stated earlier, and there are a lot of JOPers who do not think they were forced. I was not forced to JOP, but for my FI and I, it was the best option given the circumstances. It just bothers me that when ANYONE JOPs for ANY reason, so many people attack them.

Think of it this way: FI and I were at a point in our relationship where we decided that being together was the best option, for various reasons, much like your priest thought that was the best option for you and your FI. Unfortunately, like you, that would not have been possible without getting married.

I am also perfectly fine with the decision we made, and I do not come on here asking people to back up my choices. However I didn't like the attacking that was going on, so when it is mentioned I try to stick up for people who have decided that JOPing was the best option for them.

tendonhead · June 2010

I think the OP was referring to an earlier post where someone said "before you get flamed I want to let you know it's technically a vow renewal." The poster probably said that because if you go onto any other board such as Etiquette or Snarky Brides with those questions that person would find out really quick what being "jumped on" is all about. This board is a little more understanding of JOPs than the average board and I really think that person was just trying to help so that they would avoid further "flaming" from other boards. I don't think it was meant as a criticism or for JOPers to get defensive. I really think it was to be helpful.

hbs2003 · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_rant-courthouse-wedding-then-real-wedding-later?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:9397ea72-0fa6-4c52-97f0-933f1d17fa50Post:3eabd1e4-876d-4a19-b8ad-71cc8a8c25a1">Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then : thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!! i was a person who posted about a military situation, JOP wedding then a "white dress" wedding (if you will) after. some people were helpful in their responses, pointing out that it can be hurtful to people to imply that a JOP wedding "isn't real" (of course it is!) but some people were downright DISGUSTING. taking bets on me and my marriage, calling me whiny and saying that i wanted my "white princess day". to some people, the "real" part comes from the feeling, the tradition, the religion, etc. which is the case for me. no matter what the circumstance, where we get married, who does it, what papers we sign, our marriage won't feel complete to us until we stand before God and our friends and family and pledge ourselves to each other. that is our choice. i think everyone is entitled to their own feelings and opinions and weddings. we can all do it how we want to. the hurtful things are when people say that JOP weddings are fake, or when the etiquette police tell people that they "aren't allowed" to have their wedding ceremony, and they have to have a "vow-renewal" do what you want!!! there are no rules, only guidelines!
Posted by forrma7[/QUOTE]

well said! i agree, its more about the feeling, the tradtition, and having those memories that you shared your day with your family and friends. I JOP'ed and i am having my wedding next year. if you want to call it a vow renewal, then so be it. not everyone has to call it that, regardless of the fact that technically thats what it is. its your special time to share your relaitonship with those that are close to you, if you want to call it your real wedding then do it. I am. JOP'ing was special for us, and so will our wedding next year. my best friend did the exact same thing and even though they JOP'ed the wedding they had was even more special because nothing is better than watching your bride (married or not) walk down the aisle and saying your vows to each other in front of those closest to you. I dont really understand what the big deal is. if a person wants to call it their "real" wedding then let them. its their life and their wedding and their marriage. let is be special to them no matter what you think. would you want someone coming down on you because you did somehting that wasnt how someone else would do it? is it really that deep to call a bride out over a technicality? i mean how grown up are we here people. get over it and let brides call their day what they want. be supportive. if people come on here and are constantly getting negative feedback that is not helpful and ends up being hurtful, people will not want to come on here anymore. everyone should be able to express their opinions but come on.... .there is a way to do it constructively.

shinxy · June 2010

Back to the OP, I agree that a lot of people are way too judgemental of people's happy moments on these forums. We should come here to share joy, not put each other down. I really expected better from a wedding forum.

catemeg · June 2010

This issue is typically a lot more complicated than either side is making it out to be. A few of you seem to have balanced views, but a lot of you are swinging from left or right field.

First, getting married and having a wedding are not necessarily the same thing. They can be - you can have a JOP wedding, as simple or as elaborate as you want. You can literally sign some papers, say a few words, and leave. But you can also legally get married and have your wedding another day. Conversely, you can certainly have a wedding and not be married legally. If you haven't filled out the appropriate paperwork, then the law (or the military) doesn't see you as married, no matter how many white dresses you've worn.

I have a friend who got married in Jamaica, and when she came back the paperwork was missing a stamp. Thus she had her wedding, but was not married. Then she and her husband went to the courthouse in jeans and sweatshirts, where they had the most anticlimactic experience where they waited in line for 2 hours, signed some papers with a very bored JOP, and left. Thus a marriage without a wedding.

Thus: a wedding does not a marriage make, and a marriage does not a wedding make.

However, can a JOP be a wedding? Absolutely! But if someone really wants to have a day where her Dad walks her down the aisle, with pretty flowers and cake, than I'm cool with that. You can judge her, but in my mind, it won't affect any of us or our marriages, so it's not really worth judging.

On the flip side, young girls do tend to rush into marriage with military men. They don't want to be apart (um, you're marrying into the MILITARY - you're going to be apart at times!) or they want the benefits/additional income. We've all seen them on base, the 17 year olds with the rings on their finger, and I just want to shake some of the ones who look super young and tell them to go back to high school and get a college degree - they'll make a lot more money than the pittance they add to salaries for dependents in the military!

Ultimately your reason for JOP'ing is your business. If you have a "white wedding" later, I would hope you'd at least let your guests know you had already gotten married and this was to celebrate and confirm (sounds better than 'renew' with the same meaning) your vows to each other in front of family and friends. Keeping secrets doesn't sit right with me, especially about something this important and life-changing. I would go so far as to say having a "white wedding" without letting your family and friends know you're married is definitely lying to them. As long as you approach the whole process honestly, confidently, and mutually happy with your decision, then good luck!

LuluP82 · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_rant-courthouse-wedding-then-real-wedding-later?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:9397ea72-0fa6-4c52-97f0-933f1d17fa50Post:35c1ab13-a24e-401a-b518-658ed3884f12">Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later</a>:
[QUOTE]In response to whomever called me out on having JOP'd before my April "wedding" here's the explanation. Not that I need to justify myself, but it may help you understand my opinion on this subject. We planned to get married April 10, 2010 since about 2 weeks after we got engaged. To that end, we began our pre-marital counseling and NFP classes and put down deposits on all of our vendors. Come October we found out that DH was getting stationed in Cairo effective immediately after the wedding. He felt that this necessitated a JOP so that I could go with him. Moving OCONUS with the military is a lot more complicated than moving within CONUS. In addition to in-processing with DEERS and Tricare and moving in together I needed to wait for authorization papers to apply for a diplomatic passport (which takes about 1-2 months), actually apply for the passport (which takes another 3 months or so to process) and then apply for a diplomatic visa, which takes another 3-4 weeks - for a grand total of about 6 months that I would have been in the States after he left for Egypt. My reaction to this revelation was basically, "that sucks, but it's military life." DH wanted to JOP. We decided that our priest would be the tie breaker. I was under the impression that a JOP first and a church wedding later was against Canon Law, so I was banking on him saying no. We went to talk to him and he told us that it is not, in fact, against Canon Law. The priest actually strongly recommended that we do the JOP. His exact words were, "The first year of marriage is hard enough. There's no need to make it harder by being apart - especially since you've been apart throughout your entire engagement". When the priest told us that my preference was to re-plan everything for as soon as possible and have one Church wedding. This turned out to not be possible because we hadn't yet fulfilled the requirements to get married in the Church - pre-marital counseling and NFP classes. We could have accelerated the pre-marital counseling, but the NFP classes can't be accelerated because they require observing and charting changes in one's body over a few months to learn to recognize the patterns of one's menstrual cycle. Basically what it boils down to is we had a two choices: JOP now and have our Church wedding later or go against the advice of our spiritual advisor and wait it out. DH and I had already agreed that we would follow the advice of our priest, so basically I lost that fight. Since we were already having separate legal and religious ceremonies we didn't see the wisdom in losing our vendor deposits or paying to re-print our invitations just because we ended up having two events. As for everything else that goes along with a "big wedding" - my sister decided on her own to throw me a surprise bridal shower just before our April ceremony. I didn't ask for it (no one should) but I accepted the gifts graciously. I am opposed to anyone saying that they have to JOP because no one is forced to do that. I wasn't - I acquiesced to my husband's and priest's good judgement, though it didn't necessarily line up with mine. I could have stuck it out and insisted we wait. I chose not to. Most people who come on here and talk about their JOP wedding and wanting their big wedding later are doing it for reasons that I don't agree with. If you come on here asking for advice or opinions don't get mad when people don't say what you expect them to. For the record, I feel perfectly comfortable holding the opinion that I do because I never came on here and asked anyone to condone my choice, nor do I give unsolicited opinions on other people's choices on this matter. Again, my objection is to people who ask for opinions and then get angry when those opinions aren't what they expected. ETA: Again, not that it's anyone's business, but we are "no sex until marriage people" and we did not sleep together after we JOP'd. We waited for the religious ceremony.
Posted by meltoine[/QUOTE]

In our situation, our priest also suggested that we go with the JOP and then later on have our church wedding. For many of the reasons you mentioned. He said exactly the same thing, that our lives would be hard enough without adding the additional complications of being unmarried in the military. He also said the Church looked at civil weddings and living together essentially the same way, so that it wouldn't change anything for us (since we already lived together at the time we were engaged).

catemeg · June 2010

The one thing that does bother me is when someone is legally married (JOP) but insists on calling their husband a "fiance" since they haven't had their "white wedding" day yet (I do not call it that to insult it, but rather to differentiate).

See, that I can see being very offensive to people who had their wedding with a JOP. You're saying you aren't married - you ARE married, you just haven't had a wedding.

LuluP82 · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_rant-courthouse-wedding-then-real-wedding-later?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:9397ea72-0fa6-4c52-97f0-933f1d17fa50Post:1dfdbeb2-eb49-499a-8729-73db17193fcf">Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later</a>:
[QUOTE]This issue is typically a lot more complicated than either side is making it out to be. A few of you seem to have balanced views, but a lot of you are swinging from left or right field. First, getting married and having a wedding are not necessarily the same thing. They can be - you can have a JOP wedding, as simple or as elaborate as you want. You can literally sign some papers, say a few words, and leave. But you can also legally get married and have your wedding another day. Conversely, you can certainly have a wedding and not be married legally. If you haven't filled out the appropriate paperwork, then the law (or the military) doesn't see you as married, no matter how many white dresses you've worn. I have a friend who got married in Jamaica, and when she came back the paperwork was missing a stamp. Thus she had her wedding, but was not married. Then she and her husband went to the courthouse in jeans and sweatshirts, where they had the most anticlimactic experience where they waited in line for 2 hours, signed some papers with a very bored JOP, and left. Thus a marriage without a wedding. Thus: a wedding does not a marriage make, and a marriage does not a wedding make. However, can a JOP be a wedding? Absolutely! But if someone really wants to have a day where her Dad walks her down the aisle, with pretty flowers and cake, than I'm cool with that. You can judge her, but in my mind, it won't affect any of us or our marriages, so it's not really worth judging. On the flip side, young girls do tend to rush into marriage with military men. They don't want to be apart (um, you're marrying into the MILITARY - you're going to be apart at times!) or they want the benefits/additional income. We've all seen them on base, the 17 year olds with the rings on their finger, and I just want to shake some of the ones who look super young and tell them to go back to high school and get a college degree - they'll make a lot more money than the pittance they add to salaries for dependents in the military! Ultimately your reason for JOP'ing is your business. If you have a "white wedding" later, I would hope you'd at least let your guests know you had already gotten married and this was to celebrate and confirm (sounds better than 'renew' with the same meaning) your vows to each other in front of family and friends. Keeping secrets doesn't sit right with me, especially about something this important and life-changing. I would go so far as to say having a "white wedding" without letting your family and friends know you're married is definitely lying to them. As long as you approach the whole process honestly, confidently, and mutually happy with your decision, then good luck!
Posted by catemeg[/QUOTE]

You said this so much more eloquently than I could have, but it's exaclty what my point is-- You can be married without a wedding and you can have a wedding and not be married (as in the case of your friend). Marriage, to me, implies legality-- the marriage license signed and sealed and filed with the court. A wedding, on the other hand, is a party, a celebration of the marriage-- it is entirely possible to have a marriage followed by a wedding after some time. Is it ideal? No. Was it my first choice? No. But under my personal circumstances, it was definitely the best choice.

I'm not keeping secrets from anybody who matters-- everyone who is invited to the wedding either already knows or will know about our JOP (we're telling people as we see them/talk to them, and as we're not inviting anyone we don't regularly speak with, it won't be an issue). I definitely refer to him as my husband (except for people who I think it would be too complicated to explain to, such as the lady I tried on wedding dresses with-- it's not that I'm hiding it, per se-- I just don't think it really matters, in her case). It's not me being delusional in thinking my husband isn't my husband because our JOP didn't count or something like that-- it's just me thinking it's unecessary information for strangers. By the same token, I'm "engaged" on facebook-- not because I'm hiding it, really-- just because I feel that the 400+ acquaintances I have on facebook who I haven't spoken with since law school/college/high school or before and who definitely will NOT be invited to the wedding really don't need to know my personal business and judge.

We saved some things for our religious wedding ceremony (I call it that, as opposed to the civil ceremony-- that's how I differentiate)-- we didn't exchange vows or rings, for example.
If our families are fine with it, our close friends are fine with it, our priest is fine with it, and we're fine with it-- I really don't think it should matter to anybody else. And if someone does receive a wedding invite and is offended bc they don't think it's really a wedding-- no one is making you attend.

And finally-- to the gift-grabby comments-- I really, really don't understand those. I mean, weddings are freaking expensive. I can't imagine someone inviting someone to one just to get a gift-- it's much easier just to save the money and buy whatever the person is giving you yourself, no? People-- well most people-- have weddings to celebrate their marriages with people they love. Not for gifts!

(special caveat-- I do think in instances when ppl send out hundreds of invites to, say, a destination wedding and fully expect and budget for only a handful to come, it could be a gift grab, I suppose...but again, that person's choice to send a gift.)

TriSaratops10 · June 2010

I agree with temerityiane & wish & pretty much all that they have been saying - I think the biggest problem I have with this whole issue is the "moral relativism."

That somehow because it's "right" for a couple for whatever reason then it makes it ok to have a JOP wedding and their pretty princess wedding. Since I don't post much here I'll preface this by saying that I'm in the Army as well as my FI, we could have had a JOP wedding which would have made things MUCH easier for us, but we didn't.

I also have a brother who is in the Army and who had a JOP wedding in Nov '09 and didn't tell my family until April '10 - meanwhile I go dress shopping & wedding planning with the girl (my SISTER-in-law) for her pretty princess day in January. Now, only the immediate families know and that is how they intend to keep it; I REALLY disagree with this because I feel like it is lying and like temerit said, immature.

I don't really have a problem with people having a JOP then having a VR or a convalidation (a Catholic term for a religious wedding when a couple is already legally married) - at least they are being honest to themselves and to their guests that they are married.

I think it does show that the wedding is more important than the marriage when couples do this; why aren't you celebrating your marriage, why does it have to be the wedding that's the important part?

A question to ponder: if God forbid you get a divorce before your real wedding, is it not a real divorce because you didn't have your real wedding?

ETA - grammar

Revenwyn · June 2010

You are wrong. Some people HAVE to JOP it.

While we were not military, my family did not approve of my choice of husband (they wanted to arrange one for me) and KICKED ME OUT OF THE HOUSE for continuing my relationship. We'd been long distance for 4 and a half years until he finally moved to my area. Now, since my man was disabled, he couldn't work, and my family had not allowed me to leave the house in order to work. This made me homeless when I was kicked out. I looked into all kinds of options but the only women's shelters were for physically battered women or women with children. So my then-fiance moved out (he had been living with someone who would not allow me to live there) and we JOP'd on the little bit of money we had so that we would be married living under a bridge instead of unmarried and therefore sinning according to my family in the worst way possible.

Since we JOP'd, my family has decided that they support our marriage (since divorce is an even worse sin) and said they would support an actual wedding. Go figure.

God has blessed us, we're not homeless any longer and I am going to university so that I can help support the two of us.

We're planning our ceremony for August 28th, 6 years to the date and day of the week that we became a couple. To us it is important, as we did not get to have any of our friends or family at our JOP, and we feel the need to have witnesses that we know to the vows that we have made. We have friends from when we met who will be coming, as well as one branch of my family, and some of his as well.

kyrgyzstan · June 2010

Nope, sorry, you did not *have* to. I know you felt you did, and I can understand why you chose to.

I am in the process of applying to be an Officer in the Marine Corps. SO is enlisted. We fell in love knowing that we would either have to get married before my theoretical commission, or break up.

I would break up before I would JOP. I believe a thoughtful engagement period is necessary. You were in the same position I would be in if we don't get married. JOP or break up. You chose to JOP.

catemeg · June 2010

This is all semantics. No one "has" to get married, but sometimes people have dreams that due to scheduling or financial reasons cannot be reality. Therefore in order to get married, they have to JOP. Or have a very basic ceremony, if they are religious, and can convince a priest/rabbi to do it without a donation to the church/temple.

Some people have more desperate situations than others, and to the poster who was homeless, I am glad you are no longer homeless and do not envy you that difficult decision and tragic situation. It sounds like you've had a tough road.

If someone wants to have a vow renewal/ 'white wedding' later, then really it's between them and their significant other and their families. I only look side-eye'd at the situation if they JOP and then claim they're not married.

aggielaura09 · June 2010

This has been very helpful for me... My FI and I have moved our wedding three times because of his orders. We planned the wedding and then he received his orders. He is wanting to go to the JP before he leaves training. The Col.'s wife at his ROTC program at A&M was actually who gave us the idea/suggestion. My FI thinks it would be helpful because when we get back from our honeymoon, we'd be able to move in and have everything taken care of.

One of my many many concerns about this was what my family would think. But surprisingly my family thinks it's a great idea.

Everyone's posts have been helpful to see the many different points of views on the subject and will help us to make a decision on what is best for us.

mkhejlik · July 2010

Hi this is the first time I've responded to a post but I felt I had to as this is really very funny to m! My husband and I had a JOP type wedding - a double by proxy through the state of Montana!! Why - I'm stationed in Germany and he is American but plays professional soccer so is not affliated with the military (except for me

I came back from our MRE (mission rehearsal exercise) and we had the marriage license in the mail! We celebrate that as our first anniversary. We did this because I was going on my second short notice deployment to Afghanistan with much travel involved and, honestly, I wanted the military to have to take care of my husband while I was gone! We were planning on having one a few months after I deployed but that changed when our out of the blue deployment happened!

I traveled a lot and to some nasty areas (in OEF) and wanted the assurance of knowing that if my hubby became sick or got injured (which he did both - nasty swine flu, was hit by a car on his bike, and fractured his heel playing) that I could go home to see him in Germany. If we weren't married, I wouldn't have had that assurance (even though I didn't use it).

Our actual wedding is in three weeks. And yes, this is our wedding. I didn't care about having one but, in all honesty, weddings are for the families. So, we are having one for our families to get together and party! Thats pretty much it.

Girls, support each other. So many military spouses eat each other alive with gossip and their husband's rank-wearing and all of that just makes our jobs so much more difficult! Trust me, those commanders have enough to worry about without having the spouses act like junior high school girls. Do your husbands a favor, be nice to one another, don't harass his commander when they have to punish him for doing something stupid, and yes, support him and the miltary lifestyle! You chose to marry him - accept the lifestyle. My husband is the most supportive and it makes my unit so much better to see the commander's husband supporting everything that we do!

Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later

Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then &quot;real wedding' later

Choose Another Board

Search Boards

Rant-Courthouse wedding then &quot;real wedding' later

Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then &amp;quot;real wedding' later

Choose Another Board

Search Boards

Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later

Re: Rant-Courthouse wedding then "real wedding' later