What do you think about lying?

mica178

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:d3b197e8-da20-4003-b086-7e5a1adef6dc">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]I think there is a difference between teaching manners and being polite and lying. OMG, THANK YOU FOR THE GIFT! <--- polite response. OMG, IM GONNA WEAR THIS BUNNY SUIT EVERY DAY AND IT'S MY FAVORITE <---- lie, and not necessary. I try to only lie in the case of a surprise party, otherwise, I don't know man. I'm not down with lying. There is a way to be honest and not be cold hearted and rude and hurt someone's feelings.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

This.  100%

Growing up, we were taught "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."  We weren't encouraged to blatantly lie. 

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:808afa78-c7a8-4f48-947a-2040a6960608">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]Sorry to keep going, and I'm quite certain I've read the whole thread, but give me an example of an absolutely necessary lie. Because admittedly, I'm just looking at my own world view right now and not the bigger picture, so I'm curious about the lies that are ABSOLUTELY necessary to make the world keep going. I'm sure there are some.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

You're right maybe not necessary but kinder then the truth...

When a family member's victim asks if the victim suffered horribly and the ME/detective says no.  I'd say that lie is justified.

kd.joseph

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:fde0d3ab-3a99-472e-aa37-66a0bb39729d">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]Dude, you have NO IDEA how much I love that bunny suit. It's great times for the cats. They love it, too. :)
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

God I just got a visual!

aprovencher21

Fische keep going....I like the debate/conversation.

I'm thinking about necessary lies.

crfische

But if that Medical professional told the truth, the world wouldn't stop turning. Which is the basis of your argument. That lies are necessary to keep society going. If they LIED, that is something that in YOUR personal set of values YOU think is better for the family, but just because that is YOUR value doesn't mean that's the value of EVERYONE. Some people would rather be told the truth. True facts.

And also, it's a lie that whether it's told or not isn't going to make society stop dead in it's tracks.

mattsdorothy

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:808afa78-c7a8-4f48-947a-2040a6960608">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]Sorry to keep going, and I'm quite certain I've read the whole thread, but give me an example of an absolutely necessary lie. Because admittedly, I'm just looking at my own world view right now and not the bigger picture, so I'm curious about the lies that are ABSOLUTELY necessary to make the world keep going. I'm sure there are some.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

We always used the following example in class:
Your friend enters your home to escape a crazed murderer and hides in your bedroom closet. The murder bursts in to your home and demands to know the location of your friend. Do you tell the truth or do you lie?

The reason we used this as an example is because, at first, lying clearly seems like the right thing to do to save your friend. You could say "No she ran right through the house and went outside." But, what if your friend DID actually decide to get out of the closet and go outside and the murderer finds her there? If you tell the truth, you allow her to decide her own fate, and if everyone told the truth, she would have been  able to expect you to tell the murder the truth when he asked, she would have relied on that fact, thus having complete control over her destiny. If she could not count on you to tell the truth, and you chose to lie in order to save her life, and she knew that most people would lie to save a life, then she would have been saved as well because she would have stayed in the closet.

Something interesting to think about, big-picture-wise

crfische

I'll stop at any time, Aprove. Don't think I'm pickin' on ya.

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:af99a83d-6ec7-4105-9e2b-ee48d2dce89c">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]:) I'll stop at any time, Aprove. Don't think I'm pickin' on ya.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

I know you aren't picking on me =) No worries. I'm thinking....sometimes my brain just freezes.

I agree that that is a personal lie and doesn't effect the world overall.  I'm going to have to think more on necessary lies.  I'm sure there are some but right now I'm drawing a blank. 

I'd prefer an completely honest but kind world....but that's unlikely to happen.

crfische

HA! Matts! That's like a choose your own adventure.

OR if you lied, the murderer would be mad at YOU and then take YOUR life.

kd.joseph

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:80c8a510-7b09-4b40-82fa-99b1f9640a68">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]HA! Matts! That's like a choose your own adventure. OR if you lied, the murderer would be mad at YOU and then take YOUR life.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

This was my thought and then my second thought was why arent I hiding too.

ETA: he'd have to kill me too, I've seen his face.

crfische

Unlikely to happen maybe, but that's not the premise of your argument, right? Your premise is that lies are necessary to sustain civilization, right?

But right up there ^^ you just defeated your own argument by saying that you would prefer an honest and kind world.

So why not work toward that instead of perpetuating it?

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:80c8a510-7b09-4b40-82fa-99b1f9640a68">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]HA! Matts! That's like a choose your own adventure. OR if you lied, the murderer would be mad at YOU and then take YOUR life.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

I loved those books.  Though somehow I usually ended up dead.  Clearly I wasn't meant for adventure.

mattsdorothy

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:80c8a510-7b09-4b40-82fa-99b1f9640a68">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]HA! Matts! That's like a choose your own adventure. OR if you lied, the murderer would be mad at YOU and then take YOUR life.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

hmmm. I think that part of the premise was that the killer wanted nothing to do with you. They just really had a hankering to off your friend.

crfische

Or why are you answering the door.

Pretty sure if my friend came busting into my house saying there was a murderer around, he or she and I wouldn't likely be having a cordial conversation in my living room over coffee about where my friend was hiding.

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:ee4dd145-1ca7-4c45-8f0b-d47e8302874c">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : We always used the following example in class: Your friend enters your home to escape a crazed murderer and hides in your bedroom closet. The murder bursts in to your home and demands to know the location of your friend. Do you tell the truth or do you lie? The reason we used this as an example is because, at first, lying clearly seems like the right thing to do to save your friend. You could say "No she ran right through the house and went outside." But, what if your friend DID actually decide to get out of the closet and go outside and the murderer finds her there? If you tell the truth, you allow her to decide her own fate, and if everyone told the truth, she would have been  able to expect you to tell the murder the truth when he asked, she would have relied on that fact, thus having complete control over her destiny. If she could not count on you to tell the truth, and you chose to lie in order to save her life, and she knew that most people would lie to save a life, then she would have been saved as well because she would have stayed in the closet. Something interesting to think about, big-picture-wise
Posted by mattsdorothy[/QUOTE]

I would argue that if you told him where she was and avoided the lie, it wouldnt end society as we know it.  It would end your friends life, but the rest of the world would carry on.

But I would totally lie to his face for that.

crfische

Agreed Blue. If you lied or told the truth in that situation, neither would cease civilization or have a huge impact as a whole.

aprovencher21

I'm arguing from the standpoint of Edmund Morris that humans are essentially selfish creatures so lying is a necessary social adaptation (and I consider ommitting information a lie). 

Using as an example the gift situation.  I think it is highly unlikely that a majority of people are truly thankful for gifts they are given that they don't like (i.e. the selfish element of human nature), then for the greater good it is better that they lie through omission (not stating that they dislike the gift) vs. outright lying.

We have a whole series of civilized practices that depend upon us pretending to not be selfish and care (again not stating that everyone doesn't care just a majority).  What we ask politely how someone is say "hi its good to see you" are we all genuinely interested in how that person is or is it really good to see them?

crfische

YOU THINK it is highly unlikely. Unless you have data to support that, you're going on your gut and your own personal experiences.

Personally, I think people are generally grateful for someone thinking about them enough to get them a gift. Without data, our arguments are equally as valid.

And when I ask how someone is doing, I really AM wondering. I don't just say it to say it.

It just is an argument at this point if you are jaded by people and society and always expect the worst, or if you believe that people genuinely care about each other. Personally, I believe the latter.

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:bc61e929-c608-4dff-90ef-8863c4b33716">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm arguing from the standpoint of Edmund Morris that humans are essentially selfish creatures so lying is a necessary social adaptation (and I consider ommitting information a lie).  Using as an example the gift situation.  I think it is highly unlikely that a majority of people are truly thankful for gifts they are given that they don't like (i.e. the selfish element of human nature), then for the greater good it is better that they lie through omission (not stating that they dislike the gift) vs. outright lying. We have a whole series of civilized practices that depend upon us pretending to not be selfish and care (again not stating that everyone doesn't care just a majority).  What we ask politely how someone is say "hi its good to see you" are we all genuinely interested in how that person is or is it really good to see them?
Posted by aprovencher21[/QUOTE]

I would use Kant to argue against all of that.

mattsdorothy

It's not that the one lie would cause civilization to come to a grinding halt - the hypothetical situation shows the costs and benefits of having two different types of societies. You have a society that rigidly tells the truth, because telling the truth, is good in its own right, or you have a society that only tells the truth when the benefits to society outweight the harm to society. Which type of society will be the one that continues to prosper?

crfische

But I need examples of these lies that benefit society to make an informed decision because up to this point, I don't really see one.

And, it's a hypothesis. We have NO IDEA what a completely truthful society would look like. Hence, we don't know if it would flourish or not. Have you read Divergent? That faction seems to do just fine, the ones that are completely unable to lie.

Cantia

If I were your friend, told you I was hiding in the closet and you told the whacko killer that I was in the closet I'd kick your butt

I'm enjoying this debate, I like mattsdorothy discussion about how to measure the line. In my opinion there is a world of difference between white lies and serious lies.

crfische

I should say, too, and I've said it earlier as well,  that it seems to me, that people generally lie to benefit THEMSELVES, not to benefit society. Most people don't  lie thinking, Hmmm....how is this going to end war and bring world peace. They lie to avoid consequences for themselves.

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:e63f8ee1-0c3f-435a-9ec3-8604e2ed9781">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What do you think about lying? : I would use Kant to argue against all of that.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

Of course =) But its an opening paper thank god and was limited to three pages and I had to pick one side.  I would have loved to bring in various philosophers but I hate a page limit. 

I can really see both ways but I'll admit to being cynical and jaded.  I try to see the good in people but I usually fail.  I know that's a flaw but its from my experiences with the world.  Also, I'll admit to being selfish.  I know I am and I work very hard to be less so.....then again I don't think every selfish instinct is wrong.  But thats another philosophical discussion.

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:76b1e619-a1d7-4a6c-9c1a-392a37234c2e">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]I should say, too, and I've said it earlier as well,  that it seems to me, that people generally lie to benefit THEMSELVES, not to benefit society. Most people don't  lie thinking, Hmmm....how is this going to end war and bring world peace. They lie to avoid consequences for themselves.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

I 100% agree with this.

crfische

It is, but at the same time, you have to recognize your own biases and weakness and strengths in order to truly find the truth about things. Sometimes you have to put that aside and see what the bigger picture is. If I had ever written a college paper or grad school paper and used the words I FEEL, I would have been ripped to shreds. A lot of the time, it isn't about how YOU FEEL, it's what the facts are. And I would think that if you're forming an opinion, especially in law school, that it should be based on facts and not whims, ya know?

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:7546abbe-f500-49df-b269-17310657ffee">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]YOU THINK it is highly unlikely. Unless you have data to support that, you're going on your gut and your own personal experiences. Personally, I think people are generally grateful for someone thinking about them enough to get them a gift. Without data, our arguments are equally as valid. And when I ask how someone is doing, I really AM wondering. I don't just say it to say it. It just is an argument at this point if you are jaded by people and society and always expect the worst, or if you believe that people genuinely care about each other. Personally, I believe the latter.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

This is true that there is no proof to either side.  Its just philosophical debate....while awesome leaves a lot to be desired from a scientist or an economist who is used to dealing with data.  Thats why the law and ethics (as much as I love them) go against a part of my basic nature.  I love data, stats and "proof" I so rarely get it in this field.

aprovencher21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_think-lying?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:250c8096-c891-42b8-80f3-0ce00d4b2a22Post:59de7d53-fb3c-403a-b344-15abb27f51ed">Re: What do you think about lying?</a>:
[QUOTE]It is, but at the same time, you have to recognize your own biases and weakness and strengths in order to truly find the truth about things. Sometimes you have to put that aside and see what the bigger picture is. If I had ever written a college paper or grad school paper and used the words I FEEL, I would have been ripped to shreds. A lot of the time, it isn't about how YOU FEEL, it's what the facts are. And I would think that if you're forming an opinion, especially in law school, that it should be based on facts and not whims, ya know?
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

Sure but there are very few "facts" in the law or in philosophy.  Outside of economics and the law I'm struggling to think of anything that involves "facts' beyond a case by case fact pattern. Know what I mean?

crfische

See, my field goes a lot on gut instinct mixed with data and research and really trying to meet people where they are at, so I'm hypervigilant to understanding and knowing that how IIIII feel about something doesn't mean that that is how someone else feels about it, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm right.

So I tend to go more to that angle than what I think is right and good. My value set is different than someone elses, and so is yours. We can't assume they are all the same.

crfische

Oh yeah, I do. Especially if the assignment is supposed to be a gut reaction to how you feel about something, then that is different.