The NFP debate/discussion

canary11

If you're not feeling very sure about NFP, perhaps we need a separate thread. I have posted about my great experiences with NFP a few times and it always gets hijacked by some sort of debate. It is obviously something that people feel very passionate and/or confused about. That is very understandable. In fact, I felt very confused about it prior to doing research, taking the CCL class, and discussing it with a close friend who is Catholic. There's lots of ladies on this site who have very good info and are happy to share. I think that this thread would be a better place to share/discuss/debate than my other post.

C&Rin09

Jumping in... I don't feel confused about it, and am clear on the reasons that the church gives.  However, I really do not like the church interferring in the bedrooms of anyone.  I was really uncomfortable during our pre-marital counselling because of this. I will not be practicing NFP, and while I think it is a great way in theory to both avoid pregnancy and TTC, I cannot have a virgin in a pointy hat tell me how to go about my business in the bedroom, thankyouverymuch. But I'm a really bad Catholic, so...

Calypso1977

i agree, there is a lot of confusion about it as well as negativity.  I also have found in my research that many practice the method - not just catholics or religious people.i chose to self-teach myself the method, and have asked many questions on here.  i'm not sure i'd feel comfortable discussing it with someone other than a medical professional either.  even then, my doctor was not all that receptive to it, and basically just said that it didnt matter since "now that i'm married" it wouldnt be that "big of a deal" if i got pregnant, and that being older (32) i should think about it anyway.  i took that to mean "i dont think the method works, so prepare to get pregnant if you go off of these pills".that said, i'm on my 4th chart, and we have had less sex as i've been trying to nail down the regularity of my charts, but neither one of us has really missed it either, and have found other ways to show/share intimacy. 

blackfire5th

My parents used NFP for over 20 years and only planned and had my sister and I, so yeah, I'd say it works! My mother did have to go on pills because her body went kind of wacko and tried go through menopause, but not really, it was weird. I can understand if you don't want to use NFP, don't do it. It's between you and God. Not my business, but I do dislike when people say that the Church has no business in the bedroom. Why the heck not?! They are telling you how they think you should live your life based on their interpretations of God's word, so why does the bedroom and sex get excluded! I do understand that NFP is natural, I just think it is odd for the Church to say this type of birth control is okay and this isn't. But that is just me. And sorry Canary for hijacking your thread! I was just trying to give you another point of view to your predicament. I promise I wasn't trying to start a debate!

lap256

I'm on my 2nd cycle of NFP (well, really FAM since we use condoms during the fertile period). DH likes it because it's supported by the Catholic church, I like it because the 'no-hormones' aspect is pretty in line with my crunchy hippie liberal leanings. I've found it to be pretty easy to practice, but I don't really have an 'ew, gross' response to cervical mucas.That being said, I absolutely abhor the couple to couple league. I found my teaching couple to be holier-than-though pretentious snobs. the league promotes telling students that every time they take a pill, they're having an abortion (NOT medically true). they try to convert people using petty scare tactics rather than sharing the positives of NFP. I thought it might just have been my couple, but we went to an engaged encounter, and nearly every engaged couple said they had the same experience! DH and I are contemplating becoming a teaching couple when we feel we've had enough experience (and successful cycles!).In the end, whatever works for the couple is what's best. In my opinion, the church would rather have a contracepting couple in a happy, strong marriage than a couple where one partner manipulates the other into using NFP.

IrishBrideND

We are considering it after the baby comes. I don't want to go back on hormones. I won't be doing it for religious reasons.

Calypso1977

the league promotes telling students that every time they take a pill, they're having an abortion (NOT medically true). its not true that every time you take the pill it causes abortion.  however, it is true that it CAN sometimes cause an abortion, becuase the pill makes for a "hostile environment" in which a fertilized egg cannot survive - meaning, sometimes while on the pill you WILL ovulate, that egg may be fertilzed, and then becuase the uterine lining is not thick enough, the fertilized egg cannot implant.  FAM is not the same as NFP becuase of the use of condoms.  Condoms are not allowed by the Church.

Calypso1977

irish!  holy crap!  you are pregnant!!??!!  congrats!!!!

lap256

Calypso - actually, whether or not the pill can create a hostile uterine environment is an interesting debate within the scientific community. Here's a position paper from the American Association of Pro-life OB/GYNs that concludes "there is no evidence that shows that the endometrial changes produced by COCs (combined oral contraceptives) contribute to failure of implantation of conceptions" http://www.aaplog.org/PositionsAndPapers/OralContraceptiveControversy.aspx?fileID=1For completeness, I'm also linking a position paper from the same group that argues that contraceptives can be abortifacient. http://www.aaplog.org/PositionsAndPapers/OralContraceptiveControversy.aspx?fileID=2My pet peeve is when people (usually politicians!) demand an answer for a scientific problem that is not solved yet. This is how bad science gets circulated, and many political decisions are based on facts that may or may not be true, and can't currently be answered with the technology we have. Finally, the church's decision on contraception was not primarily based on whether it could be abortifacient, rather, (from my weak understanding), it was more based on the idea that contraception alters a part of the body from a working to a non-working state. That's why I'm personally fine with condoms, because I'm not altering my body. I know it's against the church teachings, but I'm not a strong catholic, and believe in plenty other things that the church doesn't agree with either.

Calypso1977

i can see how it would be open to debate, because, obviously, there are women who get pregnant on the pill and carry the baby to term - thus, they clearly had no problem with the egg implanting. however, for me, i personally wouldnt want to take the chance of intentionally causing an abortion now that i'm aware its a possibilty (i was on it for years and had always gone on the assumption that it prevents ovulation, and then learned it does not always prevent it).

Calypso1977

lap - the links dont work, nor can i cut and paste....

alliecarrie41

i just will not leave something that life-changing to fate/Gob what have you... if i'm not using a contraceptive, i'm assuming i'm going to get knocked up.  my pre-cana touched on this but did not preach at all, and were very open to all thoughts and debates, so i don't have a negative feeling towards what the church does or does not push.  a high school friend is preggo with her 4th.  i recently wrote her saying how impressed and proud i was of her, and how i couldn't believe she was on 4, wow, how does she do it? and she replied simply she didn't plan on it, any of them... it was God's doing.  um, sorry, but that is just a case of poor judgement imo, not a higher being's wish.. this is what in my mind gives NFP and similar a bad rap.

canary11

I see why the church teaches NFP, and understand it. That said, I am VERY happy that the church introduced me to it- and it is also because it is natural and healthy. Here's another bonus- I am a nurse, I have seen 30-year-old moms die from cervical cancer that went unnoticed. I like to think that I would notice that SOMETHING was wrong before it would get to that. I could be wrong, but I am assessing myself daily and really know my body. I have been doing this for 7 cycles and I am amazed at the beauty of the body's reproductive system. (i am sooo flipping corny, yes) And irish- congrats!

blackfire5th

I agree Canary, I would hope that by being very aware of you body, you would notice any major changes like a tumor. Even though I have chosen to be on birth control (best preventer of ovarian cancer and it has made my cramps go away, hurray to a normal period!) I still do practice NFP to make sure that I am not ovulating. I like knowing that the hormones are making my body all better and that I won't get pregnant.

Jay&Marissa

I like knowing that the hormones are making my body all betterHuh?Personally, I like the communication that results from using it--it's not *my* fertility, it's *our* fertility. And though we haven't put it into practice yet, I think knowing exactly when we can and cannot have sex will improve our "love life" in the long run...especially since he is going to med school

mbcdefg

The thing I don't like about Catholic/religious family planning is when people say, "If God wants/doesn't want us to have a baby, He'll make it happen." Usually in the context of people not being prepared for a baby but having sex during a fertile time anyway. I DO think that life is a miracle, but I think that only goes so far. My take is that God doesn't control all that much of our lives, which is why we have intelligence and Free Will. God's not magically implanting a fetus in us, or magically preventing fertilization should we pray about not being ready for it. I think that a lot of people out there (collectively, I'm not talking about anyone in particular) need to take responsibility for their own family choices, instead of either blaming or crediting God for them. None of us can really say how big or small a role God has in our lives and fertility, since we'll never know for sure, but I think we can all agree that it ultimately comes down to our own choices in the end.

blackfire5th

"I like knowing that the hormones are making my body all better Huh?" I'm just curious, what about this statement confuses you? There are medical reasons to use hormones.

Calypso1977

practicing NFP does not put it in God's hands, except maybe in the instance where you are actually trying to get pregnant.  If you want a baby and you shag like mad during your fertile phase, you may or may not get pregnant.  the person with the friend on #4 clearly is not practicing NFP, or if she's trying to, she's either doing it incorrectly or sloppy, taking no care to abstain during the fertile phase, or taking chances by having sex during a time where there may be some doubt as to her fertility.  Our rule is when in doubt, dont do it. BC of any type (pill, nfp, condoms, etc.) fails most often due to user error rather than a defect in the device/method. 

mbcdefg

Sorry, let me clarify ... I wasn't speaking about NFP in particular (which is my fault for posting this in a NFP thread). I was referring more to the people you're talking about, and following up on Allie's comments, that it annoys me when people out there credit (or blame) God with all these extra kids. Like, when the Duggars go on TV and say, "We'll gladly have more children if God decides to give us more!" Well, honey, when you're clearly not peracticing any kind of birth control or NFP then it's really not God "giving" you these children. They seem to genuinely want all those kids and they seem able to care for them and raise them to be good people, so great, but to me that's more their choice than God just deciding that they ought to have 19 kids.

Calypso1977

ok, yes, i think that's what you were trying to say before, i just wanted to clarify.there are some uber religious folk that actually think more kids = more devout.  meaning, i have 6 kids so i must be more/better catholic than you who only has a few or none.  i do not understand that thought process at all.  even if you love children, and have more than enough money, its simply not healthy (IMO, anyway) to be constantly pregnant.  i have heard (not sure its true) but if you get pregnatn only a few months after giving birth, that you can be considered high risk since your body has not fully recovered yet.to me it seems irresponsible to keep getting pregnant if there is a chance that you may be putting yourself in danger, thus leaving your children motherless all in a quest to have as many as you can because for some reason you think it makes you more religious.

amberoye

I plan to begin NFP as soon as my next period and am very happy that I was introduced to the concept. I have been somewhat criticized by my family when telling them our choice to use NFP because we are young and perhaps not quite financially comfortable to have a child right now. They think NFP is outdated and that I'm just 'leaving it up to God'. I personally find it quite sad that they are encouraging me to sin and to not share my fertility with my husband but I don't know what to explain them except the facts of figures of how it works. They seem completely dumb-founded by the fact that a woman is only fertile for a certain period of time...then again, none of them are college educated either...

Calypso1977

amber, one of my best friends gave me an eyeroll and said "good luck with that" when i told her.  we actually havent told anyone else becuase BC of any kind is a very private matter, IMO.  also, while i'd love to sing the praises of NFP, i honeslty cant deal wtih peoples judgments, etc.

blackfire5th

I am so glad that you ladies feel that you shouldn't "leave it in God's hands." All I have been hearing since we started our marriage prep/NFP classes was how wrong anyform of birth control was and how you should just have all the children that God wants you to have. I was beging to struggle with this idea, feeling that I must have many children, but I knew that the more children we have, the lower their quality of life would be (i.e. less traveling, not being able to send them to college, etc.)

Jay&Marissa

"I like knowing that the hormones are making my body all better Huh?" I'm just curious, what about this statement confuses you? There are medical reasons to use hormones.Sorry, my mistake. I read what you wrote out of context (for some reason I skimmed and didn't catch that it was a preventative measure)

canary11

Amber and Calypso- I understand and know that the criticism will likely continue. I am strong enough to handle it. Most of my friends know that I am doing NFP and many of them just do not get it- and do not want to take the time to understand and "get it". Thankfully, I have my mom's support, even though she is not Catholic. She's a bit of a hippie, though, and encourages all that is organic and natural. Have you seen your OBGYN since you've made your decision? My OBGYN put down that we'll be using the "rhythm" method, which irritated me. As an OBGYN, why are they so well-versed in BCPs, IUDs, etc etc but not NFP?!? ($$$)Someday, I hope we have insurance that will cover a NFP doc.

Calypso1977

canary, i did talk to my doctor prior to starting but only with regard to quesitons abotu what my body would do once i stopped the hormones (i'd be on the pill for just over 10 years).  she didnt try to sway me not to, btu i betcha anything if i was still single or a lot younger (i'm 32) that she woudl ahve been doing a lot more talk abotu "are you sure" and "unwanted/unplanned pregnancies are difficult".  Too bad, becuase my doctor is wonderful and i really like her, but she's definteily not on  board with charting.i'm on my 4th chart.  first two seemed normal, i appeared to ovulate, my temps and fluids last month were all over and i cannot definitively say whether i ovulated.  i'm also experiencing a spotting issue just before every period, which from what i've read can be problematic if/when i decide i do want to get pregnat - i may have implantation issues.  i hope after a certain number of cycles this stops.  but, its so mcuh better to find out abotu this stuff NOW, rather than when we are actually trying.

canary11

I agree with you Calypso, about finding this stuff out now before TTC. I am on my 8th chart and finally think I am getting the hang of how to assess my CM. I have noticed that certain foods/meds affect it bigtime! So, when you spot, are you considering that Day 1 of the next chart? I am not sure how I would approach that. And, does that mean that your LP is too short for implantation?

Calypso1977

i am usually getting 3-4 days of spotting, then my period starts the next day or it skips one day, then it starts.  i've had 1.5 days of period bleeding, then it ends - this is even shorter than when i was on the pill, which usually gave me 4 day periods, although very light.  i dotn count the spotting as day 1 becuase usually my temp is still elevated well above 98.  i have experienced a big plummet in my temp the day my period starts ot the day before, usually down to the low-mid 97's.  i think becuase its clearly spotting, i shouldnt count it as day one.  not sure if that's the right approach tho, but since the temps seem to be telling me something, i'm going with my theory.

Calypso1977

And, does that mean that your LP is too short for implantation? yes, based on what i've read, or at least it may be difficult of implantation, not necessarily entirely impossible.

cello10star

I'm about to go to my first meeting with the wedding coordinator at my church, and I am nervous about discussion of topics like this. I'm so glad to see that I'm not the only one who has trouble following every church teaching. No one is perfect- I struggle with this teaching and others, but some I can accept without problem. Thank goodness I'm not the only one who finds this so uncomfortable!

Truchana

I think it's a personal decision. If you want to do NFP, go for it, it you want BC, go for it, if you want straight condoms go for it.  I 150% agree with the person that does not believe you should just "put it in God's hands." That statement is ridiculous to me.  I don't really agree with the church's stand point against Birthcontrol but that's why I don't follow it.