After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....

becunning2

Should obese children be taken away from their parents and placed in foster care?

http://news.yahoo.com/obese-third-grader-taken-mom-placed-foster-care-201731761.html

Blue & White

Ethically, I think it would depend on why the child was obese.  I mean, genetics plays a huge role with obesity..so unless the parents are force feeding the kid McDonalds all day, I can't see doing this legally.

That being said, it is definitely the parents' responsibility to show their children good eating habits.  There's a reason that all 4 of the kids in my family (including me) eat every vegetable under the sun - my parents do too.  We always have.

Swazzle

I think I'd need more information.  Is she feeding the kid McDonald's for breakfast, lunch, & dinner or is she trying to provide balanced meals for him & he has a legitimate genetic predisposition?  If it's the former then I think I agree with this decision.  She is putting her child at risk for so many illnesses, diseases, & even death.  If she was putting him in harm's way in any other form nobody would bat an eye about him being taken away from her.  Parents have control over what their young children eat & need to make healthier decisions for them at an earlier age. 

polkadot111

I think it totally depends on the situation. If parents are feeding their kids only  mcdonalds everyday and their children are gaining weight with no healthy nutrition, I suppose I could see this as neglect. However, removing a child is not an ideal situation in all cases. In this case, a social worker could get involved and try to teach the family healthy ways of living, rather than just removing the child. A child always wants their parents, no matter how they are treating them, so removing them in this case would completely shatter the childs world- I don't see how this much stress would really be conducive to a child's weight loss either.

dwest2201

I do think that parents should provide healthy foods for children, and teach them healthy habits from a young age.  However,  I think that I think that removing a child from their home would be more emotionally damaging, in most cases.  I suppose there are some cases where it would be more necessary to remove the child.  I do not think that foster care is the answer.  Some foster care families are awesome, my aunt in FL does foster care and has even adopted 2 little girls that had no family and they fell in love with, this is not always the case though.  What is in place to guarantee that the foster parents would provide healthy foods and encourage exercise though?

I think that a temporary removal, like summer camp for obese children would be better than putting them in foster care.  They could go away for a couple months and be around other obese children, eat healthy, enjoy working out in fun ways, hiking, rowing, swimming, horseback riding, etc.  After 6-8 weeks of being away they would have learned new healthy habits and can take them back home with them.

becunning2

I guess it's my turn to weigh in as well (pun, not intended, but then not deleted either once I wrote it...)

I think there should be more going on than just weight--some people are predisposed to obesity, and removing a child from the home is definitely a traumatic experience. Many foster homes are great places for kids--and some of them are absolutely awful. If a parent, however, is neglecting their child's health, not making any effort to change habits, then, well, I could see an argument being made for it. But maybe the first step should be an intervention, not a removal.

bethsmiles

I have huge problems with the foster care system. So no I would never recommend that a child be taken away from loving parents because they are obese. There are better options than breaking up a family.

DanieKA

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:924087e1-73d7-4754-9525-0664486e7acf">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE]I read the article, but I don't know about the the subject matter overall to make a completely educated argument, but I will just tell you what I think as someone who has spent years as a social worker. I think that the solution is not to take the child out of the home -- I don't think that a foster family would necessarily be more equipped to help change a child's lifestyle than the child's own family, in many circumstances, and the disruption of family life for the child could be extremely detrimental -- but to perhaps mandate services around healthy eating/obesity prevention for the family in extreme cases. I also think that before things like that happen, there needs to be "best practice" guidelines set up so it's not an arbitrary cutoff. Like, if a child is over a certain BMI (I know, not the best measurement, but it's all I can think of) and doesn't improve over x amount of months, then a social worker would be assigned to the family to try to remedy the situation with the help of healthcare professionals. 
Posted by LivLeighton[/QUOTE]

<div>This. You also have to think of this (sometimes) as an economical challenge, a ignorance and lack of education challenge, and at times a race/cultural challenge. And those don't even include medical issues or any predisposition to be chunky. Without more info than the article provides, removing a child is not the ideal answer or solution. At all. </div><div>
</div><div>Some people who are dealing with this are lower income. I dare say many/most. Not everyone can afford to buy healthy food and they just plain don't know any better. It's how they were raised, how they raised their kids, how their kids will raise their kids, etc. To just take away a child without acknowledging this pattern would be ridiculous and wouldn't stop anything. </div><div>
</div><div>Not everyone is raised with the education to know what a proper portion size is. The government considers pizza a vegetable. How is someone with little to no education,  with limited funds and means supposed to know any better? </div><div>
</div><div>For a group of people who grow up with family fried chicken recipes or grand Italian meals or Mexican feasts, there's a cultural aspect there with food and family and to come in and say, "this is wrong. This is how you do it." or just removing a child, there are some real issues there that shouldn't be glossed over. I occasionally catch this Discovery Health show "Too fat for 15' about these morbidly obese kids from all walks of life who go to this special camp/school to get their issues under control. When the counselors do home visits during the summer, you really see the cultural issues and the resistance and the uneducation that these children face. It's not their fault and it's not their parents fault that this is their reality, but to expect it to change overnight, or to remove the child is clearly a drastic and oftentimes ineffectual choice. You can't fix the problem without going into the home and helping/educating the family as well. </div><div>
</div><div>there are several different underlying issues when it comes to the obesity epidemic in this country. It's not as cut and dry as some people would like to think. This isn't a solution that benefits anyone, but people who want to point the finger at surface factors and want a quick fix for a problem that runs so much deeper. </div>

alanna91

I agree with PP that while it could be wrong the child is obese, removing the child from the home probably isn't the best way to go about fixing the problem.

If the parent is passing on bad eating habits to the child and not trying to provide healthy options; it is obviously the parent's fault for the child's weight. However, if the parent was never raised or taught healthy eating habits and doesn't know how to cook a sustainable, nutritious meal, can you really blame it on the parent? All parties involved would need help. You're a product of your raising, that goes for the children and parents.

If the parent is maliciously and purposely feeding their child unhealthy meals, that's a different story. I don't think that happens very often at all though.

Swazzle

Just to play devil's advocate, would you guys be ok with the courts taking the child away from his mother if she was physically abusive (ie smacking/spanking/beating him)??

bethsmiles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:4afff842-0163-40ae-a84f-51fcc8186766">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE]Just to play devil's advocate, would you guys be ok with the courts taking the child away from his mother if she was physically abusive (ie smacking/spanking/beating him)??
Posted by rdr716[/QUOTE]

I just don't see how it's the same. If a parent is loving and caring in every way except a child's diet then there are other options than taking the child out of the home. Physical abuse is different.

On a side note - I don't consider spanking physical abuse.

Swazzle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:a72ffc96-6312-4df9-8634-85f886edef7b">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question.... : I just don't see how it's the same. If a parent is loving and caring in every way except a child's diet then there are other options than taking the child out of the home. Physical abuse is different. On a side note - I don't consider spanking physical abuse.
Posted by bethsmiles[/QUOTE]

<div>In my opinion, a parent who chooses to feed their child unhealthy food on a regular basis (I say this assuming that the parent in the article is doing this) & is causing the child to become physically ill & diseased due to obesity is physically abusive. The child doesn't know otherwise, the parent -- an adult -- should know better & I think should be held accountable to some extent.</div>

Elle1036

I'm so conflicted on this.  It's really hard.

On one hand, I hate to see families broken up, and I do feel like other measures should be taken first (as they were in the situation in that article).

On the other hand, I wouldn't feel nearly as hesistant to take a child away from his/her parents if the parents were... say... allowing the kid to chain-smoke cigarettes or play with guns unsupervised or do cocaine, and obesity is just as unhealthy as those things are.

Ugh.  I have some relatives like this and it makes me so angry.  Both the partents are overweight, and each of their 4 children is overweight, too.  They're not as obese as the child in the article, but they're still in pretty bad shape.

jemmini6

I think education & monitoring should always be the first step in cases like this.  It seems like common sense to a lot of people, but tt's shocking how many people don't really understand nutritional values and how it affects their weight, or even how their weight can affect their health.  So rather than just remove children without explaining to them and their parents why the things they are doing is 'abuse', I think there should be a system in place that will educate parents on the issues and show them how to do it better.  Of course, if they blatantly disregard all information, and make no attempt to get their child eating better, then there should be more intervention, but even then, I think removing the child from the home is a bit extreme.

I think I've told this story here before, but a family that used to live in my old neighborhood were all morbidly obese.  Their 3-year-old daughter weighed over 100lbs and could eat a large pizza by herself (which was a typical dinner for them).  Well, their 17-year-old son was over 700lbs and needed a heart transplant because his heart just couldn't handle his weight.  He ended up passing away before he lost enough weight to even be put on the transplant list.  His parents were upset that they put the cause of death as obesity and honestly didn't understand that his weight, not a heart condition, is what caused his heart to fail.  Even after losing a child to obesity, they didn't change their eating habits for their other children because they really seemed to not know how to even do that.  It's actually quite sad because it's not like they ate the way they did to hurt their children, on the contrary, they gave them any food they wanted because that's how they showed their love.  If they just had more resources to educate them on the harm they were actually doing, or to guide them on changes they could have made, their son might still be alive today.

Swazzle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:204be154-da52-4837-9aa6-00bbb42ce5e8">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE] I think I've told this story here before, but a family that used to live in my old neighborhood were all morbidly obese.  Their 3-year-old daughter weighed over 100lbs and could eat a large pizza by herself (which was a typical dinner for them).  Well, their 17-year-old son was over 700lbs and needed a heart transplant because his heart just couldn't handle his weight.  He ended up passing away before he lost enough weight to even be put on the transplant list.  His parents were upset that they put the cause of death as obesity and honestly didn't understand that his weight, not a heart condition, is what caused his heart to fail.  Even after losing a child to obesity, they didn't change their eating habits for their other children because they really seemed to not know how to even do that.  It's actually quite sad because it's not like they ate the way they did to hurt their children, on the contrary, they gave them any food they wanted because that's how they showed their love.  If they just had more resources to educate them on the harm they were actually doing, or to guide them on changes they could have made, their son might still be alive today.
Posted by jemmini6[/QUOTE]

<div>That is really, really sad Jem. How heartbreaking for that family to go through.</div><div>
</div>

becunning2

That is sad, Jem.

Obesity is a touchy issue--and it's a pretty hot-button topic right now too. With increased obesity comes increased health insurance costs and increased usage of taxpayer dollars on it as well--for any number of purposes. I think I read recently that this next generation is the first in a long time that is NOT expected to live longer than earlier generations due to.... obesity. 

I don't want a kiddo to get taken away from a parent due to a genetic disposition (I read another case about that happening), but it is very arguably medical neglect to disregard proper nutrution. We take kiddos away from people who are starving their children--it seems logical that it would happen on the flipside as well.

jemmini6

I don't know if they do this everywhere, but when my friend had her baby, the hospital had a 'mandatory' (to plan to have the baby there, obviously they wouldn't turn anyone away if they just came in) class to educate mothers on the labor and delivery process, as well as basic infant care once discharged from the hospital.  In line with that idea, I wish we had the resources to make it mandatory to take a basic child health class that would cover obesity and other issues that can affect children.  Like I said, a lot of people just aren't educated about it, so getting that information to parents before their kids even have a problem could help so much.

bethsmiles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:d80569c2-e9e5-4d6d-adb4-a53552346212">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't know if they do this everywhere, but when my friend had her baby, the hospital had a 'mandatory' (to plan to have the baby there, obviously they wouldn't turn anyone away if they just came in) class to educate mothers on the labor and delivery process, as well as basic infant care once discharged from the hospital.  In line with that idea, I wish we had the resources to make it mandatory to take a basic child health class that would cover obesity and other issues that can affect children.  Like I said, <strong>a lot of people just aren't educated about it, so getting that information to parents before their kids even have a problem could help so much.</strong>
Posted by jemmini6[/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%

Swazzle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:d6cb6fdb-83fa-4ac6-a5a0-307efedc4f48">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE]That is sad, Jem. :( Obesity is a touchy issue--and it's a pretty hot-button topic right now too. With increased obesity comes increased health insurance costs and increased usage of taxpayer dollars on it as well--for any number of purposes. I think I read recently that this next generation is the first in a long time that is NOT expected to live longer than earlier generations due to.... obesity.  I don't want a kiddo to get taken away from a parent due to a genetic disposition (I read another case about that happening), but it is very arguably medical neglect to disregard proper nutrution. <strong>We take kiddos away from people who are starving their children--it seems logical that it would happen on the flipside as well.</strong>
Posted by becunning2[/QUOTE]

<div>This is  a great point. </div>

DanieKA

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:d6cb6fdb-83fa-4ac6-a5a0-307efedc4f48">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE]That is sad, Jem. :( Obesity is a touchy issue--and it's a pretty hot-button topic right now too. With increased obesity comes increased health insurance costs and increased usage of taxpayer dollars on it as well--for any number of purposes. I think I read recently that this next generation is the first in a long time that is NOT expected to live longer than earlier generations due to.... obesity.  I don't want a kiddo to get taken away from a parent due to a genetic disposition (I read another case about that happening), but it is very arguably medical neglect to disregard proper nutrution. <strong>We take kiddos away from people who are starving their children--it seems logical that it would happen on the flipside as well.</strong>
Posted by becunning2[/QUOTE]

<div>Starving someone is a conscious act of deprivation. Feeding someone, in a lot of cases, is an act of love. Food is love, it's family, it's how a lot of people show affection. It's not as cut and dry as this. </div><div>
</div><div>Yes, there are sick people who are consciously overfeeding their children. And yes, that's a form of abuse. But I maintain that a lot of  it is ignorance, socio-economic factors, and other root issues that can't be summed up as easily as overfeeding=abuse. </div><div>
</div><div>Even I have trouble realizing at times how little food 1,200-1,500 calories a day can be. And some healthy food, if over-eaten, cancels itself out. I used to eat a lot more granola than I do now. Not the chocolate, glazed kind either. The nuts and raisins kind. That, while a very healthy food, can add up VERY quickly when it comes to calories. I was easily eating a third to half of a 1,200-1,500 diet in mindless granola snacking. I thought I was being healthy. I was over-doing it. I'm an (almost) 30 year old, highly formally educated, middle class/upper middle class woman (I say these things not to toot my own horn, but to make a point). Not everyone has the resources to know these things. Yes, one can look at a pizza and a salad and pick the healthier of the two, but eating a bag of granola at the theater can be just as fattening as eating popcorn with imitation butter. </div><div>
</div><div>Some people think it's automatic, but it is not.. Nutrition is not something you just "know" automatically from birth.</div>

lunarsongbird

What happens with the parents that feed their children fast food everyday....but their kids don't get morbidly obese and perhaps their health is just suffering...or maybe their health isn't even suffering?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Gorske

wink0erin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:3b8dc5eb-3780-49a3-8fe7-8808490bbcab">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE]What happens with the parents that feed their children fast food everyday....but their kids don't get morbidly obese and perhaps their health is just suffering...or maybe their health isn't even suffering? <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Gorske" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Gorske</a>
Posted by lunarsongbird[/QUOTE]

That's a good point. I read somewhere (I forget where and when, sorry) that just because someone is of "normal" weight doesn't necessarily mean they are healthy. Their internal organs could still be surrounded by fatty tissue and their arteries could still be clogging.

becunning2

Yeah, I think this is a really tricky area where there are no easy answers, no black and white.

dwest2201

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:24c052cf-4d2f-42da-8cb1-6af009b60ec5">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question.... : That's a good point. I read somewhere (I forget where and when, sorry) that <strong>just because someone is of "normal" weight doesn't necessarily mean they are healthy. Their internal organs could still be surrounded by fatty tissue and their arteries could still be clogging.
</strong>Posted by wink0erin[/QUOTE]

Truth!  High blood pressure, high cholesterol and heart disease run rampid in my Dad's family.  None of them are obese, my Dad and Aunt could each stand to lose a few pounds, but my Grandma is thin and her heart is not in good shape at all.

jorja86

I agree with most of the sentiment so far in this thread. It should be a last resort to remove a child from their family. However, I read somewhere else that in this case, Social Services had been working with this family for over a year in an effort to educate them and work out a plan as far as proper nutrition for this kid. If that's the case, I think that removing the child was probably the correct course of action at that point.

Danie makes some great points about the fact that good nutrition is much more complicated then it seems sometimes. It is SO important, though, and I think it's essential that this becomes a priority as far as educational programs, etc. We've managed to make it pretty clear how awful for you smoking is, I think a similar campaign as far as good nutrition might be in order.

It does make me legitimately angry to see a parent feeding their kids crap just because it's easier. Small children cannot buy or prepare their own food. When you are a parent, one of your fundamental responsibilities is to provide proper nutrition for your child. I see the results of life-long poor diets every single day as a cardiac nurse, and I can tell you, good habits learned early on can make a huge difference in someone's life.

caitlin.cave

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_after-overindulging-turkey-day-ethical-weight-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:69bd54e9-c388-4e83-a8f9-36f819004e80Post:eac76fde-57ee-4dec-bf5f-541713ec1f4c">Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question....</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: After Overindulging in Turkey Day, an Ethical Weight Question.... : This. You also have to think of this (sometimes) as an economical challenge, a ignorance and lack of education challenge, and at times a race/cultural challenge. And those don't even include medical issues or any predisposition to be chunky. Without more info than the article provides, removing a child is not the ideal answer or solution. At all.  Some people who are dealing with this are lower income. I dare say many/most. Not everyone can afford to buy healthy food and they just plain don't know any better. It's how they were raised, how they raised their kids, how their kids will raise their kids, etc. To just take away a child without acknowledging this pattern would be ridiculous and wouldn't stop anything.  Not everyone is raised with the education to know what a proper portion size is. The government considers pizza a vegetable. How is someone with little to no education,  with limited funds and means supposed to know any better?  For a group of people who grow up with family fried chicken recipes or grand Italian meals or Mexican feasts, there's a cultural aspect there with food and family and to come in and say, "this is wrong. This is how you do it." or just removing a child, there are some real issues there that shouldn't be glossed over. I occasionally catch this Discovery Health show "Too fat for 15' about these morbidly obese kids from all walks of life who go to this special camp/school to get their issues under control. When the counselors do home visits during the summer, you really see the cultural issues and the resistance and the uneducation that these children face. It's not their fault and it's not their parents fault that this is their reality, but to expect it to change overnight, or to remove the child is clearly a drastic and oftentimes ineffectual choice. You can't fix the problem without going into the home and helping/educating the family as well.  there are several different underlying issues when it comes to the obesity epidemic in this country. It's not as cut and dry as some people would like to think. This isn't a solution that benefits anyone, but people who want to point the finger at surface factors and want a quick fix for a problem that runs so much deeper. 
Posted by DanieKA[/QUOTE]

All of this.  One of the unforunate truths of our country right now is that McDonalds is cheaper than almost anything else.  You have 2 kids, and $10 for dinner for all four of you.  Are you going to go get dollar menu burgers and fries for everyone, or are you going to go boy a head of broccoli and a pound of chicken?  The brocolli and chicken, while healthier, is not going to be as filling, and it will probably be more expensive.

Nutrition is so important, and while something definitely needs to be done, I don't think that's it.

desertsun

I like the idea of local hospitals/doctor's offices/community services type places offering free classes on healthy living. In my area, I am hearing radio ads about healthy choices. Educating children at school about the importance of healthy diet and physical activity is another step in the right direction.

I wouldn't advocate putting a child in foster care, but some type of social services should be available as resources and intervention should happen when children are clearly obese. All of that can be done before actually removing the child from his or her home, but that could remain an option.