"I pledge allegiance"

katiewhompus

Ok, this post might get nutso so let me start off by saying that I really don't want anyone to be offended by me or think I am going to go all terror crazy.

How do you regard saying The Pledge of Allegiance? I'll be honest, I don't say it, and I haven't even since I discovered my feelings (or lack of) about God. When I go through the words I find that while it's a nice thought it's not accurate at all. We are a very divided nation on many issues, and we are certainly not all followers of God, and no, there's not liberty and justice for all even though we want it to be that way.
We have to stand for the pledge at school and I've noticed most staff (ie: no students in the room) will stand respectfully but will not say the words.
My crazy co-worker is the only one who will say the words, but she sounds so incredibly bored and disgusted when saying them that I just want to tell her not to bother.
It also makes me wonder if saying it every day is killing the sentiments behind it. If you repeat a phrase (and make people say it) every day for so long it just turns into something you have to do and I think most people get the attitude of "ok whatever, moment of silence, say the pledge, can we move on now?"

These are the things I think about on Saturday mornings.

Anysunrise

Wow, I'm embaressed. We do actually have a line that says "God keep our land glorious and free." My bad. I haven't heard it in 3 years, give me a break.

beatlesgirl25

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_pledge-allegiance?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:552b19f5-b40d-4cc9-8940-f55cddd76685Post:834433d4-0923-4183-b0b6-1579951c72ea">Re: "I pledge allegiance"</a>:
[QUOTE]I know what you mean. I remember being in elementary school and feeling sort of uncomfortable with it when we'd say it every morning. I love the sentiment behind it but I also do feel, especially with young children, that it gets lost or becomes less meaningful when you're just taught to repeat the words day after day. A while ago, I cam to terms with the word "God" being used in it. I am not religious in the sense that I follow any organized religion. But when I say "God" I just think of what God means to me which is just the grand design by which we all live. So even though that may not be what it originally means, that's how I take it when I say it. Same goes for "In God We Trust" on American currency. <strong>It may not be accurate, but as an adult, when I say it with others (at a baseball game or other event) I feel a sense of pride for my nation.</strong>
Posted by LessThanZero[/QUOTE]

I've had a similar experience with this and the national anthem growing up. I think it's partly from growing up as an Army brat and in DoDDS. We said the pledge every day in class, with hands over our hearts. I never even questioned it, which is kind of weird to think about now. But I still feel my heart stir when I hear the national anthem, and I think that will always be there.

katiewhompus

That's the weird thing LTZ, if I'm singing the Anthem at games or events I love it. Then again it's more of a story of our country verses a pledge so maybe that's part of it. I wonder if we just said it before assemblies (and not every day) it would make an impact on the kids.

kd.joseph

I've got nothing, I honestly haven't said the Pledge of Allegiance since school.

I do know that when my son was in school there was a big stink about it,because of the exact points you wrote about. And I have to say I agree. The subject also came up that a school is a government ran institution, and the whole separation of church and state should apply and children should not be forced to stand in school and say the pledge because they/their parents may not believe.

I hope that made sense. I hate trying to get my point across in the written word.

sarah0725

I will join in the liking of the national anthem, which is also weird, given complicated feelings about government outlined above. I hate it when terrible soloists sing it (and they are almost always terrible) but when I hear it played by a band or when it's sung in a group, I find it incredibly stirring. I think I blame the Olympics.

LessThanZero

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_pledge-allegiance?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:552b19f5-b40d-4cc9-8940-f55cddd76685Post:899f3047-6fd4-4071-ab2d-2bd013445169">Re: "I pledge allegiance"</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: "I pledge allegiance" : I've had a similar experience with this and the national anthem growing up. I think it's partly from growing up as an Army brat and in DoDDS. We said the pledge every day in class, with hands over our hearts. I never even questioned it, which is kind of weird to think about now. <strong>But I still feel my heart stir when I hear the national anthem, and I think that will always be there.</strong>
Posted by beatlesgirl25[/QUOTE]


Yeah, when I hear the national anthem being sung at a football game it generally brings tears to my eyes. it could mostly be due to how the singer sings it, but I still like it.

I watched the video from 1991 of Whitney Houston singing the national anthem and it gives me chills.

Here's the video: (Skip to about 1:15)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1QmeEdFOSc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1QmeEdFOSc</a>

[Deleted User]

As a mom, it's makes me feel proud to hear Ben say it. I know this is a bit different, but one of the proudest moments I've had so far with Ben was when he was able to sing every word of the Star Spangled Banner at a recent football game. It gave me chills. Do I think he understands the words and exactly what they mean? No. Do I think he understands that it represents pride in your country and oneness with others? Definitely. And that makes me a proud mommy.

beatlesgirl25

I hear you, KD. I think it's hard for some to have traditions threatened that are intended to be patriotic. But then again, it's "church and state" and all that jazz.

katiewhompus

I guess to me our National Anthem and the Pledge are two different things completely (yes I'm weird lol). I do wish we had one that was easier for people to sing though. My goodness can people butcher that song.

beatlesgirl25

OMG LTZ, I was seriously just about to post that version of the SSB. I remember watching that on live tv. Whitney was amazing back then.

[Deleted User]

I don't say the words, but I will stand. We had to say it every day in elementary school and everyone hated it. No one liked having to stand and repeat the same thing day after day. Even moreso that we got in trouble for not saying it (not to mention the fact that many kids probably have no idea what they are saying and are repeating it just because they are told they have to).

But, I do love the anthem. It's a great song and I love hearing it at games or other events, like the Olympics.

sarah0725

For some reason, the AA thing doesn't bother me, and I'm not sure I could explain why. Maybe it's because membership is usually voluntary, and participation or non-participation in the religious parts of AA is also voluntary. Sarah Palin's not running around giving speeches about how people who don't believe in having the serenity prayer in AA art un-American.

beatlesgirl25

Haha, good point on Palin, Sarah! I actually don't have a problem with AA being God-based either. I mean, it works for so many people. And there are non-religious adaptations, and Jewish adaptations, etc. that addicts use so that there's pretty much something for everyone. Your "higher power" can be things other than deities.

My personal struggle with it is that I am pulled to use the God-based model in treatment with my clients, to stay congruent with their AA-sponsored recovery. They don't know what my beliefs are. I just try to view it as helping them support their ideals, but it gets tricky sometimes and I feel borderline inauthentic.

sarah0725

Well, I think there's nothing wrong with counseling people to put faith in the things that will bring them through their dark times. I'm pretty darn non-religious, but I wouldn't tell someone who had just lost a loved one not to get through it by imagining that person in a better place. I don't think you need to feel like you're being inauthentic. If they ask what you believe, you could always tell them, but say that you feel that faith is highly personal, which it is.

beatlesgirl25

You are wise, Sarah.

sarah0725

So, we could also argue that those of us who want "under God" out are just trying to restore the pledge to its original historical wording.

But this is semantics for me because I'm anti-pledge altogether. I don't think I should have to publically prove my loyalty.

nda_roxybabe

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_pledge-allegiance?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:552b19f5-b40d-4cc9-8940-f55cddd76685Post:385a1f5e-e08c-42eb-b09c-620a3c273846">Re: "I pledge allegiance"</a>:
[QUOTE]So, we could also argue that those of us who want "under God" out are just trying to restore the pledge to its original historical wording. :) But this is semantics for me because I'm anti-pledge altogether. I don't think I should have to publically prove my loyalty.
Posted by sarah0725[/QUOTE]
This is true, we could :)

Blueyed228

Nothing about the pledge, God, or announcing you loyalty or patriotism outloud offends me. The country becoming so PC offends me.

JennaV26

This discussion kind of makes me sad because I'm a very traditional person and I like the pledge. Though when I'm really honest with myself I guess my problem isn't so much with the pledge as much as it is that I feel like these days there are so many people who don't take any pride in being American. Everyone is so hellbent on being an individual and looking out for themselves that until some tragedy happens no one bands together. We're all in such a constant battle to fight political issues that our country has become divided.  

I'm not saying that I think anyone is wrong, I certainly understand that if you don't have any religious beliefs you wouldn't feel comfortable saying "Under God," but I feel like if we take away the pledge we're taking a giant leap towards teaching our children that they don't need to have pride in their country.

JennaV26

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_pledge-allegiance?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:552b19f5-b40d-4cc9-8940-f55cddd76685Post:3df20a59-d081-49bb-8b60-a6f7b4d63fa0">Re: "I pledge allegiance"</a>:
[QUOTE]Nothing about the pledge, God, or announcing you loyalty or patriotism outloud offends me. The country becoming so PC offends me.
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with you more.

sarah0725

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_pledge-allegiance?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:552b19f5-b40d-4cc9-8940-f55cddd76685Post:04daa6b6-5859-4e59-8aaa-c7624cdd58a4">Re: "I pledge allegiance"</a>:
[QUOTE]This discussion kind of makes me sad because I'm a very traditional person and I like the pledge. Though when I'm really honest with myself I guess my problem isn't so much with the pledge as much as it is that I feel like these days there are so many people who don't take any pride in being American. Everyone is so hellbent on being an individual and looking out for themselves that until some tragedy happens no one bands together. We're all in such a constant battle to fight political issues that our country has become divided.   I'm not saying that I think anyone is wrong, I certainly understand that if you don't have any religious beliefs you wouldn't feel comfortable saying "Under God," but I feel like if we take away the pledge we're taking a giant leap towards teaching our children that they don't need to have pride in their country.
Posted by JennaV26[/QUOTE]

The issue isn't that we don't have pride in our country. It's that I'm tired of turning on the TV and hearing that only the people who live in certain areas of the country, or believe certain things, or have certain religious beliefs are "real" Americans. I take issue with that, because I believe that I have just as much a right to be here as anyone. I don't like the pledge because I feel that the groups who are calling me un-American just because I'm an east coast, city-dwelling atheist leftist are the same people who would feel that it's necessary for me to participate in the pledge. I'm generally not into indoctrination.

Blueyed228

I think teaching our kids that don't have to say it at all will just continue to divide future generations. If you don't want them to say "Under God" fine. But to refuse it all together doesn't make sense to me. I am also curious to know how people who claim to be patriotic but wont hang flags, say the Pledge, sing the National Anthem etc, show their patriotism?

JennaV26

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_pledge-allegiance?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:552b19f5-b40d-4cc9-8940-f55cddd76685Post:bba819c3-9692-4b4b-b63b-f2ba704514f8">Re: "I pledge allegiance"</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: "I pledge allegiance" : The issue isn't that we don't have pride in our country. It's that I'm tired of turning on the TV and hearing that only the people who live in certain areas of the country, or believe certain things, or have certain religious beliefs are "real" Americans. I take issue with that, because I believe that I have just as much a right to be here as anyone. I don't like the pledge because I feel that the groups who are calling me un-American just because I'm an east coast, city-dwelling atheist leftist are the same people who would feel that it's necessary for me to participate in the pledge. I'm generally not into indoctrination.
Posted by sarah0725[/QUOTE]

Everyone has a right to be here if they choose to be. If you truly feel the way you said than you shouldn't say the pledge or feel like you're somehow being forced to; however, every country has its traditions, saying the pledge is one of our's, and I don't think we should take it away from those of us who feel pride to say it so that we don't "offend" other people.

In our country practically everything you do is going to offend someone. I truly feel like these days we are bending over backwards to conform to everyone else's cultures so as not to piss anyone off but somehow anything that has to do with the American culture offends people. If you don't want to say the pledge, that's fine, don't say it, but IMO there is absolutely nothing offensive about the pledge with the possible exception of "Under God" which I could see offending people with no religion, but that's it.

LessThanZero

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_pledge-allegiance?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:552b19f5-b40d-4cc9-8940-f55cddd76685Post:862b6d87-35c3-475d-9778-e709e3f232a1">Re: "I pledge allegiance"</a>:
[QUOTE]I think teaching our kids that don't have to say it at all will just continue to divide future generations. If you don't want them to say "Under God" fine. But to refuse it all together doesn't make sense to me.<strong> I am also curious to know how people who claim to be patriotic but wont hang flags, say the Pledge, sing the National Anthem etc, show their patriotism?</strong>
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]


I don't have any problem with the flag or anthems, so I'm just throwing this out there.

All of those things are symbols and the only meaning they have is what people give them. I think that if someone is here, and a productive citizen who gives back to their country by helping others and not being detrimental to society, then that makes you patriotic....much more so than a serial killer who happens to have a flag hanging outside his house, you know?

sarah0725

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_pledge-allegiance?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:552b19f5-b40d-4cc9-8940-f55cddd76685Post:862b6d87-35c3-475d-9778-e709e3f232a1">Re: "I pledge allegiance"</a>:
[QUOTE]I think teaching our kids that don't have to say it at all will just continue to divide future generations. If you don't want them to say "Under God" fine. But to refuse it all together doesn't make sense to me.<strong> I am also curious to know how people who claim to be patriotic but wont hang flags, say the Pledge, sing the National Anthem etc, show their patriotism?</strong>
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

Well, I do it by having satanic rituals in my basement, obviously.

Really? Really? Patriotism is a lot more than outward signs of pageantry. Tom Paine once said that it is the duty of a patriot to protect his country from its government, so maybe some of us do it by staying involved and aware of what's going on, and participating in the political process, and doing what we can to ensure our future as a nation.

Blue, I know we don't see eye to eye on politics, but really, this is the kind of culture war stuff that divides people and keeps us from talking about real issues. Nobody should be worrying about whether or not somebody else is expressing enough outward patriotism - it's un-Christian, for one thing. I seem to remember something in the Bible about how the Pharisees prayed, versus how people are supposed to pray.

Blueyed228

Sarah i never said it needs to be outward or by doing the things i listed. I just asked how. Im not here to judge anyones patriotism. I just asked a question.

katiewhompus

I understand how people who believe in God aren't offended by it being in the pledge, but I don't understand how you can't see if annoying/offending people who don't believe in Christianity. Or how it serves to demonstrate that there is a very real Church and State issue in our country. I've spent my entire life being told that I'm unpatriotic because I'm not Christian, or that I'm not a good American. I pay my taxes, I stand respectfully during the pledge, Anthem, etc.
We fly an American flag because H served his country and because it's the country we both live in. Just because I think the pledge should be rethought doesn't mean I don't deserve to say I like this country, you know?

I also think the part that bothers me the most is the required repitition of a phrase, because I feel it really does take away the meaning. It's no longer something they are proud to say, but something they have to say. I know I'm not saying it clearly but I just think constant repitition turns it into words that mean nothing.

Beatles, I think people should be offered whatever comforts them. I love the Serenity Prayer but just take out the word God when I say it. I do wish certain programs were a bit more open to non-Christians though.

sucrets4

If it was good enough for our founding fathers, it's good enough for me.

No?

I'm with sarah about the "under God" being added.

As a teacher, I had to say it every morning if I was in class.  Even though I don't believe in God, I still said it.  It just wasn't worth it to open that can of worms in an MS class.  In HS, no one said it, we just all stood and put our hands on our chests.

When I'm in my room and no one can see me, I don't stand. 

NatandIsaac

Around 6th grade, I began thinking of it as a nice little "thanks America, for paying my education."

Whether it's the Pledge, or any other method, I do think it is important to inculcate children with a concept of ownership and love for their country--that way they'll want to vote. I hope that children are being taught to criticize what's wrong with our country, and also desire to heal it.

katiewhompus

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_pledge-allegiance?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:552b19f5-b40d-4cc9-8940-f55cddd76685Post:e01071bc-03e5-4f03-b25a-5982ab4c09fc">Re: "I pledge allegiance"</a>:
[QUOTE]Around 6th grade, I began thinking of it as a nice little "thanks America, for paying my education." Whether it's the Pledge, or any other method, I do think it is important to inculcate children with a concept of ownership and love for their country--that way they'll want to vote. I hope that children are being taught to criticize what's wrong with our country, and also desire to heal it.
Posted by NatandIsaac[/QUOTE]

There are things wrong with our country? Pretty sure that's not being taught in high school...and I'm only half joking.