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Wedding Woes

Unpopular Opinions

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Re: Unpopular Opinions

  • I don’t think your MLM campaign is a real
    job and I don’t think you’re a working mom hustling to pay the bills because you host a LuLaRoe party once a quarter. 
    Does anyone outside of these cults think it is a real job? 

    Theyre predatory scams that target vulnerable people like unemployed, new mums. I know so many people on Facebook that have orphaned MLM “businesses”.

    I get so upset at these.
    These annoy the shit out of me with their hard sell tactics.  Some of the products are fine -think of how many people used Tupperware in the 80s.   

    But it's the aggressive "When can you have your party at your house to shake down your friends" bullshit that drives me nuts.

    Of all the things it's one of the few where DH has come out to say that he hates them SO much he would never have one in his house and has asked that I promise to never do one.  

    And as PPs said - All I get from people telling me that you have a new Mercedes due to Arbonne is that you have shaken down enough friends to profit off them.  Fine - that's great.   But please don't talk to me about being empowered on your own time while I work business hours. 
    charlotte989875levioosaeileenrob
  • eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    Excuse me, the term is “mompreneur”  :D

    @NBSquared2017 I totally agree with most of yours (all but the Kardashian one..well I don’t hate them but don’t like them either).  

    I think parents and educators should combine to give kids “real life” lessons...unfortunately I can’t tell you how often Jan-Feb rolls around and I’m helping my HS seniors with FAFSA forms and the parents don’t have their shit in order.  So a lot of adults could use some kind of course too/not all parents are in the position to be teaching their kids.

    Hmm...my jackass UO is that if your city has a population under, say, one million, I don’t consider it a real city.  My “you’re crazy” UO is that I don’t like the idea of medical/hormonal birth control and I’ve never been on any in my 15 years of having sex.  Guys pre-H wore condoms and H and I NFP.
    My light UO’s are I don’t like coffee, espresso, beer, any seafood and most meat.

    Gasp!  Do suburbs count?  (Please tell me suburbs count).

    My own NOLA (proper) only has about 369K people.  But if you include all our suburbs, we are just at 1.2M.

    Yes I count suburbs if they fall under the well-known city’s jurisdiction.  Ex: when most people (including me) say NYC what they actually mean is Manhattan. But four other boroughs also combine to make up NYC. All five boroughs vote for the same mayor, schools in all five boroughs are closed when there’s a snow day, all residents pay the same city taxes, have the same police/fire/sanitation services, etc.  There are parts of the other four boroughs that are very suburban, and I’d count their residents towards the city’s population since they’re city residents.

    Eta- and please take this ^ with a big grain of salt since it’s just my silly UO! :) 


    I know :).  I was chuckling, "My own little New Orleans.  Not even a real city," lol.

    New Orleans is known around the world and adds so much culture, cuisine and history.  I consider it a city!  My population comment was silly...maybe I should change it to if your city has a sports team, an airport, a university and decent public transportation it’s a city...would that be better?  ;)
    LOL we used to make fun of my Indiana cousins (sorry, mrs.conn!) that Indiana isn't a real state because they don't have a baseball team. And I do the same to WI because they don't have a hockey team. 

    NOLA only has a minor league baseball team.  We used to have a minor league hockey team.  But even that is long gone.  But we do have pro-football and pro-basketball.

    But then Los Angeles didn't have a pro-football team for eons.  And now San Diego doesn't have one, lol.

    @eileenrob, you create your definition for a city however you wish.  That's the fun of UO threads :).  I appreciate the inclusion of suburbs and/or exceptions made for extra awesome places.  Like NOLA, lol.

    Wedding Countdown Ticker
    charlotte989875eileenrobShesSoCold
  • levioosalevioosa Southern California member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 5 Answers
    I actually really like Arbonne. It's one of the few MLM things I've tried that my skin actually responded well to. But I'm not shelling out $400 for a three step line. If it was more in line with stuff I purchased now (and it's not exactly like the stuff I purchase now is inexpensive), I'd actually consider buying it regularly. 


    image
  • 6fsn6fsn member
    Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper

    May not be an unpopular opinion- but I HATE European sizing for clothes.  I have a hard enough time knowing what size to grab and I feel like a dilbert asking a clerk. 

    (you young 'uns probably don't even know who Dilbert is.  Does anyone still read the comics?)

    ShesSoColdMobKazeileenrobOliveOilsMom
  • eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    Excuse me, the term is “mompreneur”  :D

    @NBSquared2017 I totally agree with most of yours (all but the Kardashian one..well I don’t hate them but don’t like them either).  

    I think parents and educators should combine to give kids “real life” lessons...unfortunately I can’t tell you how often Jan-Feb rolls around and I’m helping my HS seniors with FAFSA forms and the parents don’t have their shit in order.  So a lot of adults could use some kind of course too/not all parents are in the position to be teaching their kids.

    Hmm...my jackass UO is that if your city has a population under, say, one million, I don’t consider it a real city.  My “you’re crazy” UO is that I don’t like the idea of medical/hormonal birth control and I’ve never been on any in my 15 years of having sex.  Guys pre-H wore condoms and H and I NFP.
    My light UO’s are I don’t like coffee, espresso, beer, any seafood and most meat.

    Gasp!  Do suburbs count?  (Please tell me suburbs count).

    My own NOLA (proper) only has about 369K people.  But if you include all our suburbs, we are just at 1.2M.

    Yes I count suburbs if they fall under the well-known city’s jurisdiction.  Ex: when most people (including me) say NYC what they actually mean is Manhattan. But four other boroughs also combine to make up NYC. All five boroughs vote for the same mayor, schools in all five boroughs are closed when there’s a snow day, all residents pay the same city taxes, have the same police/fire/sanitation services, etc.  There are parts of the other four boroughs that are very suburban, and I’d count their residents towards the city’s population since they’re city residents.

    Eta- and please take this ^ with a big grain of salt since it’s just my silly UO! :) 


    I know :).  I was chuckling, "My own little New Orleans.  Not even a real city," lol.

    New Orleans is known around the world and adds so much culture, cuisine and history.  I consider it a city!  My population comment was silly...maybe I should change it to if your city has a sports team, an airport, a university and decent public transportation it’s a city...would that be better?  ;)
    LOL we used to make fun of my Indiana cousins (sorry, mrs.conn!) that Indiana isn't a real state because they don't have a baseball team. And I do the same to WI because they don't have a hockey team. 
    My mother doesn’t care about football at all and my father is a big Jets fan...she loves the remind him that the only true N.Y. team is the Bills, and he’s actually rooting for a Jersey team.

    charlotte989875ShesSoColdshort+sassy
  • eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    Excuse me, the term is “mompreneur”  :D

    @NBSquared2017 I totally agree with most of yours (all but the Kardashian one..well I don’t hate them but don’t like them either).  

    I think parents and educators should combine to give kids “real life” lessons...unfortunately I can’t tell you how often Jan-Feb rolls around and I’m helping my HS seniors with FAFSA forms and the parents don’t have their shit in order.  So a lot of adults could use some kind of course too/not all parents are in the position to be teaching their kids.

    Hmm...my jackass UO is that if your city has a population under, say, one million, I don’t consider it a real city.  My “you’re crazy” UO is that I don’t like the idea of medical/hormonal birth control and I’ve never been on any in my 15 years of having sex.  Guys pre-H wore condoms and H and I NFP.
    My light UO’s are I don’t like coffee, espresso, beer, any seafood and most meat.

    Gasp!  Do suburbs count?  (Please tell me suburbs count).

    My own NOLA (proper) only has about 369K people.  But if you include all our suburbs, we are just at 1.2M.

    Yes I count suburbs if they fall under the well-known city’s jurisdiction.  Ex: when most people (including me) say NYC what they actually mean is Manhattan. But four other boroughs also combine to make up NYC. All five boroughs vote for the same mayor, schools in all five boroughs are closed when there’s a snow day, all residents pay the same city taxes, have the same police/fire/sanitation services, etc.  There are parts of the other four boroughs that are very suburban, and I’d count their residents towards the city’s population since they’re city residents.

    Eta- and please take this ^ with a big grain of salt since it’s just my silly UO! :) 


    I know :).  I was chuckling, "My own little New Orleans.  Not even a real city," lol.

    New Orleans is known around the world and adds so much culture, cuisine and history.  I consider it a city!  My population comment was silly...maybe I should change it to if your city has a sports team, an airport, a university and decent public transportation it’s a city...would that be better?  ;)
    LOL we used to make fun of my Indiana cousins (sorry, mrs.conn!) that Indiana isn't a real state because they don't have a baseball team. And I do the same to WI because they don't have a hockey team. 
    My mother doesn’t care about football at all and my father is a big Jets fan...she loves the remind him that the only true N.Y. team is the Bills, and he’s actually rooting for a Jersey team.

    I love to remind people of that, too. 
    STARMOON44eileenrobshort+sassyahoywedding
  • lovesclimbinglovesclimbing Alaska member
    Sixth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    eileenrob said:
    I don’t think your MLM campaign is a real
    job and I don’t think you’re a working mom hustling to pay the bills because you host a LuLaRoe party once a quarter. 
    LOL YESSS. And you are not "self-employed" or an "entrepreneur" unless you've got the MK pink Cadillac.  
    >snip<

      My “you’re crazy” UO is that I don’t like the idea of medical/hormonal birth control and I’ve never been on any in my 15 years of having sex.  Guys pre-H wore condoms and H and I NFP.
    Yeeeeessss! Me too! I will never ever ever use hormonal birth control. Too many potential side effects for my comfort. IUDs too. Old school diaphragm, FTW!

    eileenrob
  • eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    eileenrob said:
    Excuse me, the term is “mompreneur”  :D

    @NBSquared2017 I totally agree with most of yours (all but the Kardashian one..well I don’t hate them but don’t like them either).  

    I think parents and educators should combine to give kids “real life” lessons...unfortunately I can’t tell you how often Jan-Feb rolls around and I’m helping my HS seniors with FAFSA forms and the parents don’t have their shit in order.  So a lot of adults could use some kind of course too/not all parents are in the position to be teaching their kids.

    Hmm...my jackass UO is that if your city has a population under, say, one million, I don’t consider it a real city.  My “you’re crazy” UO is that I don’t like the idea of medical/hormonal birth control and I’ve never been on any in my 15 years of having sex.  Guys pre-H wore condoms and H and I NFP.
    My light UO’s are I don’t like coffee, espresso, beer, any seafood and most meat.

    Gasp!  Do suburbs count?  (Please tell me suburbs count).

    My own NOLA (proper) only has about 369K people.  But if you include all our suburbs, we are just at 1.2M.

    Yes I count suburbs if they fall under the well-known city’s jurisdiction.  Ex: when most people (including me) say NYC what they actually mean is Manhattan. But four other boroughs also combine to make up NYC. All five boroughs vote for the same mayor, schools in all five boroughs are closed when there’s a snow day, all residents pay the same city taxes, have the same police/fire/sanitation services, etc.  There are parts of the other four boroughs that are very suburban, and I’d count their residents towards the city’s population since they’re city residents.

    Eta- and please take this ^ with a big grain of salt since it’s just my silly UO! :) 


    I know :).  I was chuckling, "My own little New Orleans.  Not even a real city," lol.

    New Orleans is known around the world and adds so much culture, cuisine and history.  I consider it a city!  My population comment was silly...maybe I should change it to if your city has a sports team, an airport, a university and decent public transportation it’s a city...would that be better?  ;)
    LOL we used to make fun of my Indiana cousins (sorry, mrs.conn!) that Indiana isn't a real state because they don't have a baseball team. And I do the same to WI because they don't have a hockey team. 
    My mother doesn’t care about football at all and my father is a big Jets fan...she loves the remind him that the only true N.Y. team is the Bills, and he’s actually rooting for a Jersey team.

    I love to remind people of that, too. 
    The Bills are my second favorite football team :)
    charlotte989875
  • levioosa said:
    I actually really like Arbonne. It's one of the few MLM things I've tried that my skin actually responded well to. But I'm not shelling out $400 for a three step line. If it was more in line with stuff I purchased now (and it's not exactly like the stuff I purchase now is inexpensive), I'd actually consider buying it regularly. 
    I have nothing against some of these products.   I never owned but heard normal people rave about Lularoe leggings too.   

    My gripe is with the techniques used to get me to buy them. 
    mrsconn23NBSquared2017
  • banana468 said:
    levioosa said:
    I actually really like Arbonne. It's one of the few MLM things I've tried that my skin actually responded well to. But I'm not shelling out $400 for a three step line. If it was more in line with stuff I purchased now (and it's not exactly like the stuff I purchase now is inexpensive), I'd actually consider buying it regularly. 
    I have nothing against some of these products.   I never owned but heard normal people rave about Lularoe leggings too.   

    My gripe is with the techniques used to get me to buy them. 
    Also, MLM companies are known to operate in very shady ways and fuck over the people shilling their product. It's why it's always such a hard sell.  

    I have some chick I barely know trying to shill me Nerium once a week in FB messenger. 
  • mrsconn23 said:
    banana468 said:
    levioosa said:
    I actually really like Arbonne. It's one of the few MLM things I've tried that my skin actually responded well to. But I'm not shelling out $400 for a three step line. If it was more in line with stuff I purchased now (and it's not exactly like the stuff I purchase now is inexpensive), I'd actually consider buying it regularly. 
    I have nothing against some of these products.   I never owned but heard normal people rave about Lularoe leggings too.   

    My gripe is with the techniques used to get me to buy them. 
    Also, MLM companies are known to operate in very shady ways and fuck over the people shilling their product. It's why it's always such a hard sell.  

    I have some chick I barely know trying to shill me Nerium once a week in FB messenger. 
    I started a Beachbody program (the 2b mindset) on June 4th and I’ve lost 16lbs so far...and I barely feel like I’m sacrificing.  So I love the program.  I also semi-enjoy the Facebook group- lots of great recipes posted.  But you can totally tell who the beachbody coaches are with the constant posts about the shakes or the Beach Bars or the “want to maximize your results? Join my team!”.  So I agree that some of the MLM products are great while the employees/coaches can be annoying.
    charlotte989875mrsconn23short+sassy
  • eileenrob said:
    mrsconn23 said:
    banana468 said:
    levioosa said:
    I actually really like Arbonne. It's one of the few MLM things I've tried that my skin actually responded well to. But I'm not shelling out $400 for a three step line. If it was more in line with stuff I purchased now (and it's not exactly like the stuff I purchase now is inexpensive), I'd actually consider buying it regularly. 
    I have nothing against some of these products.   I never owned but heard normal people rave about Lularoe leggings too.   

    My gripe is with the techniques used to get me to buy them. 
    Also, MLM companies are known to operate in very shady ways and fuck over the people shilling their product. It's why it's always such a hard sell.  

    I have some chick I barely know trying to shill me Nerium once a week in FB messenger. 
    I started a Beachbody program (the 2b mindset) on June 4th and I’ve lost 16lbs so far...and I barely feel like I’m sacrificing.  So I love the program.  I also semi-enjoy the Facebook group- lots of great recipes posted.  But you can totally tell who the beachbody coaches are with the constant posts about the shakes or the Beach Bars or the “want to maximize your results? Join my team!”.  So I agree that some of the MLM products are great while the employees/coaches can be annoying.
    I am on year 2 of the annual Beachbody pass.  I love the program.   I stay away from people selling it via FB.  

    There was drama in my mom group over Beachbody.  Coaches poaching people from other people and some shit.  Do. Not. Want. ;) 

    Also, I've seen more shadiness with LLR or Mary Kay or whatnot.  The people selling it try to keep their 'level', so they buy excessive product and then end up stuck with a bunch of stuff they can't make their money back on. 
    short+sassyeileenrob
  • 6fsn6fsn member
    Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper

    I love my beachbody workouts.  $100 is cheaper than any gym and DH has started to use it too so double win. 

    One friend sells a few things- she opens a party on the 1st of every month and closes it on the 5th.  She goes in and gives everyone her 25% discount and then has it shipped to her so no shipping.  I buy a few things from her.

    charlotte989875mrsconn23eileenrob
  • VarunaTT said:
    Here's the deal:  Adulting/living is getting fucking hard.  Life has sped up, our knowledge base is expanding, and just 'what you need to know to live" has expanded to a hella big body of knowledge between all of the bills/services/retirement/health insurance ins and outs/job searching, employment, education/etc.  I don't know if schools even CAN keep up, I don't know if even school + parents is enough.  We're all pretty much just fumbling by as best we can, some of us better than others.  I'm a really well educated person in a lot of different fields and budgeting is hard AF for me, even with a mother was a CPA and emphasized real world math and a college course that did the same.  If I had my druthers, I'd be partnered with a CPA who would give me an allowance, take care of all of the other shit, and I'd never have to think about money or bills for one second of my life again.




    The bolded 1 bajillion times over and over and over again.  
    charlotte989875ahoyweddinglevioosa
  • VarunaTT said:
    Here's the deal:  Adulting/living is getting fucking hard.  Life has sped up, our knowledge base is expanding, and just 'what you need to know to live" has expanded to a hella big body of knowledge between all of the bills/services/retirement/health insurance ins and outs/job searching, employment, education/etc.  I don't know if schools even CAN keep up, I don't know if even school + parents is enough.  We're all pretty much just fumbling by as best we can, some of us better than others.  I'm a really well educated person in a lot of different fields and budgeting is hard AF for me, even with a mother was a CPA and emphasized real world math and a college course that did the same.  If I had my druthers, I'd be partnered with a CPA who would give me an allowance, take care of all of the other shit, and I'd never have to think about money or bills for one second of my life again.




    Amen. 

    Like, I went to school forever. I TAUGHT college students. And there’s a helluva lot I don’t know (like I never know if I pick the right healthcare plan (HSA, FSA, big deductible, small premium???) or if we have “enough” in savings, or if we have a steady retirement portfolio) because there is too much to know. 

    And I tried to teach my students “stuff” they should know in general, but I was also trying to teach them specific content (I had WAY more control over that than public k-12 schools do) and we only had so much time. 

    I totally agree we, as a country, need better financial planning skills, but there are so so many factors that affect spending habits, far more than what a public school teacher, who makes $35k/yr, buys their own supplies, & has state mandated curriculum/testing to prepare students for, can reasonably be expected to do. 


    ShesSoColdahoyweddingeileenrobMNNEBride
  • I don't know anything about Beach Body other than there are shakes, my cousin's wife is loving it but it's an investment.   It's still MLM but if it delivers results I don't care.  

    The things that make me crazy with MLM:
    -Any company that requires the seller to buy what's being sold without control over what they're buying (I'm looking at YOU LuLaRoe).  I loathe the concept that I have to shop your "store" and not an online database of available product.
    -Any company that pushes parties vs. just what's online and can sell to the end user. 
    -Membership required?
    -Condescending that this is somehow your freedom.

    charlotte989875eileenroblevioosaahoywedding
  • short+sassyshort+sassy member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited August 15

    Without going crazy with quote boxes, I'm going to respond to some of the comments about my stance on teaching personal finance in schools.

    I 1000% agree that, although we don't actually "use" a lot of what we learn in school, one of the most important aspects of school is learning how to think and form ideas.  A personal finance course would do that also AND have the benefit of teaching kids extremely practical information. 

    @VarunaTT, made a great point that adulting is hard.  Absolutely!  But I feel like that is actually bolstering my arguement.  Because adulting is even harder when people don't understand how to manage their money.

    I know it is tough for schools and especially for school teachers.  I know the world around us changes all the time.  But most basic concepts in personal finance have never changed.  Outside of a couple twists in the mortgage category, loans and APRs work exactly the same way they always have.  Credit cards work exactly the same way they have for decades.  A basic budget works exactly same way it always has.  Some of the categories might be different, but the concepts are the same.

    I do understand that requiring a personal finance class is hardly going to be a panacea for the serious challenges the US and its people are facing on this front.  And that people only retain a fraction of what they learn.  But does that mean we shouldn't even TRY?  Especially for children who have possibly never been exposed to any of these ideas?  It's setting them up for unnecessary hardship.

    Just like @ShesSoCold's mother gave very wise words about "think about how much you have to work to buy that" which have stuck with her.  Maybe a 5-minute lesson from a teacher about how long it takes and how much interest is paid...for $500 worth of McDonalds dinners charged over one year...would be memorable for at least a few kids.

    Wedding Countdown Ticker
  • @NBSquared2017 the population of my whole state is only a little over a million people!  Hell, even the biggest city two states away is only half a mil. :D

    It Works - the worst of momtrepreneurs, MLM shilling and bullshit "science" all rolled into one obnoxiously green package.
  • I hate ear buds. They never stay in my ear and I like being aware of my surroundings.

    People that use hand sanitizer for washing their hands. No. Go use some soap and water. Your hands are DIRTY, yo.


    I just wore some on Monday for my flight home.  And was not pleased.  Me, excitedly, to my H, "Hey!  Can you get those headphones out so I can watch a movie?"

    And he hands me ear buds :(.  He said he brought headphones.  Headphones are not ear buds, lol.  My right ear felt bruised, on the outside where the bud was touching it, by the time the plane landed.

    Wedding Countdown Ticker
    NBSquared2017
  • levioosalevioosa Southern California member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 5 Answers
    @NBSquared2017 the population of my whole state is only a little over a million people!  Hell, even the biggest city two states away is only half a mil. :D

    It Works - the worst of momtrepreneurs, MLM shilling and bullshit "science" all rolled into one obnoxiously green package.
    ItWorks drives me crazy and cracks me up. Whenever I see someone pushing it (with “results”) they’ve also started to eat healthier and exercise at the same time. Then they come on FB prompting the wraps. I don’t know, it couldn’t possibly be the nutrition and exercise routines you’ve been adhering to since you started the wraps, right? 


    image
  • MobKazMobKaz Chicago suburbs member
    Eighth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    banana468 said:
    I don’t think your MLM campaign is a real
    job and I don’t think you’re a working mom hustling to pay the bills because you host a LuLaRoe party once a quarter. 
    Does anyone outside of these cults think it is a real job? 

    Theyre predatory scams that target vulnerable people like unemployed, new mums. I know so many people on Facebook that have orphaned MLM “businesses”.

    I get so upset at these.
    These annoy the shit out of me with their hard sell tactics.  Some of the products are fine -think of how many people used Tupperware in the 80s.   

    But it's the aggressive "When can you have your party at your house to shake down your friends" bullshit that drives me nuts.

    Of all the things it's one of the few where DH has come out to say that he hates them SO much he would never have one in his house and has asked that I promise to never do one.  

    And as PPs said - All I get from people telling me that you have a new Mercedes due to Arbonne is that you have shaken down enough friends to profit off them.  Fine - that's great.   But please don't talk to me about being empowered on your own time while I work business hours. 
    Tupperware is my crack! I have some items that are 35 + years old!  I’m glad it’s hard to find, or I’d need to get a second job to support my habit!

    The legging craze?  I'm so glad that fad seems to be dying.  Those prints are hideous!  I heard a co-worker/legging salesperson gushing over their new Disney line.  Disney prints on skin tight leggings for grown ass women?  Hell no!

    Financially, we lived below our means.  Financial stress was not worth one single tangible "thing".  When we were "young", everything other than a car or the mortgage was cash and carry.  It was an interesting life lesson. By the time we accrued the cash for what we thought we wanted, the yearning had often passed. That money got put aside for the next "thing".  The system served us well.


    ShesSoCold
  • Count me in on the group that thinks people need more financial literacy (and school should provide since it is not consistent what parents do). Hearing some of my university educated peers not understand how to manage the most basic of budgets and deal with debt is just mind boggling. I'm fortunate that my parents were very good with teaching me the basics and then encouraging me to take a financial course through the library when I was in college.


    NBSquared2017short+sassy
  • LondonLisaLondonLisa London, UK member
    2500 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    edited August 16
    I'm sorry, my mind is just blown. Can someone please explain to me the difference between what this baby is wearing and the woman on the second in on the left? Because it looks like the same cut and styling. I just can't believe people would be seen in public dressed like this.  A statement necklace does not an adult outfit make...

    Casadena
  • kvrunskvruns member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary First Answer
    @londonlisa they have some weird prints like that. I did give in and buy some solid black ones and they are super comfortable - I love them in the winter. But I don't do the crazy print ones and I feel like I don't see people in them as much anymore
    charlotte989875
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