controversial question....

aegrish · December 2010

This is definitely the only board I feel comfortable posting this on so I hope you can help me!My FI & family are pro-marriage, but I have gay neighbors (girls) that are having a destination ‘marriage’ ceremony. We’re not inviting each other to our weddings since we’re both having smaller DW’s, but they gave me a gift (and are always very kind to me) so I feel like I should do the same for them. However I don’t want to give them the impression that I support their lifestyle choice. Does giving them a wedding gift do that? I have not been very open with them about my beliefs and pro-marriage stance, but they may already know from my FB page…

azdancer8 · December 2010

I think it would be appropriate to give a gift. A wedding present does not necessarily say that you support the lifestyle - it says congratulations during an exciting time for them. That's my opinion, anyways (and what I would do if my lesbian friend decided she was going to marry her partner, even though I would disagree with her lifestyle choice).

kellya01 · December 2010

I have an uncle who is gay and just because he chooses to participate in that lifestyle does not mean that we wouldn't get a Christmas or Birthday present or card for him. I think you can give your neighbors a gift without sending any message of supporting their lifestyle. Just put a little note with the gift like "congratulations" if you want.

Personally, my opinion on the matter would be different if you are asking about attending their civil union service. I have always believed that if you attend a wedding (etc), you are signing the guest book that you support it. So, definitely would say "don't go" but I don't think you are limited as far as giving them a gift, especially since they got something for you.

heyimbren · December 2010

I agree with Kelly, I think. Plenty of people I know make lifestyle choices that I don't agree with, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't ever get them a gift. If that's your sole reason for not buying a gift, I wouldn't use that as the only reason. If you weren't invited to the wedding, then you don't have to buy a gift even if they bought one for you. It isn't tit-for-tat that way. But if you genuinly want to give them a gift then I don't see an issue.

At the very least, send them a nice thank-you card.

aegrish · December 2010

azdancer & Kellya I definitely will give them a gift now thanks for the advice! I just didn't want to feel like I was being hypocritcal doing so. Maybe I can make it more of a christmas gift too...

iamjoesgurl · December 2010

It seems to me that if you don't approve of their choice to marry, you would not celebrate it by congratulating them with a gift.

aegrish · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:845d654e-9f9a-489a-b44a-6ccd2bfe6d2b">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]It seems to me that if you don't approve of their choice to marry, you would not celebrate it by congratulating them with a gift.
Posted by iamjoesgurl[/QUOTE]

Part of me does feel this way...that's why I am thinking about giving it as a 'christmas' gift. I dont think it'd be appropriate to give them a congrats card either way.

musicalsunlight · December 2010

I don't think that it would be condoning the marriage, I think it is a very friendly and kind gesture, especially if you utilize it as a way to give a Christmas gift as well.

sister2groom · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:845d654e-9f9a-489a-b44a-6ccd2bfe6d2b">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]It seems to me that if you don't approve of their choice to marry, you would not celebrate it by congratulating them with a gift.
Posted by iamjoesgurl[/QUOTE]

You're in a tough situation, but I agree with iamjoes. Also, if you're uncomfortable giving them a wedding gift, then rewrapping it in Christmas wrapping paper is almost hypocritical (that's not the word I'm trying to think of, but almost). I would give maybe a little nicer version of what you might normaly give neighbors for Christmas, candle or an ornament or something.

Whatever you do, send a very gracious thank you card for their gift.

kellya01 · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:845d654e-9f9a-489a-b44a-6ccd2bfe6d2b">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]It seems to me that if you don't approve of their choice to marry, you would not celebrate it by congratulating them with a gift.
Posted by iamjoesgurl[/QUOTE]

<div>I think iamjoesgurl shared the thought several us probably had upon first reading the post. I commend anyone for sharing their personal beliefs on such a public internet forum, and this board is generally good about being considerate of each other, which I really, really appreciate. </div><div>
</div><div>It's hard to know what I would do in your shoes -- e.g, if my uncle decided he was going to "marry" (quotations for obvious reasons) a male companion, we would not go to his wedding, and I just don't know if I would get him a gift. I am fairly certain he's going to give me a wedding gift, so that's what I'm trying to imagine myself as if I was in your shoes. HMM... Tough call. </div><div>
</div><div>Your reason for not gifting: you don't support their "marriage" and wouldn't want to represent yourself in a hypocritical way. </div><div>
</div><div>Your reason for gifting: you feel obligated since they gave you a gift for your wedding</div><div>
</div><div>I would like to point out some biblical references:</div><div>
</div><div>Matthew 7:1-5, ESV (I skipped a little for time's sake)</div><div>Judge not, that you not be judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged ... First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.</div><div>
</div><div>Luke 17:3, NIV</div><div>So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.</div><div>
</div><div>One of the things I hear a lot from my pastor is the following:</div><div>If a person is sinning against God, and it is not against the law of the people (such as homosexuality) -- only IF they are a member of our church body do we as Christians have the right to speak to them about their sins. </div><div>
</div><div>Being that these ladies are your neighbors, and probably don't attend / members of the church you are (I'm assuming a lot here), you can't really pass judgment on their choice to sin. In God's eyes, all sins are equal and the rule about "glass houses" would come into play here. I think they might take your lack of a gift (however small it may be), as a sign of disapproval and / or rebuking.</div><div>
</div><div>It's a fine line you would have to walk, but I would get them something like a gift card to a restaurant or somewhere you know that they would appreciate. Making sure to stay FAR away from a gift from a wedding registry or something else that screams "this is a wedding gift." Consider it a Christmas gift if you want, and a thank you note is definitely needed. </div><div>
</div><div>Praying for wisdom for you!! </div>

musicalsunlight · December 2010

Kellya01--- You said what I was trying to say, only in a much more eloquent way.

kellya01 · December 2010

aw, thanks musicalsunlight! When I type on TK on Fridays, I tend to think more clearly... not as much going on in my head!!! :-)

aegrish · December 2010

Kellya & Musical I agree with both of you. And yes I'm not going to go to BB&B to get them a registry or household gift. I definitely want to return their kindess with a gift, but one that's appropriate and does not infer that I support a 'marriage' (be it legal or non-legal). Thanks for the gift card ideas and prayers!

GJones27 · December 2010

I would give them a gift. Even if you don't support their lifestyle choices, we are all fallen creatures and have committed sins. If you don't give a gift, I fear you'll regret it for perhaps hurting their feelings. I think gay couples struggle enough from discrimination, and they may feel hurt if they don't even have the acceptance of a friend.

You have probably given wedding gifts to your heterosexual couple friends even though they have probably slept with one another and lived together before marriage, which may go against your beliefs. Ultimately, we have to separate caring for people with their personal lifestyle choices. In the meantime, I would pray about the issue to see what to do. But this is my opinion as an Orthodox Christian who grew up in San Francisco.

sister2groom · December 2010

GJones: I think the issue is not whether or not to be friends with these women, because you should by all means love your neighbor especially when they're literal neighbors:)) but rather whether you should give a gift that directly celebrates something you do not agree with.

There is no controversy here about whether or not to give them birthday or Christmas gifts but rather whether you want to give them something that would be celebrating (and therefore presumably approving, because you don't celebrate something you don't approve) their marriage. And while I agree you should try not to hurt people's feeling or offend them, sometimes people are just offended by the beliefs you hold or positions you take and you can't compromises your beliefs just to spare someone's feelings.

I also believe a wedding gift for a heterosexual wedding between those that have slept together before marriage is not the same thing at all because a wedding gift does not celebrate them sleeping together, but rather celebrates their marriage.

aegrish · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:55950c93-f37e-4268-86ba-1ae2fa3ca48b">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]GJones: I think the issue is not whether or not to be friends with these women, because you should by all means love your neighbor especially when they're literal neighbors:)) but rather whether you should give a gift that directly celebrates something you do not agree with. There is no controversy here about whether or not to give them birthday or Christmas gifts but rather whether you want to give them something that would be celebrating (and therefore presumably approving, because you don't celebrate something you don't approve) their marriage. And while I agree you should try not to hurt people's feeling or offend them, <strong>sometimes people are just offended by the beliefs you hold or positions you take and you can't compromises your beliefs just to spare someone's feelings</strong>. I also believe a wedding gift for a heterosexual wedding between those that have slept together before marriage is not the same thing at all because a wedding gift does not celebrate them sleeping together, but rather celebrates their marriage.
Posted by sister2groom[/QUOTE]

Sister I agree with you, and esp with the bold part. That's what I'm trying to avoid, without backing down from my beliefs.

GJones27 · December 2010

I understand. It is important to live by one's beliefs. I don't mean to criticize or anything.

I do believe that if Jesus grew up in the modern day instead of 2000 years ago, I don't think he would be as bothered by giving a present to a gay couple as those abiding by the strict rules. I mean, he hung out with thieves and prostitutes, and those around him criticized him a lot for that because it sent the message that he condoned their lifestyles or something. But I think what stands is his central message: love and compassion. But that's just my personal beliefs.

Again, I'm not judging here or anything. I'm just sharing a personal opinion, and it may differ from the traditional line. I know it is a difficult issue, and I hope you decide on something that you believe is right. You're a good and thoughtful person, as you're trying hard to do the right thing. :-)

ravenray · December 2010

I don't post on here often but I do feel compelled to offer you some advice. Keep in mind it is just that, advice.

I think you should send them a wedding gift. If you haven't stood on your soap box yet to them they won't understand why you didn't send them a wedding gift. By sending them a wedding gift you aren't saying that you support their union (which is wrong I know) but that you value them as a friend enough to look past your belief in what they do is wrong. I have a few gay friends. Are the wrong? Absolutely. Would I get them a wedding gift? Ya. I feel that you would be celebrating the friendship not their "marriage." If you haven't told them you don't support what they practice, imagine how hurt they might be when they get a Christmas gift instead of a wedding gift (since they sent you one unless you don't have the money should send one back). Christ calls us to love everyone. I think you might do some significant damage to your relationship if you make this your hill to tell them you don't support what they do. Just my thoughts. I will pray for you that God give you wisdom in this matter.

loves2shop4shoes · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:7ee3ce25-38ce-4310-87b9-9d2a1b4f884d">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't post on here often but I do feel compelled to offer you some advice. Keep in mind it is just that, advice. I think you should send them a wedding gift. If you haven't stood on your soap box yet to them they won't understand why you didn't send them a wedding gift. By sending them a wedding gift you aren't saying that you support their union (which is wrong I know) but that you value them as a friend enough to look past your belief in what they do is wrong. <strong>I have a few gay friends. Are the wrong? Absolutely. </strong>Would I get them a wedding gift? Ya. I feel that you would be celebrating the friendship not their "marriage." If you haven't told them you don't support what they practice, imagine how hurt they might be when they get a Christmas gift instead of a wedding gift (since they sent you one unless you don't have the money should send one back). Christ calls us to love everyone. I think you might do some significant damage to your relationship if you make this your hill to tell them you don't support what they do. :/ Just my thoughts. I will pray for you that God give you wisdom in this matter.
Posted by ravenray[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>It's so sad to know that people like you exist in modern society.</div><div>
</div><div>Who are you to judge if they're wrong? Are you God? Do you sin?</div><div>
</div><div>I understand that Leviticus speaks against Homosexuality...but really, if you're going to be so literal about the Bible, do you think it's perfectly acceptable to severely beat one's slave? According to Exodus 21:20-22, as long as a slave gets up a few days after a beating, this is acceptable. Would you agree? I mean, the Bible says it is, so what makes one passage more appropriate than another? </div><div>
</div><div>If you're going to use the Bible as justification to further your own beliefs about modern society, you can't just pick and choose which passages are enforceable.</div><div>
</div><div>Just food for thought.</div><div>
</div>

aegrish · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:7ee3ce25-38ce-4310-87b9-9d2a1b4f884d">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't post on here often but I do feel compelled to offer you some advice. Keep in mind it is just that, advice. I think you should send them a wedding gift. If you haven't stood on your soap box yet to them they won't understand why you didn't send them a wedding gift. By sending them a wedding gift you aren't saying that you support their union (which is wrong I know) but that you value them as a friend enough to look past your belief in what they do is wrong. I have a few gay friends. Are the wrong? Absolutely. Would I get them a wedding gift? Ya. I feel that you would be celebrating the friendship not their "marriage." If you haven't told them you don't support what they practice, imagine how hurt they might be when they get a Christmas gift instead of a wedding gift (since they sent you one unless you don't have the money should send one back). Christ calls us to love everyone. I think you might do some significant damage to your relationship if you make this your hill to tell them you don't support what they do. :/ Just my thoughts. I will pray for you that God give you wisdom in this matter.
Posted by ravenray[/QUOTE]

thanks ravenray. I see your perspective as well. I do want to show them I value their friendship and yes I constantly remind myself too that Christ calls us to love one another.

FutureMrsBarron2011 · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:7ee3ce25-38ce-4310-87b9-9d2a1b4f884d">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't post on here often but I do feel compelled to offer you some advice. Keep in mind it is just that, advice. I think you should send them a wedding gift. If you haven't stood on your soap box yet to them they won't understand why you didn't send them a wedding gift. By sending them a wedding gift you aren't saying that you support their union (which is wrong I know) but that you value them as a friend enough to look past your belief in what they do is wrong. I have a few gay friends. Are the wrong? Absolutely. Would I get them a wedding gift? Ya. I feel that you would be celebrating the friendship not their "marriage." If you haven't told them you don't support what they practice, imagine how hurt they might be when they get a Christmas gift instead of a wedding gift (since they sent you one unless you don't have the money should send one back). Christ calls us to love everyone. I think you might do some significant damage to your relationship if you make this your hill to tell them you don't support what they do. :/ Just my thoughts. I will pray for you that God give you wisdom in this matter.
Posted by ravenray[/QUOTE]

Good advice

marinabreeze · December 2010

I am in the camp of giving the couple a wedding gift. While I think it's okay to stand by your convictions, I think it's also proper to pick and choose your battles, and think about if your actions will bring them closer to Christ or further away from Him.

Considering that in much of American Christendom, many have issues/disapprove of homosexuality, choosing not to give a gift based on their orientation/lifestyle would seem to move this couple (if they aren't Christian...keep in mind that gay Christians do exist) further away from being open to learning about HIm. I'm of the belief that the message of Christ is what we as Christians should focus on. We cannot expect people who do not know Him to live by HIs rules, and so I don't think it's appropriate decide the extent of our kindness to others based on whether their lifestyle meets approval by biblical standards as you or I interpret them.

Jennifer&Nate · December 2010

I think not sending them a congrats gift/card will hurt their feelings and your friendship/witnessing power more than cause them to rethink their choices. Just my 2 cents.

MrsTucker2011 · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:845d654e-9f9a-489a-b44a-6ccd2bfe6d2b">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]It seems to me that if you don't approve of their choice to marry, you would not celebrate it by congratulating them with a gift.
Posted by iamjoesgurl[/QUOTE]

I feel this too. Perhaps instead of sending them a 'congratulatory' gift which says "Hey! Here's a gift for your <em>marriage</em>" maybe send them a 'housewarming' gift. Then you're returning the thoughtfulness gift, without reference to a touchy subject.

aegrish · December 2010

Thanks I have read through each and every response and I think they are all good points and offer Christian perspectives in some way or another. I am going to continue to pray over this but right now I feel like giving them a gift without the mention of 'marriage' in a card or note is the way to go.

Calypso1977 · December 2010

if a woman had a baby out of wedlock, and you dont support sex outside of marriage, would you still give a baby gift? i think you probably would, and wouldnt think twice about whether or not giving a baby gift sends a message that you support out of wedlock pregancy/pre-marital sex.

so based on that logic, i would probably give the couple a gift.

jenn.daniel · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:20fcb001-9e0f-43e6-bc72-834b0b0394ba">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>if a woman had a baby out of wedlock, and you dont support sex outside of marriage, would you still give a baby gift? i think you probably would, and wouldnt think twice about whether or not giving a baby gift sends a message that you support out of wedlock pregancy/pre-marital sex.</strong> so based on that logic, i would probably give the couple a gift.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

This has always confused me. Everyone talks so much about being opposed to premartital sex, and then when an aquantence has a baby before marriage they still seem so happy about the baby. Assuming no immaculate conception, there must have been sex to produce a baby. Seems hypocritical to me. If babies are ok, how is the sex so wrong? FI and I decided to have premarital sex b/c WE don't think it's wrong, and that's based on our own interpretatios.

On the other hand, when I read the Bible, it looks to me like homosexuality is a sin. The Bible is God's Word, and it's up to God to decide if it's wrong. I'm not here to judge, nor can I read the Bible in the original language (I distrust translations). Sure, my simple understanding tells me homosexuality is wrong, but as a human, I can't be sure. I would probably give a gift in support of their happiness.

And anyway, we're all sinners. We aren't not going to give FBIL a Christmas gift b/c he covets the neighbor's new car. My mom didn't with-hold birthday presents from me b/c I didn't always honor her.

Bec20 · December 2010

I would give them a gift, but I'm also in the camp of gay marriage should be legal without a question of a doubt (and it is where I am), so that might be different.

And talking about a gay person as being "married" is really quite insulting because, even if you don't agree with it, if they're legally married then they are just as married as you and your FI would be after your wedding.

aegrish · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:61cadf7f-defa-44a7-8513-685f94d30416">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]I would give them a gift, but I'm also in the camp of gay marriage should be legal without a question of a doubt (and it is where I am), so that might be different. And talking about a gay person as being "married" is really quite insulting because, even if you don't agree with it, if they're legally married then they are just as married as you and your FI would be after your wedding.
Posted by Bec20[/QUOTE]

It is not legal in my state.

aegrish · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:60edf36c-06bb-46c3-bd0b-54b0edbd3ed4Post:8948d0b6-2d45-45bc-8086-074d578e0331">Re: controversial question....</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: controversial question.... : This has always confused me. Everyone talks so much about being opposed to premartital sex, and then when an aquantence has a baby before marriage they still seem so happy about the baby. Assuming no immaculate conception, there must have been sex to produce a baby. Seems hypocritical to me. If babies are ok, how is the sex so wrong? FI and I decided to have premarital sex b/c WE don't think it's wrong, and that's based on our own interpretatios. On the other hand, when I read the Bible, it looks to me like homosexuality is a sin. The Bible is God's Word, and it's up to God to decide if it's wrong. I'm not here to judge, nor can I read the Bible in the original language (I distrust translations). Sure, my simple understanding tells me homosexuality is wrong, but as a human, I can't be sure. I would probably give a gift in support of their happiness. And anyway, we're all sinners. We aren't not going to give FBIL a Christmas gift b/c he covets the neighbor's new car. My mom didn't with-hold birthday presents from me b/c I didn't always honor her.
Posted by jenn.daniel[/QUOTE]

I agree we're all sinners, but there's a difference between someone living in a lifestyle of sin and 'sinning'. I agree we should not judge people based on their lifestyle choices, but I also do not want to support a lifestyle that I believe the Bible specifically speaks out against. I realize not all Christians Feel this way. As for the baby gift, yes I would give a single mother (or unwed mother) a baby gift because I am pro-life, not because I am pro-promiscuity.

Calypso1977 · December 2010

I agree we should not judge people based on their lifestyle choices, but I also do not want to support a lifestyle that I believe the Bible specifically speaks out against.

ok, you have two friends who are not married but buy a house together fully intending to cohabitat as married persons would.

do you get them a housewarming gift?

i am not a proponent of gay marriage for the same reasons that you arent. id still get these folks a gift.

controversial question....

Re: controversial question....

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