Etiquette

Adressing invites/STD help!!

So I really dislike "Mr and Mrs. John Doe" especially for people I don't know

(like I know Mrs. Jane Doe but don't know her husband. But obviously both are coming/invited)

Does the husbands name always come first??
What is "proper/formal"

what can I "get away with"
Is Mr and Mrs. JANE Doe acceptable?

 

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Re: Adressing invites/STD help!!

  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston
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    Unfortunately, the wording "Mr. and Mrs." has to precede a man's name. "Mr. and Mrs. Jane Doe" is not correct. I agree with you about disliking the form, though.

    In all honesty, I'd either omit titles or use "Ms./Mrs. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe" (whichever title the woman prefers) unless you know that they have a preference for "Mr. and Mrs. John Doe." If you don't know which title the woman prefers, go with Ms.
    STARMOON44holyguacamole79SP29ahoywedding
  • Is "Mr & Mrs  John and Jane Doe acceptable?

    Could I just go with Mr and Mrs Doe? 
     

     

  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston
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    edited October 6
    No, if you use "Mr. and Mrs." you need to follow with the man's first name. That's why it's become an unpopular title form.
  • CMGragainCMGragain
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    edited October 6
    Though I am aware that many people are uncomfortable with the traditional address, I think that a wedding is a time to be traditional, unless you know for certain that someone prefers something else.
    Here are the two correct address forms:

    Mr. and Mrs. John Doe
    Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe

    Mrs. Jane Doe is only used for divorced ladies, and I personally prefer the Ms. Jane Doe style for this.  Widows are Mrs. John Doe in honor of their deceased husband, but Ms. Jane Doe can also be used.  I had a widow correct my modern address to the traditional form on her RSVP, so you never know.
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  • CMGragain said:
    Though I am aware that many people are uncomfortable with the traditional a sexist/patriarchal way to address, I think that a wedding is a time to be traditional sexist and patriarchal, unless you know for certain that someone prefers something else.
    Here are the two correct address forms:

    Mr. and Mrs. John Doe
    Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe

    Mrs. Jane Doe is only used for divorced ladies, and I personally prefer the Ms. Jane Doe style for this.  Widows are Mrs. John Doe in honor of their deceased husband (if they prefer it), but Ms. Jane Doe can also be used.  I had a widow correct my modern egalitarian address to the traditional sexist/patriarchal form on her RSVP, so you never know.
    FTFY. Can we call a spade a spade here? This tradition exists due to women being property and men being heads of household/the only person worthy of having their name used.

    I don't think there's a "time to be traditional" if it means being sexist and patriarchal. If you know that a woman prefers to be addressed in a sexist and patriarchal way, then go ahead and do that. But the DEFAULT should be egalitarian and inclusive:

    Mr. and Ms. John and Jane Doe
    Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe

    Did you know that the first option is frowned on because "a man cannot be separated from his last name"? But making a woman "wife of John Doe" (aka Mrs. John Doe) is totally fine, right? /sarcasm  I'm putting that first option out there because, if we're going to address people in an egalitarian way, this should be a perfectly acceptable way to address a married unit sharing a last name. 
    The bolded is how I addressed our envelopes, and I put the person we were closest to first because that made the most sense in my head. We dropped the titles for the STDs. 
    charlotte989875missJeanLouiseshort+sassySP29
  • CMGragainCMGragain
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    edited October 11
    I am sorry, @southernbelle0915 , but Mr. and Ms. John and Jane Doe is not a proper address form.  I suggest you use Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe, which is approved by most etiquette experts.

    When these etiquette gurus (Miss Manners, Emily Post Institute, etc.) change their default style, so will I.  So far, this hasn't happened.  Remember, there are many people who do prefer the traditional address style.  You have no right to dictate to them, or to denegrate their choice of address.
    httpiimgurcomTCCjW0wjpg
  • Mr and Ms John and Jane Doe just reads as clunky to me, even though it would save space if their surnames are long. I'd go with Ms Jane Doe and Mr John Doe or (informally) Jane and John Doe.

    I remember reading "ladies first" when listing names separately, but I don't think there's anything wrong with listing the person you're closest to first. Or if you're equally close to both partners, why not go alphabetical? Or whichever order has the nicest ring to it? You'd need to come up with something else if a couple has two ladies or zero ladies in it anyway!

    I agree that's the modern format should become the new default. If there are traditionalists on your guest list you worry may be offended, reach out to confirm their preference so that you can address them accordingly.


    SP29
  • CMGragainCMGragain
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    edited October 13
    CMGragain said:
    I am sorry, @southernbelle0915 , but Mr. and Ms. John and Jane Doe is not a proper address form.  I suggest you use Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe, which is approved by most etiquette experts.

    When these etiquette gurus (Miss Manners, Emily Post Institute, etc.) change their default style, so will I.  So far, this hasn't happened.  Remember, there are many people who do prefer the traditional address style.  You have no right to dictate to them, or to denegrate their choice of address.
    With all due respect, CMragain, you, yourself have said that Emily Post must be rolling in her grave over the advice her heirs have given. Emily Post passed away in 1960. I have given up hope of a posthumous update. 'Miss Manners Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior,' was last published in 2005.  As much as I adore Miss Manners, we are overdue for an update. 

    When I was a fetus, my dad, certain that I would be brilliant, invested in the Encyclopedia Britannica. Back then, there was a Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. Hawaii and Alaska were not states. If I go down to my basement to look at those Encyclopedias, they will still say that Dwight D. Eisenhower is president. I still enjoy looking at the old Atlas, from time to time,  to see how much the world has changed. But I would never rely on my old Encyclopedia Britannica for up to date information. 


    I used The Emily Post Institute as an example because they are very liberal.  Even they haven't changed the default address form on their website.  If anybody would do this, it would be EPI, but they haven't.  Nor has anybody else who has respected etiquette standing.
    You all know that I do not make up my own etiquette rules; I use reputable sources.  You can argue all you want, but you are directing your arguments at the wrong source.  I do not have the power to change a standard etiquette rule, nor will I.
    Instead of arguing with me, why not address your opinions to The Emily Post Institute, or other etiquette sources?  If they make the change, so will I.
    Meanwhile, I personally know many (mostly  older) women who do prefer the current default form of address.  This is their right.  (Yes, I actually took a pole at a couple of meetings!)  As you posted earlier, @MairePoppy , you should address people the way that they prefer to be addressed.
    @southernbelle0915 , I am surprised at you for labeling women who prefer a traditional form of address as preferring a "sexist and patriarchal form of address".  This is not your call to make for them.  It is insulting to people who do like the traditional form, and whether you like it or not, there are many of them.  Feminism was about giving women choices, not making new rules to replace older ones.
    httpiimgurcomTCCjW0wjpg
  • CMGragainCMGragain
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    edited October 13
    For myself, my preference depends on the usage.  When DH and I are a social unit (like a wedding invitation from my niece), I like Mr. and Mrs. John Doe.  When I was in the working world, I preferred Ms. Jane Doe.  I would not be offended by Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe, since it is etiquette approved, but it is not my first choice for ourselves together as a social unit.  Anyway, there is always the problem of which first name to use for me, since I actually have two that are not related.  (Thanks, Mom.) I don't like being Ms. Katherine Jane Anne Johnson-Doe and Mr. John Doe.  Haven't quite decided which names will go on my grave marker yet.

    I have etiquette books that date back to the Civil War!  Some of them are a hoot!  Did you know that it was considered improper behavior for a woman to speak to any person to whom she had not been formally introduced?  Wow!  What we think of as friendly behavior in the grocery store would have been completely taboo!  People used to actively seek out ways to be formally introduced to people whom they wanted to speak with!

    Victorian mourning customs are another shock.  Rules were very strict, and ladies could be confined in their homes for a whole year without any social activities at all except, maybe, church on Sunday.

    Etiquette will continue to change and evolve with time, but I am not the one who makes those decisions.  I just try to keep up with the current experts.  In my post that @southernbelle0915 edited, the widow I referred to is a lively, very strong feminist.  She would have been highly insulted by SB's post, I promise you!  I'm not going to share it with her because I know how upset she would be about someone judging her personal preference.  "Sexist and patriarchal" are loaded adjectives.
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  • MairePoppyMairePoppy Connecticut
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    edited October 13
    @CMGragain I have always suggested that people should be addressed according to their own preferences. Always. It's rude to do otherwise. If your friends prefer to be called Mrs. Husband's First Name Last Name, that is fine. But we are getting to the point where we shouldn't assume that any one particular person prefers the traditional form. 

    I like Robert Hickey's guide. 


    http://www.formsofaddress.info/Joint_Forms_of_Address.html#287
                
    sparklepants41STARMOON44charlotte989875
  • CMGragain said:
    CMGragain said:
    I am sorry, @southernbelle0915 , but Mr. and Ms. John and Jane Doe is not a proper address form.  I suggest you use Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe, which is approved by most etiquette experts.

    When these etiquette gurus (Miss Manners, Emily Post Institute, etc.) change their default style, so will I.  So far, this hasn't happened.  Remember, there are many people who do prefer the traditional address style.  You have no right to dictate to them, or to denegrate their choice of address.
    With all due respect, CMragain, you, yourself have said that Emily Post must be rolling in her grave over the advice her heirs have given. Emily Post passed away in 1960. I have given up hope of a posthumous update. 'Miss Manners Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior,' was last published in 2005.  As much as I adore Miss Manners, we are overdue for an update. 

    When I was a fetus, my dad, certain that I would be brilliant, invested in the Encyclopedia Britannica. Back then, there was a Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. Hawaii and Alaska were not states. If I go down to my basement to look at those Encyclopedias, they will still say that Dwight D. Eisenhower is president. I still enjoy looking at the old Atlas, from time to time,  to see how much the world has changed. But I would never rely on my old Encyclopedia Britannica for up to date information. 


    I used The Emily Post Institute as an example because they are very liberal.  Even they haven't changed the default address form on their website.  If anybody would do this, it would be EPI, but they haven't.  Nor has anybody else who has respected etiquette standing.
    You all know that I do not make up my own etiquette rules; I use reputable sources.  You can argue all you want, but you are directing your arguments at the wrong source.  I do not have the power to change a standard etiquette rule, nor will I.
    Instead of arguing with me, why not address your opinions to The Emily Post Institute, or other etiquette sources?  If they make the change, so will I.
    Meanwhile, I personally know many (mostly  older) women who do prefer the current default form of address.  This is their right.  (Yes, I actually took a pole at a couple of meetings!)  As you posted earlier, @MairePoppy , you should address people the way that they prefer to be addressed.
    @southernbelle0915 , I am surprised at you for labeling women who prefer a traditional form of address as preferring a "sexist and patriarchal form of address".  This is not your call to make for them.  It is insulting to people who do like the traditional form, and whether you like it or not, there are many of them.  Feminism was about giving women choices, not making new rules to replace older ones.
    No one is asking you to "change a standard etiquette rule," just ACKNOWLEDGE that common practice has changed and some people maybe care more about being inclusive and non-sexist than they do about being traditional. None of us have said "screw your traditional thinking aunt and list her name separately and call her Ms." Literally every person said if that's someone's preference, us it. A lot of things that are tradition are outdated and stupid. 

    And SouthernBelle wasn't calling your friend sexist and patriarchal, just commenting on the history of that addressing style, which she did clarify. 
    MairePoppySTARMOON44
  • CMGragain said:

    @southernbelle0915 , I am surprised at you for labeling women who prefer a traditional form of address as preferring a "sexist and patriarchal form of address".  This is not your call to make for them.  It is insulting to people who do like the traditional form, and whether you like it or not, there are many of them.  Feminism was about giving women choices, not making new rules to replace older ones.
    FTFY (again). That form of address IS sexist and patriarchal, plain and simple. Many traditions (including this one) are sexist and patriarchal. To pretend otherwise is ignorant and naive. If women prefer to be addressed in a traditional sexist and patriarchal way, well that's THEM making a choice - not me making it for them. 

    You're right about one thing: feminism IS about giving people choices. And you know what else it's about? Equality. A sexist form of address which favors only men does not = equality. But you know what does = equality? An egalitarian form of address.

    However, you're wrong about the latter half of that sentence (that feminism is not about making new rules to replace old ones). Quite the contrary. Because of feminist activists, you can vote, you can own property, you can get your own credit card, you can't be fired for being a woman, etc. All rules that have replaced older ones. And golly gee aren't we lucky.....THIS particular rule tradition isn't even a law preventing women from experiencing equality! It's literally a choice every single time someone addresses an envelope to a heterosexual couple that shares a last name. As a default, do they choose a sexist way? Or do they choose an egalitarian way to address them? You've obviously made a personal chose to perpetuate sexism (albeit pointing your finger at outdated books and blogs, claiming you have no control over the pen in your hand). And that is your choice. But hopefully others will not. 
    Exactly. Everyone is free to use the traditional way, which IS a sexist and patriarchal way. The fact that it is a sexist and patriarchal way may or may not have anything to do with the reason someone prefers it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is sexist and patriarchal.

    Not everyone fights for change. Not every woman marched and protested and fought for the right to vote--some just sat there and said they'd vote when the rules changed and they were allowed to vote, but they weren't going to do anything themselves to encourage the change. 
    MyNameIsNot
  • CMGragainCMGragain
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    edited October 17
    Excuse me.  I was there in the late 1960s.  I was advocating women's rights.  I was out there for the ERA. 
    Last year, my college contacted me and asked about my experiences, also hinting that I should give them money.  I replied that I had been sexually harassed by many staff members, molested by one, and this experience was part of why I do not give them money.  The 1970s were brutal for women.
    My preference for the way I like to have my mail addressed has nothing to do with women's rights.
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  • CMGragainCMGragain
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    edited October 17
    banana468 said:
    But you're advocating for something that's blatantly favoring the men.

    You can certainly say that's the way you like to be addressed.   But it seems like you're changing the argument to suit your answer.   The traditional way is sexist and patriarchal.   If someone wants to use a different format while knowing that YOU prefer something different, the new way isn't wrong if the books haven't caught up yet.
    There is nothing wrong with Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe.  I never said that there was.  I just personally prefer tradition, as do many women.  That doesn't reflect on our position on women's rights.  To equate politics with a preferred form of address is judgemental and often incorrect.  Choices, ladies!  Choices!
    httpiimgurcomTCCjW0wjpg
  • flantasticflantastic The Midwest
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    CMGragain said:
    banana468 said:
    But you're advocating for something that's blatantly favoring the men.

    You can certainly say that's the way you like to be addressed.   But it seems like you're changing the argument to suit your answer.   The traditional way is sexist and patriarchal.   If someone wants to use a different format while knowing that YOU prefer something different, the new way isn't wrong if the books haven't caught up yet.
    There is nothing wrong with Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe.  I never said that there was.  I just personally prefer tradition, as do many women.  That doesn't reflect on our position on women's rights.  To equate politics with a preferred form of address is judgemental and often incorrect.  Choices, ladies!  Choices!
    And no one was doing that. The judgment was of the origins of the tradition itself, which is objectively favored towards men, and the suggestion was that the standard be changed to reflect that.

    The actual reality is that you are likely to offend more women by using the "traditional" form of address. Knowing this, it seems silly to advocate for the tradition as the standard when you know you're going to be putting people off by using it. If someone wants to correct me back to Mrs. John Doe after I've used the above form in addressing them, they are welcome to do so, but I doubt I've offended them by using their actual name.

    Anniversary

    MyNameIsNotSTARMOON44ahoyweddingsouthernbelle0915
  • CMGragain said:
    banana468 said:
    But you're advocating for something that's blatantly favoring the men.

    You can certainly say that's the way you like to be addressed.   But it seems like you're changing the argument to suit your answer.   The traditional way is sexist and patriarchal.   If someone wants to use a different format while knowing that YOU prefer something different, the new way isn't wrong if the books haven't caught up yet.
    There is nothing wrong with Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe.  I never said that there was.  I just personally prefer tradition, as do many women.  That doesn't reflect on our position on women's rights.  To equate politics with a preferred form of address is judgemental and often incorrect.  Choices, ladies!  Choices!
    This is your stance every time this situation comes up here, and you pretend everyone is taking away your choice in how you prefer to be addressed. Literally no one is saying that. All we're saying is the etiquette "rules" haven't caught up to society yet, and it's okay to acknowledge that and choose the more inclusive option as the default. If someone has a preference, we honor that. 

    There are some etiquette rules that should never be broken, like inviting significant others or not asking for money, and then there are things that are a little more flexible. 
    MairePoppycharlotte989875southernbelle0915
  • CMGragain said:
    banana468 said:
    But you're advocating for something that's blatantly favoring the men.

    You can certainly say that's the way you like to be addressed.   But it seems like you're changing the argument to suit your answer.   The traditional way is sexist and patriarchal.   If someone wants to use a different format while knowing that YOU prefer something different, the new way isn't wrong if the books haven't caught up yet.
    There is nothing wrong with Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe.  I never said that there was.  I just personally prefer tradition, as do many women.  That doesn't reflect on our position on women's rights.  To equate politics with a preferred form of address is judgemental and often incorrect.  Choices, ladies!  Choices!
    This is your stance every time this situation comes up here, and you pretend everyone is taking away your choice in how you prefer to be addressed. Literally no one is saying that. All we're saying is the etiquette "rules" haven't caught up to society yet, and it's okay to acknowledge that and choose the more inclusive option as the default. If someone has a preference, we honor that. 

    There are some etiquette rules that should never be broken, like inviting significant others or not asking for money, and then there are things that are a little more flexible. 
    This reminds me of people who were/are against gay marriage, acting like people of the same gender getting married would suddenly make hetero marriages invalid or some bullshit.
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