Etiquette

Help me settle an argument re: dress codes

2

Re: Help me settle an argument re: dress codes

  • TerriHuggTerriHugg
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    edited March 2015
    Call me crazy, but I actually wish people but dress codes on invitations. For me, it just makes my life easier. And yes, I've been dressing myself for several years successfully, but appreciate knowing what the status quo is ahead of time so I can make sure I look appropriate and feel comfortable. 

    But that's just me...
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  • TerriHugg said:

    Call me crazy, but I actually wish people but dress codes on invitations. For me, it just makes my life easier. And yes, I've been dressing myself for several years successfully, but appreciate knowing what the status quo is ahead of time so I can make sure I look appropriate and feel comfortable. 


    But that's just me...
    This is an etiquette board and doing this is against etiquette, so....
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  • TerriHuggTerriHugg
    Fifth Anniversary 500 Comments 100 Love Its First Answer
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    edited March 2015

    So...... I stated what I prefer,  obviously. I am well aware about what etiquette states. The OP asked and I answered what we thought.   I know how to read and can clearly see that it is an etiquette board. I'm not an idiot.
     
    I  got married two years ago and followed the etiquette rules according this board. 

    I stated what I wish happened and not what etiquette is. I know what the etiquette rule dictates and I understand why some people find the inclusion of dress code offensive. .  I did not tell the OP to put the dress code on the invitations. 

    But I know what I prefer for myself. That being said, I did not put dress code info on my invitations when I got married two years ago because I know what etiquette dictates, but that doesn't mean that I wish it were otherwise. 

    SOOOOOOOOOOOOO....... 
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  • flantasticflantastic The Midwest
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    TerriHugg said:


    So...... I stated what I prefer,  obviously. I am well aware about what etiquette states. The OP asked and I answered what we thought.   I know how to read and can clearly see that it is an etiquette board. I'm not an idiot.
     
    I  got married two years ago and followed the etiquette rules according this board. 

    I stated what I wish happened and not what etiquette is. I know what the etiquette rule dictates and I understand why some people find the inclusion of dress code offensive. .  I did not tell the OP to put the dress code on the invitations. 

    But I know what I prefer for myself. That being said, I did not put dress code info on my invitations when I got married two years ago because I know what etiquette dictates, but that doesn't mean that I wish it were otherwise. 

    SOOOOOOOOOOOOO....... 
    The problem is, as people have stated over and over again, that most "dress codes" don't have any consistent meaning. So in most cases, it's not even helpful. I'm not sure what you're envisioning people telling you via their little dress code notification.

    Anniversary

  • TerriHugg said:


    So...... I stated what I prefer,  obviously. I am well aware about what etiquette states. The OP asked and I answered what we thought.   I know how to read and can clearly see that it is an etiquette board. I'm not an idiot.
     
    I  got married two years ago and followed the etiquette rules according this board. 

    I stated what I wish happened and not what etiquette is. I know what the etiquette rule dictates and I understand why some people find the inclusion of dress code offensive. .  I did not tell the OP to put the dress code on the invitations. 

    But I know what I prefer for myself. That being said, I did not put dress code info on my invitations when I got married two years ago because I know what etiquette dictates, but that doesn't mean that I wish it were otherwise. 

    SOOOOOOOOOOOOO....... 
    The problem is, as people have stated over and over again, that most "dress codes" don't have any consistent meaning. So in most cases, it's not even helpful. I'm not sure what you're envisioning people telling you via their little dress code notification.
    I get what the problem is, why it's against etiquette and why it can be confusing for others. 

    All I'm stating is that I prefer to have dress codes on the invitation. Nothing more; nothing less. Just in my experience it has been more helpful to me to have it stated not the invitations than not - especially since most people don't understand that invitations should match the formality of the event. That's all. 

    I'm one of those people who is not offended by the dress code being on the invite, I welcome it. 



    @southernbelle0915 I also wanted to apologize to you. Just reread my response and realized it came off kind of mean. Didn't intend for it read that way. 
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  • adk19adk19
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    TerriHugg said:

    TerriHugg said:


    So...... I stated what I prefer,  obviously. I am well aware about what etiquette states. The OP asked and I answered what we thought.   I know how to read and can clearly see that it is an etiquette board. I'm not an idiot.
     
    I  got married two years ago and followed the etiquette rules according this board. 

    I stated what I wish happened and not what etiquette is. I know what the etiquette rule dictates and I understand why some people find the inclusion of dress code offensive. .  I did not tell the OP to put the dress code on the invitations. 

    But I know what I prefer for myself. That being said, I did not put dress code info on my invitations when I got married two years ago because I know what etiquette dictates, but that doesn't mean that I wish it were otherwise. 

    SOOOOOOOOOOOOO....... 
    The problem is, as people have stated over and over again, that most "dress codes" don't have any consistent meaning. So in most cases, it's not even helpful. I'm not sure what you're envisioning people telling you via their little dress code notification.
    I get what the problem is, why it's against etiquette and why it can be confusing for others. 

    All I'm stating is that I prefer to have dress codes on the invitation. Nothing more; nothing less. Just in my experience it has been more helpful to me to have it stated not the invitations than not - especially since most people don't understand that invitations should match the formality of the event. That's all. 

    I'm one of those people who is not offended by the dress code being on the invite, I welcome it. 



    @southernbelle0915 I also wanted to apologize to you. Just reread my response and realized it came off kind of mean. Didn't intend for it read that way. 
    I just really don't understand why you want to have the dress code listed on the invite.  So, I send you a pastel blue invitation with black writing, very traditional looking except for the blue, and it states "dress code: beach formal" on the invite.  What do you wear?  What do you wear when the invite says "dress code: business casual'?  What about for "dress code: farmhouse chic"?
  • flantasticflantastic The Midwest
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    member
    edited March 2015
    adk19 said:

    TerriHugg said:

    TerriHugg said:


    So...... I stated what I prefer,  obviously. I am well aware about what etiquette states. The OP asked and I answered what we thought.   I know how to read and can clearly see that it is an etiquette board. I'm not an idiot.
     
    I  got married two years ago and followed the etiquette rules according this board. 

    I stated what I wish happened and not what etiquette is. I know what the etiquette rule dictates and I understand why some people find the inclusion of dress code offensive. .  I did not tell the OP to put the dress code on the invitations. 

    But I know what I prefer for myself. That being said, I did not put dress code info on my invitations when I got married two years ago because I know what etiquette dictates, but that doesn't mean that I wish it were otherwise. 

    SOOOOOOOOOOOOO....... 
    The problem is, as people have stated over and over again, that most "dress codes" don't have any consistent meaning. So in most cases, it's not even helpful. I'm not sure what you're envisioning people telling you via their little dress code notification.
    I get what the problem is, why it's against etiquette and why it can be confusing for others. 

    All I'm stating is that I prefer to have dress codes on the invitation. Nothing more; nothing less. Just in my experience it has been more helpful to me to have it stated not the invitations than not - especially since most people don't understand that invitations should match the formality of the event. That's all. 

    I'm one of those people who is not offended by the dress code being on the invite, I welcome it. 



    @southernbelle0915 I also wanted to apologize to you. Just reread my response and realized it came off kind of mean. Didn't intend for it read that way. 
    I just really don't understand why you want to have the dress code listed on the invite.  So, I send you a pastel blue invitation with black writing, very traditional looking except for the blue, and it states "dress code: beach formal" on the invite.  What do you wear?  What do you wear when the invite says "dress code: business casual'?  What about for "dress code: farmhouse chic"?



    Right. How exactly is this helpful?

    ETA: Even "dress code: formal" doesn't tell me anything about what to wear. You'd see that and just hope that what you consider formal is what the other guests will think and what the hosts intended?

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  • slothiegalslothiegal The Sloth Farm
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    edited March 2015

    TerriHugg said:

    TerriHugg said:


    So...... I stated what I prefer,  obviously. I am well aware about what etiquette states. The OP asked and I answered what we thought.   I know how to read and can clearly see that it is an etiquette board. I'm not an idiot.
     
    I  got married two years ago and followed the etiquette rules according this board. 

    I stated what I wish happened and not what etiquette is. I know what the etiquette rule dictates and I understand why some people find the inclusion of dress code offensive. .  I did not tell the OP to put the dress code on the invitations. 

    But I know what I prefer for myself. That being said, I did not put dress code info on my invitations when I got married two years ago because I know what etiquette dictates, but that doesn't mean that I wish it were otherwise. 

    SOOOOOOOOOOOOO....... 
    The problem is, as people have stated over and over again, that most "dress codes" don't have any consistent meaning. So in most cases, it's not even helpful. I'm not sure what you're envisioning people telling you via their little dress code notification.
    I get what the problem is, why it's against etiquette and why it can be confusing for others. 

    All I'm stating is that I prefer to have dress codes on the invitation. Nothing more; nothing less. Just in my experience it has been more helpful to me to have it stated not the invitations than not - especially since most people don't understand that invitations should match the formality of the event. That's all. 

    I'm one of those people who is not offended by the dress code being on the invite, I welcome it. 



    @southernbelle0915 I also wanted to apologize to you. Just reread my response and realized it came off kind of mean. Didn't intend for it read that way. 

    Oh god this is making my head hurt.

    It reminds me of court...I remember a defendant on his sentencing day getting into it with the judge:

    "I feel like weed be should legal!"
    "Well, it isn't here."
    "But I feel like it should be!"
    "Well, so do I.  But it isn't."
    "BUT It should be legal!"
    "Well, yes, it should be.  But it isn't.  You committed a crime.  End of discussion."


    This is the Etiquette board.  It's one of the more black and white places here.  Thus, correct etiquette advice is/SHOULD be given.  It's not really a "I like this" and "I like that" sort of thing. 
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  • TerriHugg said:


    So...... I stated what I prefer,  obviously. I am well aware about what etiquette states. The OP asked and I answered what we thought.   I know how to read and can clearly see that it is an etiquette board. I'm not an idiot.
     
    I  got married two years ago and followed the etiquette rules according this board. 

    I stated what I wish happened and not what etiquette is. I know what the etiquette rule dictates and I understand why some people find the inclusion of dress code offensive. .  I did not tell the OP to put the dress code on the invitations. 

    But I know what I prefer for myself. That being said, I did not put dress code info on my invitations when I got married two years ago because I know what etiquette dictates, but that doesn't mean that I wish it were otherwise. 

    SOOOOOOOOOOOOO....... 
    The problem is, as people have stated over and over again, that most "dress codes" don't have any consistent meaning. So in most cases, it's not even helpful. I'm not sure what you're envisioning people telling you via their little dress code notification.
    I get what the problem is, why it's against etiquette and why it can be confusing for others. 

    All I'm stating is that I prefer to have dress codes on the invitation. Nothing more; nothing less. Just in my experience it has been more helpful to me to have it stated not the invitations than not - especially since most people don't understand that invitations should match the formality of the event. That's all. 

    I'm one of those people who is not offended by the dress code being on the invite, I welcome it. 



    @southernbelle0915 I also wanted to apologize to you. Just reread my response and realized it came off kind of mean. Didn't intend for it read that way. 

    Oh god this is making my head hurt.

    It reminds me of court...I remember a defendant on his sentencing day getting into it with the judge:

    "I feel like weed be should legal!"
    "Well, it isn't here."
    "But I feel like it should be!"
    "Well, so do I.  But it isn't."
    "BUT It should be legal!"
    "Well, yes, it should be.  But it isn't.  You committed a crime.  End of discussion."


    This is the Etiquette board.  It's one of the more black and white places here.  Thus, correct etiquette advice is/SHOULD be given.  It's not really a "I like this" and "I like that" sort of thing. 


    Except that's exactly what the OP was asking for. The OP knew exactly what they etiquette stated so there was no need to advice her of it. She asked from a guest's stand point, what do you prefer. 

    I'm sick of people saying this is an etiquette board like I'm incapable of reading. I answered the question the OP asked. NO where did I say, go ahead and put the dress code because who cares what etiquette dictates. And like I said, despite my own preference I didn't even put dress code on my own invites. So I know how to host a properly hosted event according to etiquette guidelines so no need to remind of what board I'm on. Thank you. 

    The OP made it clear that she knew the right way thing to do as do I. 
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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair
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    TerriHugg said:

    Call me crazy, but I actually wish people but dress codes on invitations. For me, it just makes my life easier. And yes, I've been dressing myself for several years successfully, but appreciate knowing what the status quo is ahead of time so I can make sure I look appropriate and feel comfortable. 


    But that's just me...
    Google is your friend.  Plug the venue name and address into Google and voila!  You will be able to see exactly where you are going to go, and can then determine how you should dress for it.

    If I was told to write a dress code on my invitations I would have written "Rockstar" "Bo$$" or "Fucking Hot."  That was our wedding vision, but I'm not sure how helpful that would have been to guests.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


    adk19
  • adk19adk19
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its Third Anniversary 5 Answers
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    Call me crazy, but I actually wish people but dress codes on invitations. For me, it just makes my life easier. And yes, I've been dressing myself for several years successfully, but appreciate knowing what the status quo is ahead of time so I can make sure I look appropriate and feel comfortable. 

    But that's just me...
    Google is your friend.  Plug the venue name and address into Google and voila!  You will be able to see exactly where you are going to go, and can then determine how you should dress for it.

    If I was told to write a dress code on my invitations I would have written "Rockstar" "Bo$$" or "Fucking Hot."  That was our wedding vision, but I'm not sure how helpful that would have been to guests.


    Yep!  Just did the bolded for my cousin's wedding.  Looks like the reception is at a restaurant I'd enjoy having a burger and a beer at on a random Saturday afternoon.  Therefore, I will be wearing a comfortable and casual dress.  FH will wear khakis and a button down, no tie.
  • JennyColadaJennyColada Awesometown, CA
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    Google is your friend.  Plug the venue name and address into Google and voila!  You will be able to see exactly where you are going to go, and can then determine how you should dress for it.

    This doesn't work for all venues though (beach, backyard, country clubs). Plus, the venue where I technicalky got married is pretty formal, but I got married in the garden (which is much more casual, but you'd have no way of knowing this via Google).
    TerriHugg
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary First Answer
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    Google is your friend.  Plug the venue name and address into Google and voila!  You will be able to see exactly where you are going to go, and can then determine how you should dress for it.

    This doesn't work for all venues though (beach, backyard, country clubs). Plus, the venue where I technicalky got married is pretty formal, but I got married in the garden (which is much more casual, but you'd have no way of knowing this via Google).
    So then you (general sense) use common sense and the invitation style as a clue.  I'd never assume a beach or backyard wedding was formal. . . unless the invitations were fancy. letterpress, etc.  And then I still wouldn't show up in a floor length gown.

    Country clubs are more formal venues and most have stated dress codes and websites.

    If I Goggled your venue Jenny, and saw that it was a fancy schmancy place, but that you were getting married in the garden as per your invitations, I'd still dress more on the formal/fancy side and then just wear wedge heels.  The garden is still on the property of the fancy/schmansy place after all.

    It never hurts to be slightly overdressed.  And when in doubt, ask the couple directly for advice on what to wear.

    These topics come up all of the time and I really don't understand them.  At all. It's not that hard to dress yourself for an event.  I can't believe that dressing for weddings causes so many people such angst and confusion.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


    adk19ohannabelle
  • As a guest, I much much prefer it when people put "dress code" information SOMEWHERE, whether on their website or their invites, as long as it's more of a guideline about what formality level will feel comfortable and not about turning your guests into accessories (aka I would not want to go to a wedding where the couple was like "Black tie with a splash of yellow or we won't let you be in the pictures").

    I find it kind of ... not offensive, exactly, but narrow-minded to assume that "Common sense" is a thing that all people share that tells them exactly what outfit to wear to a wedding. Until I started reading this board, I had no idea that 'after 6pm with really thick invitation paper' means 'probably you should wear black tie' according to supposed common sense, or that you could somehow magically know what to wear to a wedding by googling the venue*. Expecting people to figure that shit out is expecting them to have knowledge of a giant set of unspoken social rules that, realistically, is much more available to some people than to others. For example, my one friend who had a 6pm wedding at the Yale Club told us on the invites that it was black tie, and it was extremely helpful because I definitely might have worn just a sundress if I hadn't been told otherwise, and I'd have felt VERY out of place (even my "black tie" dress was still not as nice as most of the guests'). And yet some of her family, who are extremely wealthy in that way where you make your whole life about being friends with other wealthy people, was probably like "Duh, it's at 6pm at the Yale Club, why do you need to SAY that it's black tie? RUDE." Because they've never heard of people who have literally never been to a black tie event, and don't realize that not only do such people exist, but also may have gone their whole lives without realizing that there are ways to know something is black tie without its ever being said explicitly.
    *assuming you're young enough to even know how to do that, which, let's face it, a lot of wedding invites go to eighty-year-old great-uncles you never knew you had amirite?

    One caveat though. For me, I'm planning my own wedding too (obviously since I'm here!) and we put an insert with information about transportation, including the reception location -- and we put "Black tie optional" underneath, entirely intending it to be helpful. What we wanted to convey was "Go fancy if you like being fancy but you definitely don't have to, see: dictionary definition of optional." But unfortunately I think a couple people saw the "black tie" much more than the "optional" and got freaked out and I had to be like, "Whoa, whoa! A suit is fine. Khakis are fine, we really don't care." So if I had to do it all over again I'd probably do an FAQ thing where I explained that we would be dressed in black tie but that guests could feel free to go formal or semi-formal. That would seem less like a dress "code" and more like "attire information," which I think is more helpful to guests.

    Also, just to be contradictory: I was invited to a hilariously tacky wedding recently where they splashed "Black tie" or something like that on EVERY page of their wedding site and it was like... omg, saw that the first time, calm down because you're really making me want to wear jeans right now.
  • ViczaesarViczaesar Central Coast, CA
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    biggrouch said:

    As a guest, I much much prefer it when people put "dress code" information SOMEWHERE, whether on their website or their invites, as long as it's more of a guideline about what formality level will feel comfortable and not about turning your guests into accessories (aka I would not want to go to a wedding where the couple was like "Black tie with a splash of yellow or we won't let you be in the pictures").


    I find it kind of ... not offensive, exactly, but narrow-minded to assume that "Common sense" is a thing that all people share that tells them exactly what outfit to wear to a wedding. Until I started reading this board, I had no idea that 'after 6pm with really thick invitation paper' means 'probably you should wear black tie' according to supposed common sense, or that you could somehow magically know what to wear to a wedding by googling the venue*. Expecting people to figure that shit out is expecting them to have knowledge of a giant set of unspoken social rules that, realistically, is much more available to some people than to others. For example, my one friend who had a 6pm wedding at the Yale Club told us on the invites that it was black tie, and it was extremely helpful because I definitely might have worn just a sundress if I hadn't been told otherwise, and I'd have felt VERY out of place (even my "black tie" dress was still not as nice as most of the guests'). And yet some of her family, who are extremely wealthy in that way where you make your whole life about being friends with other wealthy people, was probably like "Duh, it's at 6pm at the Yale Club, why do you need to SAY that it's black tie? RUDE." Because they've never heard of people who have literally never been to a black tie event, and don't realize that not only do such people exist, but also may have gone their whole lives without realizing that there are ways to know something is black tie without its ever being said explicitly.
    *assuming you're young enough to even know how to do that, which, let's face it, a lot of wedding invites go to eighty-year-old great-uncles you never knew you had amirite?

    One caveat though. For me, I'm planning my own wedding too (obviously since I'm here!) and we put an insert with information about transportation, including the reception location -- and we put "Black tie optional" underneath, entirely intending it to be helpful. What we wanted to convey was "Go fancy if you like being fancy but you definitely don't have to, see: dictionary definition of optional." But unfortunately I think a couple people saw the "black tie" much more than the "optional" and got freaked out and I had to be like, "Whoa, whoa! A suit is fine. Khakis are fine, we really don't care." So if I had to do it all over again I'd probably do an FAQ thing where I explained that we would be dressed in black tie but that guests could feel free to go formal or semi-formal. That would seem less like a dress "code" and more like "attire information," which I think is more helpful to guests.

    Also, just to be contradictory: I was invited to a hilariously tacky wedding recently where they splashed "Black tie" or something like that on EVERY page of their wedding site and it was like... omg, saw that the first time, calm down because you're really making me want to wear jeans right now.
    Actually, Black Tie is the only time it's acceptable to indicate dress code (as you're actually indicating a type of event, one that just happens to also have a dress code), with the exception of venue dress code requirements (e.g. jacket and tie at a country club).  And after 6 pm with a heavy stationery and formal font =/= Black Tie.  Black Tie events have a very specific, detailed list of criteria.  The vast majority of weddings are not black tie.  What an evening wedding with a more formal looking invitation simply tells you is that it would be appropriate to dress more formally, for example with a nice cocktail dress or suit. 

    What it comes down to is: things that are rude to dictate should not be dictated just because some people would prefer them to be dictated.  You do not get to tell your guests how to dress.  If you're having a super formal Black Tie event it's acceptable to let people know that it's a Black Tie event, but that is designating a specific type of event.  You can choose to follow the dress code that usually goes with that (floor-length gown or tuxedo), or not. 

    Black Tie Optional is not a thing and is not helpful.  In fact, as you've already seen, it's more confusing than saying nothing.  An event is either Black Tie, or it's not.  You're not dressed "Black Tie" unless your event is Black Tie; a tuxedo and long gowns is not synonymous with Black Tie.  If the event is not Black Tie, tell your guests what time the event is and where, and let them decide how they want to dress.  If they're truly confused they'll ask you for more information.  Don't act like your guests are too dumb to read the social clues and trust that if they need help they'll reach out to you or someone else in the know.



    PrettyGirlLostlevioosa
  • biggrouchbiggrouch
    100 Love Its Second Anniversary 10 Comments Name Dropper
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    edited March 2015
    Black Tie Optional is not a thing and is not helpful.  In fact, as you've already seen, it's more confusing than saying nothing... Don't act like your guests are too dumb to read the social clues and trust that if they need help they'll reach out to you or someone else in the know.

    Like I said, I feel like I learned a lesson there. To me, "black tie optional" has a pretty clear meaning and I have seen it in a lot of places and it helps me figure out the formality. But it hasn't necessarily penetrated everywhere (I'm not talking about people who know what it is typically intended to convey but have a deep-seated belief that it is Not A Thing, but people who actually haven't heard the phrase). "Telling your guests how to dress" is exactly what I thought I was not doing since "optional" means... what it means. But yes, as I already admitted, if I'd realized that it was going to confuse anyone I might have given more useful information in a different place, i.e. on the website, and I was trying to pass that experience along to anyone else who was considering doing what I did. And I think I've already addressed how much I disagree with the concept that only "dumb" people are unable to read the particular social cues of a given event so I won't repeat myself on that front.

    Thanks for the context about black tie events btw -- I find it interesting that that's considered acceptable by Knot natives to put on an invite, while other information isn't. For some reason I misread other threads earlier. It's also funny to me that some people would not consider a man in a tuxedo to be wearing black tie unless he was in a particular type of event. None of my close friends make a distinction between a tux and "black tie."

    What it comes down to is: things that are rude to dictate should not be dictated just because some people would prefer them to be dictated.

    I guess we've abandoned the pretense of "etiquette is about the comfort of the guests," then? That's fine, but the original poster asked about what we prefer when we're guests, not about what the Official Knot Etiquette is, since she was clearly aware of that already. So I think I was answering the question appropriately.
  • Black Tie Optional is not a thing because it's always an option, in that people can choose to dress that way if they want. It's also stupid because people only put it because they want people to dress super fancy without hosting them in that manner. Also, the confusing part comes in because while it says 'optional' it puts pressure on the guest to buy/rent a gown or tux because what if everyone else is wearing one? At true black tie events there is no question that that level of formalwear is appropriate.

    Also, when OP asks on an etiquette board, she's going to get correct etiquette answers.

    Also also, there is no real dress code apart from Black Tie or White Tie. All these other dumbass 'dress codes' are just made-up bullshit that don't actually mean anything.
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    PrettyGirlLostredoryx
  • "It's also stupid because people only put it because they want people to dress super fancy without hosting them in that manner. "

    Ooh, you got me! I totally lied. We didn't do it to be helpful, we actually did it because we wanted everyone to show up in ballgowns but didn't want to shell out for a cheese course.
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair
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    biggrouch said:

    "It's also stupid because people only put it because they want people to dress super fancy without hosting them in that manner. "

    Ooh, you got me! I totally lied. We didn't do it to be helpful, we actually did it because we wanted everyone to show up in ballgowns but didn't want to shell out for a cheese course.
    Are you actually having a black tie event?  Do you know what the criteria are that makes an event black tie?

    I'm asking in earnest, not to be an ass, because many of the brides who come on here have no clue that black tie isn't a dress code and through that phrase and BTO around just to get guests to dress up.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • Maggie0829Maggie0829 Ravens & Bohs & Crabs & O's
    10000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    member
    When it comes to dress codes this is my feeling.  I am an adult.  I know how to dress myself.  I know how to determine what is and is not appropriate for a wedding.  So I don't need you to tell me what to wear.  And if I were a person who thought that jeans were appropriate for a wedding then I am going to wear jeans regardless if you put "beach formal", "business casual", " vintage chic" or whatever other crazy dress code you can think of on the invitation, because I am adult and I determine what is and is not appropriate for the event I am attending.

    adk19PrettyGirlLostohannabelle
  • flantasticflantastic The Midwest
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 5 Answers
    member
    biggrouch said:

    "It's also stupid because people only put it because they want people to dress super fancy without hosting them in that manner. "

    Ooh, you got me! I totally lied. We didn't do it to be helpful, we actually did it because we wanted everyone to show up in ballgowns but didn't want to shell out for a cheese course.
    image

    Anniversary

    adk19PrettyGirlLostthespeshulestsnowflake
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary First Answer
    member
    biggrouch said:

    As a guest, I much much prefer it when people put "dress code" information SOMEWHERE, whether on their website or their invites, as long as it's more of a guideline about what formality level will feel comfortable and not about turning your guests into accessories (aka I would not want to go to a wedding where the couple was like "Black tie with a splash of yellow or we won't let you be in the pictures").


    I find it kind of ... not offensive, exactly, but narrow-minded to assume that "Common sense" is a thing that all people share that tells them exactly what outfit to wear to a wedding.   Well common sense is supposed to be universal, hence common ><  Until I started reading this board, I had no idea that 'after 6pm with really thick invitation paper' means 'probably you should wear black tie' according to supposed common sense, or that you could somehow magically know what to wear to a wedding by googling the venue*.  Nope.  1st, black tie is not a dress code, it's a type of event with very specific criteria, one of which is attire.  But a formal event can begin after 6pm and have fancy letterpress invitations and NOT be black tie.  2nd, there's nothing magically about using Google and common sense.  Oh, the reception venue is a mansion after 6pm?  Oh the reception venue is in a barn at midday?  I'd wear a cocktail dress to one and a floral dress to the other, I'm sure you can guess which dress I'd wear to which event.  Expecting people to figure that shit out is expecting them to have knowledge of a giant set of unspoken social rules that, realistically, is much more available to some people than to others. Having a general idea of how to dress appropriately is a giant set of unspoken rules?  For example, my one friend who had a 6pm wedding at the Yale Club told us on the invites that it was black tie, and it was extremely helpful because I definitely might have worn just a sundress if I hadn't been told otherwise, and I'd have felt VERY out of place (even my "black tie" dress was still not as nice as most of the guests'). And yet some of her family, who are extremely wealthy in that way where you make your whole life about being friends with other wealthy people, was probably like "Duh, it's at 6pm at the Yale Club, why do you need to SAY that it's black tie? RUDE." Because they've never heard of people who have literally never been to a black tie event, and don't realize that not only do such people exist, but also may have gone their whole lives without realizing that there are ways to know something is black tie without its ever being said explicitly.  Your friends were correct to have put Black Tie on their invitations because that let's their guests know tat they are hosting that type of event and how to dress accordingly.  Guests likely wouldn't have known that the event was black tie just by virtue of it being at the Yale Club, because if you Google the Yale Club while you will see that it's swanky as shit, there are a bunch of images of weddings and events that likely were not black tie because guest are not wearing tuxes and ballgowns.  But they are dressed formally though, in suits and cocktail dresses.

    And by Googling the Yale Club you should have seen that a sundress wouldn't be appropriate, that it would have been too casual.

    *assuming you're young enough to even know how to do that, which, let's face it, a lot of wedding invites go to eighty-year-old great-uncles you never knew you had amirite?  Yeah and those older generations typically know how to dress appropriately without being given a dress code.

    One caveat though. For me, I'm planning my own wedding too (obviously since I'm here!) and we put an insert with information about transportation, including the reception location -- and we put "Black tie optional" underneath, entirely intending it to be helpful. What we wanted to convey was "Go fancy if you like being fancy but you definitely don't have to, see: dictionary definition of optional." But unfortunately I think a couple people saw the "black tie" much more than the "optional" and got freaked out and I had to be like, "Whoa, whoa! A suit is fine. Khakis are fine, we really don't care." So if I had to do it all over again I'd probably do an FAQ thing where I explained that we would be dressed in black tie but that guests could feel free to go formal or semi-formal. That would seem less like a dress "code" and more like "attire information," which I think is more helpful to guests.

    Your own situation perfectly illustrates why BTO is not only a stupid and bullshit term, but also why it ends up causing more trouble than it's meant to alleviate.  Everyone ALWAYS has the option of dressing in a tux/ballgown for a formal event.  Always.  It's not really inappropriate to be a little over dressed, though some people may feel uncomfortable being overdressed.  And if you told your friend that khaki's were acceptable, then you aren't having a black tie event.  I'd also wager to say that khakis aren't really appropriate for a formal event because a suit would be more appropriate for men. 

    And if in the end you truly don't care about how your guests dress- extreme kudos to you because that is absolutely the right attitude- that makes having a dress code all the more pointless.

    Also, just to be contradictory: I was invited to a hilariously tacky wedding recently where they splashed "Black tie" or something like that on EVERY page of their wedding site and it was like... omg, saw that the first time, calm down because you're really making me want to wear jeans right now.
    Look, at the end of the day the main reason why the majority of posters here find attire directives on invitations to be inappropriate and annoying is that they send the message that the bride and groom are worried about how you, as their guests, will dress and that they fear you will dress inappropriately and that will someohow negatively effect their Most Beautiful, Perfect, Special Day®.

    And that folks, is horseshit. 

    Brides and Grooms shouldn't give a flying rat's ass what people they love enough to invite to their wedding show up to the wedding wearing.  They should just appreciate the fact that these people love them and came to their wedding.

    And that's why all this hand wringing, and hair pulling, and garment rending over "OMG what do I wear?!" is just ridiculous to me.  If you can't use common sense and Google to figure out what to wear, then contact the couple directly or another person going to the wedding and ask for advice.

    Most grown ass adults don't need to be told how to dress properly, and for the few people who find attire directives to be helpful you run the risk of annoying and offending the rest of your guests.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


    ohannabellethespeshulestsnowflakethisismynickname2southernbelle0915
  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary First Answer
    member
    Here are some wedding reception venues. . . do people really find it difficult to choose an outfit they'd feel comfortable in based on these images alone?

    image


    image


    image


    image

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


    ohannabelle
  • bethsmilesbethsmiles Denver, CO
    10000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    member

    Here are some wedding reception venues. . . do people really find it difficult to choose an outfit they'd feel comfortable in based on these images alone?

    image


    image


    image


    image

    I think some people way overthink it. SO's parents were invited to several weddings this past summer. His mom is an overthinker and was freaking out about what to wear. I just googled wedding pictures at each of the venues, showed them to her, and said wear something similar to these people. She thought I was a genius.


    adk19PrettyGirlLostmollybarker11thisismynickname2
  • Maggie0829Maggie0829 Ravens & Bohs & Crabs & O's
    10000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    member

    Here are some wedding reception venues. . . do people really find it difficult to choose an outfit they'd feel comfortable in based on these images alone?

    image


    image


    image


    image

    Jeans to all of them!

    PrettyGirlLostMairePoppythemuffinman16
  • ViczaesarViczaesar Central Coast, CA
    Eighth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
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    biggrouch said:

    Black Tie Optional is not a thing and is not helpful.  In fact, as you've already seen, it's more confusing than saying nothing... Don't act like your guests are too dumb to read the social clues and trust that if they need help they'll reach out to you or someone else in the know.

    Like I said, I feel like I learned a lesson there. To me, "black tie optional" has a pretty clear meaning and I have seen it in a lot of places and it helps me figure out the formality. But it hasn't necessarily penetrated everywhere (I'm not talking about people who know what it is typically intended to convey but have a deep-seated belief that it is Not A Thing, but people who actually haven't heard the phrase). "Telling your guests how to dress" is exactly what I thought I was not doing since "optional" means... what it means. But yes, as I already admitted, if I'd realized that it was going to confuse anyone I might have given more useful information in a different place, i.e. on the website, and I was trying to pass that experience along to anyone else who was considering doing what I did. And I think I've already addressed how much I disagree with the concept that only "dumb" people are unable to read the particular social cues of a given event so I won't repeat myself on that front.

    Thanks for the context about black tie events btw -- I find it interesting that that's considered acceptable by Knot natives to put on an invite, while other information isn't. For some reason I misread other threads earlier. It's also funny to me that some people would not consider a man in a tuxedo to be wearing black tie unless he was in a particular type of event. None of my close friends make a distinction between a tux and "black tie."

    What it comes down to is: things that are rude to dictate should not be dictated just because some people would prefer them to be dictated.

    I guess we've abandoned the pretense of "etiquette is about the comfort of the guests," then? That's fine, but the original poster asked about what we prefer when we're guests, not about what the Official Knot Etiquette is, since she was clearly aware of that already. So I think I was answering the question appropriately.


    The point is that SOME guests' desire to have things spelled out for them does not and should not outweigh the fact that you are treating ALL of your guests like they are ignorant by spelling it out on your invitation or website (i.e., for ALL of your guests).  If those few that want more information ask you for more information you are free to be more descriptive to them.  It's rude to the entirety of the guest list to do something inappropriate for the benefit for some of the guest list.  Does that spell it out clearly enough for you?

    By the way, the fact that you can only indicate Black Tie on invitations and no other dress specifications other than venue requirements is not an E board invention.  Miss Manners:

    In
    the interest of a pleasant New Year’s Eve, free of bickering about
    dress codes, Miss Manners will now hold a Formal Dress Clinic for
    Gentlemen.

    Hosts
    have done everything they can to create confusion. They waffle (“black
    tie invited,” ‘’black tie optional,” “black tie preferred”), or they
    make up their own terms (“festive attire,” “country club attire”) that
    baffle their guests.

    In
    the sane modern world, if there is such a thing, formal evening clothes
    are specified on invitations as either “black tie” (black dinner jacket
    with black satin or grosgrain lapels, pants with stripe down the sides
    matching the lapels, pleated white shirt, black bow tie) or “white tie”
    (black tailcoat with satin lapels, pants with a stripe on the outside
    legs, white pique waistcoat, starched white linen shirt, white pique bow
    tie).

    Hosts
    sympathetic with an inability to comply need not advertise this, as it
    should be assumed that dressing one degree down — black tie for white, a
    black business suit for black tie — would not attract violent attention
    from a bouncer.




    ohannabelleredoryxPrettyGirlLostamelisha
  • I had people ask me what they should wear because our wedding looked "fancy."  But to some of these people who ask, "fancy" is an Outback.  If you don't care if some people show up in jeans or some show up in suit's then don't say anything about the dress code.  If you want a more formal fancy wedding then put black tie.  I personally don't care what people show up in.  I'm gonna be more focused on getting married and how I look instead of how the people who are coming are dressed.  Everyone has a different comfort level and I want them to be comfortable.  So it's totally up to you and how you feel about what others are wearing. 

  • I had people ask me what they should wear because our wedding looked "fancy."  But to some of these people who ask, "fancy" is an Outback.  If you don't care if some people show up in jeans or some show up in suit's then don't say anything about the dress code.  If you want a more formal fancy wedding then put black tie.  I personally don't care what people show up in.  I'm gonna be more focused on getting married and how I look instead of how the people who are coming are dressed.  Everyone has a different comfort level and I want them to be comfortable.  So it's totally up to you and how you feel about what others are wearing. 

    Noooooooooo.

    You don't just put "Black tie" because you want people to dress up. That's the whole point. Did you read the 20 or so responses right above yours?

    You only put "Black tie" if the EVENT is black tie. For an event to be black tie, it needs to start after 6pm, be thrown at a swanky venue and have valet, multi-course plated meal, multi-piece live band with DJ to play when band takes breaks, top shelf open bar, white gloved service, among many many many other things. 

    If someone's not actually throwing a black tie event, they shouldn't put the words black tie anywhere on their invitation. Why? Because buying/renting a tux or a gown costs a lot of money. And if someone just arbitrarily puts "Black tie" to get people to "dress up" and then they don't host a black tie event, they'll have a lot of offended, pissed off guests. 
    *********************************************************************************

    image
    PrettyGirlLostlevioosaadk19
  • JennyColadaJennyColada Awesometown, CA
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its Third Anniversary First Answer
    member

    Lol. You think anyone that will wear jeans to a wedding and think Outback is fancy is going to know how to dress (or even give a fuck) to a Black Tie event?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    PrettyGirlLostadk19
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