Therapy, and maybe not spend time with the 'defenders'.

mrsconn23 · August 2018

Dear Prudence,

My husband, who grew up Catholic, was abused by his parish priest as a child. Recent revelations and the Pope’s visit to Ireland have opened a lot of wounds, and he’s been extremely on edge, reacting strongly to any mention of the subject and posting aggressive comments on social media. A lot of my family are devout, which has resulted in some unfortunate interactions. I really want to be supportive and I completely understand his feelings, but at the same time I want to keep the peace and don’t want to be in the middle. He also often goes too far—for example, accusing anybody who supports the church of being a rapist. How do I resolve this situation? I don’t want him to feel I don’t support him, even if it is true at times.

—Angry at the Church

STARMOON44 · August 2018

If you really want to be supportive and really completely understand his feelings, then actually support him! If your friends and family complain “I don’t want to hear it. As you know he has suffered greatly. He gets to handle that however he needs to. If his comments on FB bother you, then unfriend him. Do not come to me with these complaints.”

Keeping the peace is a very different goal than being supportive. The peace should not always be kept.

banana468 · August 2018

This is awful and it's why so many people do not trust an organization that actively sought to cover up.

You can be a person of the faith while hating the way those in power have acted.

That said, if he's also calling anyone who IS Catholic a rapist then I think you need to strongly urge counseling if he's hurling insults. It's a sign that he is still suffering and needs help from someone with the skill set for helping victims rather than his wife who is clearly biased.

Friends and family should be told "You can be devout and that does not diminish his suffering. You know this is an open wound and every time you bring this up it only hurts more. Why can't you stop??"

I would have serious concerns for anyone who thinks the church should be defended for its actions. Those who are devout and not upset are not thinking.

VarunaTT · August 2018

I have often advocated for being able to separate the artist from the art.

I'm not sure I can do that for the church anymore. This is a decades long, knowledge at all levels all the way to the top, sustained STRUCTURE of protecting child abusers. Literally, a structure, plan, and organization, to protect child abusers. If it wasn't happening in a church building or within religious confines, we would all be horrified, people would be going to jail for the rest of their lives, RICO charges would be up, etc. There would be no excuses; some of these criminals would be lucky to make it to the ends of their natural lives, either getting to jail or in jail.

I don't even want to keep the peace. This organization broke...I mean, are we into the thousands yet? of children, and now, adults, their partners, and their families. And these aren't old stories. I completely suspect, hell I believe, it's still happening. The religious component just adds another level of horror to it.

I wouldn't stop a damn thing he says and I wouldn't let people come to me to complain either.

mrsconn23 · August 2018

VarunaTT said:

I don't even want to keep the peace. This organization broke...I mean, are we into the thousands yet? of children, and now, adults, their partners, and their families. And these aren't old stories. I completely suspect, hell I believe, it's still happening. The religious component just adds another level of horror to it.

The PA grand jury said up 300 priests and THOUSANDS of children...In that diocese ALONE.

short+sassy · August 2018

mrsconn23 said:

VarunaTT said:

I don't even want to keep the peace. This organization broke...I mean, are we into the thousands yet? of children, and now, adults, their partners, and their families. And these aren't old stories. I completely suspect, hell I believe, it's still happening. The religious component just adds another level of horror to it.

The PA grand jury said up 300 priests and THOUSANDS of children...In that diocese ALONE.

Wait, what!?! How many priests are there in that diocese? What kind of a percentage are we talking. I'm guessing it is substantially more than pedophile % compared to general male population. I'm only picking on men because priests can only be male.

I can't help but wonder if some of those priests became priests...not because they had a calling...but as a means to be near children and "trusted" as an authority figure.

As to the LW, she really needs to encourage her H to seek therapy. Old wounds are being opened and he is in emotional distress. I would have an issue with calling Catholics rapists. Especially if said around or, even worse, toward my family. Or denigrating my family's religion, in front of them. I suspect her H is the one bringing the subject up.

He and her family need to have an "agree to disagree" policy on Catholicism and both sides need to drop the subject with each other.

Although not as horrific a subject, I have this unspoken policy with my mom and one of my oldest friends. They are on very opposite sides from me on the political spectrum and on many issues. There are a lot of subjects I just avoid and/or only touch on lightly to keep the peace.

mrsconn23 · August 2018

short+sassy said:

mrsconn23 said:

VarunaTT said:

I don't even want to keep the peace. This organization broke...I mean, are we into the thousands yet? of children, and now, adults, their partners, and their families. And these aren't old stories. I completely suspect, hell I believe, it's still happening. The religious component just adds another level of horror to it.

The PA grand jury said up 300 priests and THOUSANDS of children...In that diocese ALONE.

Wait, what!?! How many priests are there in that diocese? What kind of a percentage are we talking. I'm guessing it is substantially more than pedophile % compared to general male population. I'm only picking on men because priests can only be male.
I can't help but wonder if some of those priests became priests...not because they had a calling...but as a means to be near children and "trusted" as an authority figure.
As to the LW, she really needs to encourage her H to seek therapy. Old wounds are being opened and he is in emotional distress. I would have an issue with calling Catholics rapists. Especially if said around or, even worse, toward my family. Or denigrating my family's religion, in front of them. I suspect her H is the one bringing the subject up.
He and her family need to have an "agree to disagree" policy on Catholicism and both sides need to drop the subject with each other.
Although not as horrific a subject, I have this unspoken policy with my mom and one of my oldest friends. They are on very opposite sides from me on the political spectrum and on many issues. There are a lot of subjects I just avoid and/or only touch on lightly to keep the peace.

This was over 6 or 7 decades. So yeah, systemic, ongoing abuse and exploitation of children.

flantastic · August 2018

short+sassy said:

mrsconn23 said:

VarunaTT said:

I don't even want to keep the peace. This organization broke...I mean, are we into the thousands yet? of children, and now, adults, their partners, and their families. And these aren't old stories. I completely suspect, hell I believe, it's still happening. The religious component just adds another level of horror to it.

The PA grand jury said up 300 priests and THOUSANDS of children...In that diocese ALONE.

Wait, what!?! How many priests are there in that diocese? What kind of a percentage are we talking. I'm guessing it is substantially more than pedophile % compared to general male population. I'm only picking on men because priests can only be male.
I can't help but wonder if some of those priests became priests...not because they had a calling...but as a means to be near children and "trusted" as an authority figure.
As to the LW, she really needs to encourage her H to seek therapy. Old wounds are being opened and he is in emotional distress. I would have an issue with calling Catholics rapists. Especially if said around or, even worse, toward my family. Or denigrating my family's religion, in front of them. I suspect her H is the one bringing the subject up.
He and her family need to have an "agree to disagree" policy on Catholicism and both sides need to drop the subject with each other.
Although not as horrific a subject, I have this unspoken policy with my mom and one of my oldest friends. They are on very opposite sides from me on the political spectrum and on many issues. There are a lot of subjects I just avoid and/or only touch on lightly to keep the peace.

The scope was the state of Pennsylvania (which includes several dioceses), and over the course of at least 50 years. Many of the priests named are dead. Can't speak to the percentage at any given time. It's horrific, though (a lot is graphically described in the report), and the number should be zero.

I do think it makes sense for the family to be offended if he calls them all rapists, but considering a lot of the report involves the process of cover-up (perpetuated primarily by the clergy), I can see where he wouldn't be able to control himself. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt if I were them, and they need to accept how he feels about it. I'm not a SA survivor, and I'm extraordinarily angry about it (as a Catholic), so I don't understand Catholics who are defensive. We should all be angry - that's what effects change. (Or if you're one who had something to do with it, you should be taking full responsibility+resigning+turning yourself in.*)

Therapy would behoove the H most.

*ETA - not from a PR perspective, either - that's literally what the faith you profess to lead others in calls for. Self-preservation isn't a thing.

short+sassy · August 2018

@mrsconn23 and @flantastic, thanks for putting the time frame, in context. I thought it was 300 people who are priests right now/recently. Just in PA. Now the stat makes a lot more sense. Or, at least as much sense as a stat like that could make .

But, good points, the ugly part of such a long timeframe is to show just how endemic and systematic the cover-ups have been.

charlotte989875 · August 2018

I’m with @STARMOON44 and @VarunaTT I’m not interested in keeping the peace nor am I interested in telling survivors how to manage. And if she wants to be supportive she needs to recognize his way of managing might not be warm and fuzzy. Bad shit happened and I think anyone defending the church or the priests doesn’t get a pass because of avoiding “unfortunate interactions”.

knottie7d6129cc92a62680 · August 2018

i'd suggest a therapy

short+sassy · August 2018

charlotte989875 said:

I’m with @STARMOON44 and @VarunaTT I’m not interested in keeping the peace nor am I interested in telling survivors how to manage. And if she wants to be supportive she needs to recognize his way of managing might not be warm and fuzzy. Bad shit happened and I think anyone defending the church or the priests doesn’t get a pass because of avoiding “unfortunate interactions”.

To clarify my own thoughts, I agree with the bolded. But my impression from the letter is that her H is also crapping on Catholicism and Catholics, in general. That is religious intolerance and it is not okay. A person can be horrified by what their church has done, but still attend Mass and believe in and follow the core beliefs. They shouldn't be called "rapists" for that and have their faith denigrated.

I have always found the Catholic church (as an organization) abhorrent for a lot of reasons. Long before any info came out about covering up priest pedophilia. Most of my issues aren't even religious-based. I'll bad mouth how the Catholic church has treated those specific issues, but I don't bad mouth the whole faith and certainly not the people who follow it.

banana468 · August 2018

short+sassy said:

charlotte989875 said:

I’m with @STARMOON44 and @VarunaTT I’m not interested in keeping the peace nor am I interested in telling survivors how to manage. And if she wants to be supportive she needs to recognize his way of managing might not be warm and fuzzy. Bad shit happened and I think anyone defending the church or the priests doesn’t get a pass because of avoiding “unfortunate interactions”.

To clarify my own thoughts, I agree with the bolded. But my impression from the letter is that her H is also crapping on Catholicism and Catholics, in general. That is religious intolerance and it is not okay. A person can be horrified by what their church has done, but still attend Mass and believe in and follow the core beliefs. They shouldn't be called "rapists" for that and have their faith denigrated.
I have always found the Catholic church (as an organization) abhorrent for a lot of reasons. Long before any info came out about covering up priest pedophilia. Most of my issues aren't even religious-based. I'll bad mouth how the Catholic church has treated those specific issues, but I don't bad mouth the whole faith and certainly not the people who follow it.

This is where I am as well.

The only slight comparison I can come up with is comparing Americans to the current administration. You can be a patriotic American who is vehemently against current leadership and actions taken by the administration.

But you need to walk the walk and talk the talk. And if the LW's family members are talking about being devout then they should be outraged and not defensive.

STARMOON44 · August 2018

short+sassy said:

charlotte989875 said:

I’m with @STARMOON44 and @VarunaTT I’m not interested in keeping the peace nor am I interested in telling survivors how to manage. And if she wants to be supportive she needs to recognize his way of managing might not be warm and fuzzy. Bad shit happened and I think anyone defending the church or the priests doesn’t get a pass because of avoiding “unfortunate interactions”.

To clarify my own thoughts, I agree with the bolded. But my impression from the letter is that her H is also crapping on Catholicism and Catholics, in general. That is religious intolerance and it is not okay. A person can be horrified by what their church has done, but still attend Mass and believe in and follow the core beliefs. They shouldn't be called "rapists" for that and have their faith denigrated.
I have always found the Catholic church (as an organization) abhorrent for a lot of reasons. Long before any info came out about covering up priest pedophilia. Most of my issues aren't even religious-based. I'll bad mouth how the Catholic church has treated those specific issues, but I don't bad mouth the whole faith and certainly not the people who follow it

He was abused by a priest. I don’t think he has to abide by the standards everyone else should as someone who is suffering from violence and trauma.

banana468 · August 2018

STARMOON44 said:

short+sassy said:

charlotte989875 said:

I’m with @STARMOON44 and @VarunaTT I’m not interested in keeping the peace nor am I interested in telling survivors how to manage. And if she wants to be supportive she needs to recognize his way of managing might not be warm and fuzzy. Bad shit happened and I think anyone defending the church or the priests doesn’t get a pass because of avoiding “unfortunate interactions”.

To clarify my own thoughts, I agree with the bolded. But my impression from the letter is that her H is also crapping on Catholicism and Catholics, in general. That is religious intolerance and it is not okay. A person can be horrified by what their church has done, but still attend Mass and believe in and follow the core beliefs. They shouldn't be called "rapists" for that and have their faith denigrated.
I have always found the Catholic church (as an organization) abhorrent for a lot of reasons. Long before any info came out about covering up priest pedophilia. Most of my issues aren't even religious-based. I'll bad mouth how the Catholic church has treated those specific issues, but I don't bad mouth the whole faith and certainly not the people who follow it

He was abused by a priest. I don’t think he has to abide by the standards everyone else should as someone who is suffering from violence and trauma.

I think if someone isn't a rapist you shouldn't call them one. Full stop.

I agree he is suffering from trauma and her family needs to understand fast that this is an institution that has actively sought to cover up illegal activity. They should not defend those actions and being defensive does nothing.

However suffering from any kind of trauma, PTSD and the like does not make his actions acceptable either. Again, this is why he really needs the help of a trained professional.

charlotte989875 · August 2018

So I do think people who covered up the abuse, or knew and didn’t say anything, and just as responsible and anyone who defends them is part of the problem.

Do I think parishioners who has no role in the abuse, the cover up, and who had no idea should be called rapists? No of course not. But I do think I’d they are not calling out the leadership they’re part of the problem.

banana468 · August 2018

charlotte989875 said:

So I do think people who covered up the abuse, or knew and didn’t say anything, and just as responsible and anyone who defends them is part of the problem.

Do I think parishioners who has no role in the abuse, the cover up, and who had no idea should be called rapists? No of course not. But I do think I’d they are not calling out the leadership they’re part of the problem.

Totally agree.

VarunaTT · September 2018

charlotte989875 said:

So I do think people who covered up the abuse, or knew and didn’t say anything, and just as responsible and anyone who defends them is part of the problem.

Do I think parishioners who has no role in the abuse, the cover up, and who had no idea should be called rapists? No of course not. But I do think I’d they are not calling out the leadership they’re part of the problem.

The issue here though is that the parishioners are the backbone of the Church. Church money comes from them, the support network is literally them. I think that's why it's so hard to separate this out, even though we really want to. It's the same token as all white people are participating in a racist system, so what do we do about it? And until i see a full scale revolt of Catholics who throw out the offenders of all stripes...I really don't see where we call them innocents.

banana468 · September 2018

VarunaTT said:

charlotte989875 said:

So I do think people who covered up the abuse, or knew and didn’t say anything, and just as responsible and anyone who defends them is part of the problem.

Do I think parishioners who has no role in the abuse, the cover up, and who had no idea should be called rapists? No of course not. But I do think I’d they are not calling out the leadership they’re part of the problem.

The issue here though is that the parishioners are the backbone of the Church. Church money comes from them, the support network is literally them. I think that's why it's so hard to separate this out, even though we really want to. It's the same token as all white people are participating in a racist system, so what do we do about it? And until i see a full scale revolt of Catholics who throw out the offenders of all stripes...I really don't see where we call them innocents.

FWIW, I came from mass yesterday where our priest and pastor of two parishes (two churches in town are linked for the time being) who stated just that. He stated that on the local level, there will be a meeting within the parish for parishioners to address. He's admonished Bishops and the hierarchy for their participation in this. I'm not aware of his next steps but he has been addressing the current situation head on.

I also agree that diocese as a whole may need to be far more transparent. Show me the books. Tell me how much has been spent to defend priests. What are they doing now as a remedy?

It one of our topics of dinner the other night. Sitting at a table full of Catholics not one felt that that the behavior was defensible.

banana468 · September 2018

banana468 said:

VarunaTT said:

charlotte989875 said:

So I do think people who covered up the abuse, or knew and didn’t say anything, and just as responsible and anyone who defends them is part of the problem.

Do I think parishioners who has no role in the abuse, the cover up, and who had no idea should be called rapists? No of course not. But I do think I’d they are not calling out the leadership they’re part of the problem.

The issue here though is that the parishioners are the backbone of the Church. Church money comes from them, the support network is literally them. I think that's why it's so hard to separate this out, even though we really want to. It's the same token as all white people are participating in a racist system, so what do we do about it? And until i see a full scale revolt of Catholics who throw out the offenders of all stripes...I really don't see where we call them innocents.

FWIW, I came from mass yesterday where our priest and pastor of two parishes (two churches in town are linked for the time being) who stated just that. He stated that on the local level, there will be a meeting within the parish for parishioners to address. He's admonished Bishops and the hierarchy for their participation in this. I'm not aware of his next steps but he has been addressing the current situation head on.

I also agree that diocese as a whole may need to be far more transparent. Show me the books. Tell me how much has been spent to defend priests. What are they doing now as a remedy?

It one of our topics of dinner the other night. Sitting at a table full of Catholics not one felt that that the behavior was defensible.

Also, @VarunaTT I completely agree with you. We still have a systemic issue in a hierarchy. Our priest commented, that often those appointed to be Bishops (and then Cardinals) are Cannon lawyers. They are all too familiar with exactly what needs to be done from a system standpoint and exactly what you need to do to the letter. And yet while preserving Cannon law these Bishops and Cardinals were so consumed with following their interpretation of the law that they didn't protect the children.

He said that there's a protocol that a Bishop is to have the last word in a meeting. In one meeting with a victim of sexual abuse within the church a bishop commented that the last word went to the victim and ridiculed that process. He said that's like rushing your family out the door because the house is in flames but yelling at your kid for leaving the light on.

short+sassy · September 2018

banana468 said:

VarunaTT said:

charlotte989875 said:

So I do think people who covered up the abuse, or knew and didn’t say anything, and just as responsible and anyone who defends them is part of the problem.

Do I think parishioners who has no role in the abuse, the cover up, and who had no idea should be called rapists? No of course not. But I do think I’d they are not calling out the leadership they’re part of the problem.

The issue here though is that the parishioners are the backbone of the Church. Church money comes from them, the support network is literally them. I think that's why it's so hard to separate this out, even though we really want to. It's the same token as all white people are participating in a racist system, so what do we do about it? And until i see a full scale revolt of Catholics who throw out the offenders of all stripes...I really don't see where we call them innocents.

FWIW, I came from mass yesterday where our priest and pastor of two parishes (two churches in town are linked for the time being) who stated just that. He stated that on the local level, there will be a meeting within the parish for parishioners to address. He's admonished Bishops and the hierarchy for their participation in this. I'm not aware of his next steps but he has been addressing the current situation head on.

I also agree that diocese as a whole may need to be far more transparent. Show me the books. Tell me how much has been spent to defend priests. What are they doing now as a remedy?

It one of our topics of dinner the other night. Sitting at a table full of Catholics not one felt that that the behavior was defensible.

I have an online friend who is an attorney and occasionally sets ups charities in her line of work. She has mentioned before that the Catholic church she and her H attend won't open their books, even to members of the congregation. So they don't donate any money to them. She's even bluntly told them that they tithe 10% of their income and most of that would go to the church, if they can see what/how the money is being spent. It's still a nope, so they tithe their money to other charitable causes.

I'm not saying this an "across the board" thing with Catholic churches and/or churches in general, but her experience has had me curious if this kind of attitude is common among places of worship.

STARMOON44 · September 2018

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

short+sassy said:

charlotte989875 said:

I’m with @STARMOON44 and @VarunaTT I’m not interested in keeping the peace nor am I interested in telling survivors how to manage. And if she wants to be supportive she needs to recognize his way of managing might not be warm and fuzzy. Bad shit happened and I think anyone defending the church or the priests doesn’t get a pass because of avoiding “unfortunate interactions”.

To clarify my own thoughts, I agree with the bolded. But my impression from the letter is that her H is also crapping on Catholicism and Catholics, in general. That is religious intolerance and it is not okay. A person can be horrified by what their church has done, but still attend Mass and believe in and follow the core beliefs. They shouldn't be called "rapists" for that and have their faith denigrated.
I have always found the Catholic church (as an organization) abhorrent for a lot of reasons. Long before any info came out about covering up priest pedophilia. Most of my issues aren't even religious-based. I'll bad mouth how the Catholic church has treated those specific issues, but I don't bad mouth the whole faith and certainly not the people who follow it

He was abused by a priest. I don’t think he has to abide by the standards everyone else should as someone who is suffering from violence and trauma.

I think if someone isn't a rapist you shouldn't call them one. Full stop.

I agree he is suffering from trauma and her family needs to understand fast that this is an institution that has actively sought to cover up illegal activity. They should not defend those actions and being defensive does nothing.

However suffering from any kind of trauma, PTSD and the like does not make his actions acceptable either. Again, this is why he really needs the help of a trained professional.

Oh I don’t think he should be, I just think in this situation, you tell the people who haven’t been abused to get over it and change their settings if they want because he’s clearly suffering, and gets more leeway to behave inappropriately

Therapy, and maybe not spend time with the 'defenders'.

Re: Therapy, and maybe not spend time with the 'defenders'.

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