what determines "financially able to have kids"

Calypso1977

there are some interesting threads taking place on Etiquette about staying home, versus working, etc. and the role that money plays and in particular the second income.  got me thinking.

for those of us who practice NFP, i know we are supposed to use it to TTA only under certain circumstances.  otherwise, we really should be open to life.  i know that financial reasons (as well as psychological/physical reasons) are two of the primary motives for TTA that are "allowed" (cant think of the others at the moment).  however, financial reasons can be somewhat subjective. 

for example, i feel that my H and I could easily afford to feed and clothe 3 or 4 kids, and while our house would be a tad cramped, we could make do with kids sharing rooms, etc.  but i feel at this point, we could not afford daycare for even just 1 child.  staying home is not an option as it takes both of our incomes to make our mortgage (we live in metro boston and while our house is very small and simple, it wasnt cheap).

my sister is of the mindset that she would give up her house/mortgage and move to a cheaper rented apartment if it meant she could be home with her kids.  not sure i agree with that, but those are her thoughts based on what she feels is best for her and her family.

we could also bite the bullet and simply live a life of debt, which we really dont want to do.  are you "financially able", based upon church or god's standards to have kids if it means debt, since you have the means to get a credit card, and therefore an avenue for having kids even if it might not be the best?

i wish i had the kind of faith to believe that "god will provide" but i just don’t.  I’m afraid to take that risk.   what are everyone else's thoughts on this interpretation?

Riss91

I don't think going into debt and living off credit cards is an expected avenue. That's such an easy way to drag the whole family into potential bankruptcy which I think isn't what we're meant to do.

I personally think that living more simply in order to start a family is expected to some extent. I'm not one of those people that say "Oh, but we still want to travel to Europe, so we're waiting another year". But I do think that waiting until you have reliable stable income (whether it is from one or two of you) that can cover a modest budget is okay.

I myself am starting to question whether we need to move to a lower cost area to allow us to start sooner than later (we both want me to be able to SAH, though I'm feeling like that might not be a possibility). Right now I am for the most part the sole breadwinner until my husband catches his big break. He's a writer, so he has freelance income, but it's nothing you can predict or rely on and he is working on a fellowship, which provides some income, but that ends in September. Our original plan is to start trying next summer, assuming he is able to pick up a reasonable salary. My income alone can cover 85% of the bills before children, but without putting anything into savings. I don't feel like that its responsible to start trying until my husband's career is up-and-running.

It's such a tough question. I am also one that likes to have all my ducks in a row and feel extra-ready and have everything planned, so it's hard for me to just "go for it" and let things work themselves out. And many people do have children without having planned a thing - without decent jobs, with tons of credit card debt. They somehow manage, and I have no idea how they do it.

jen2013

I definately don't think that you should have debt or credit cards as an option. If you and your H are comfortable with the way your life is right now and arent in any rush to have kids, then keep living the way you are and maybe start putting away money little by little, that way when y'all are ready to make a family you will have some extra money saved up, if your stillwanting to live in the home you are in currently.
I think sometimes you may have to get a not so high priced home, in order to start your family, but I think that all comes with being ready for starting a family. It doesnt mean that you will say, be in that house forever, ubt just until you see how your finances are and then see where or what to do from there.
I think being financially ready is subjective. Everyones situations are different. I think if you look at all your finances and you are your H feel you have enough money to start a family, then go for it. If not, then I would suggest just save and review other options.

caitriona87

Well, I am of the type to just "go for it," lol, at least to a degree. When we first got married my husband was in school and working part time, and I was working two jobs. We also had crappy insurance that would've left us pretty much cleaned out and/or in debt from the birth costs. So we TTA'd during that time. After he graduated, he very quickly found a job with good benefits, etc. Not enough to allow me to SAH (which we'd always planned on) but enough that we could live much more comfortably. It still took me a couple months to be able to let go, but I got pregnant on our second cycle of not-TTA.

For us the definition of being able to afford to have a child differs from how most in our society see it, I think. We won't be able to take huge vacations every year or eat out much, buy the latest electronic gadgets, etc. But we make enough that we don't have to worry about having a roof over our heads or food, and can afford a few small extras without going into debt. (I don't think anyone is advocating just living on debt--that could easily put your family in jeopardy.)

We actually do plan to move to a better area partly for the lower costs of living (especially housing) but have other reasons also--much larger market for H's company, family is there, etc. But me being a SAHM is a major goal of ours and although it can't happen right away, we're going to do everything we can to make it possible in the near future.

I think the answer depends on the individual circumstances, which is why the Church doesn't really put forth specific examples of valid reasons to postpone childbearing. A person knows in his/her heart whether their reasons are selfish or not, if they're honestly and prayerfully discerning. When we stopped postponing, I could've still come up with a zillion reasons but I deep down I knew they weren't serious enough. It helped that my husband was more ready, lol.

The only other thing I'd say (since, geez, I've written enough already...) is that I'd look at how long it would take for a situation like you described (being able to afford kids but not daycare or SAH) to resolve--are there pay increases in the foreseeable future for either spouse, or is it going to be a long-term quandary? If it would likely resolve in a year or so, I'd be comfortable TTA during that time. If it would be more like 5 years until daycare or SAH was in the budget, I don't think I'd feel comfortable doing so and would start looking at alternatives. That's just me, and as I said each couple must discern for themselves, possibly with a priest's guidance if there's not a clear answer.

Theresa626

I don't agree with your sister.  Being in debt is not being a good parent and if you take the Bible super literally, it doesn't sit well with the faith either.  Debt is something you should only have in moderation with good debt, like mortgages and college loans.  Credit card debt is like dealing with the devil (literally and figuratively  In addition, your children deserve to have the best possible care you can give them.  Living in some cheap apt where you're struggling to pay the bills and put food on the table doesn't qualify.  In addition, when I rented, my rent went up every single year, sometimes 100 dollars a month.  Moving is really really expensive and you have to pay non refundable deposits.  So, renting isn't an answer because even if it's cheap the first year, it will be more expensive than the house after five years unless you're living in a mansion of sorts.  When it raises and there's no where else to go, what can you do if you don't make more money each year?  At least you can get a fixed mortgage on a house and it is an investment.

My personal rules for being financially able are much higher.  I wanted to own a home that was large enough for one or two kids to reasonably fit.  I wanted at least 6,000 dollars saved up to pay for hospital stay, medical costs, furniture and baby supply costs and other unexpected costs the first year.  I also want us both to make enough money that we can pay all of our bills, afford day care for the child and be able to put food on the table, clothes on the kid and put some in savings.  We also both have to have careers that are at least somewhat stable. Honestly, I started on these savings goals when we were just engaged.  

agapecarrie

I dont' think living a life of debt is the answer, however, there is some consideration of moving to a less expensive area.

If we look at the bigger picture and ask all the souls/saints in heaven if they would have preferred not to have existed vs a poor life I know that all of them are glad they existed, and lived a poor life, which means they are rich in heaven.

bel138

I agree with everyone else. Going into (bad) debt to have children is not the answer. If you feel that moving to a less expensive area would make children possible, however, I would consider that.

I personally have a number in my head that we must have saved up before TTC, which is "baby fund" that is separate from our retirement and "6 month emergency fund" in case of job loss or illness. And I want to buy a home first. I don't know if that's "selfish" according to the church, but I feel like it's the most responsible and prudent thing to do. Also, right now is just a really bad time. I don't feel like internship is a healthy time to carry a pregnancy. My sleep and eating patterns are horrible, and I wouldn't want that to impact the health of my child.

[Deleted User]

I agree, going into debt is not the answer. H and I talk about this quite frequently bc while I would love to have kids right now, I know we are not set up financially to do so.

I strongly believe in living within your means and if that means a smaller house or less material things, then so be it. Since we just got married, we are in the process of getting our savings built back up so we can save and buy a house. I also need to get back into school. Right now H and I are career minded people so we can be in a good position for me to be a SAHM at least for the early years, which I think is very important having been in the early childhood field.  We would also like to be closer to home as we don't really know anyone down here still and don't have any family remotely close.

I know life does not always work out according to my plans (bc believe me I like to have all my ducks in a row and everything planned to the "T") but H keeps me in line reminding me that God has higher plans for us.

mica178

Proverbs 24:27.  Business first, then house.

If all goes to plan, we're going to try to work for a few more years before TTC.  We're also looking to move to a less expensive part of the country so that we can stretch our earnings a little farther.  Life happens, and we can't always avoid debt, but we shouldn't expect or plan to be irresponsible.

Calypso1977

its so tough!

we live simply now....no big vacations, i clip coupons and never pay full price for clothes, we dont buy coffee at dunkin donuts every day, we save for retirement, and we drive old cars that are paid for.  our friends and family always say how "cheap" we are because we dont like to spend anything, and very carefully think about purchases.

moving to a new area isnt possible.  we are settled in our careers here and both of our families are here.  it wouldnt make sense to move away.  we are both public servants and while we have very, very secure jobs, we will never be big ticket earners.

part of our problem too is that we're older (33 and 36).  had we met sooner, and gotten married in our 20's, we would have had the luxury of having longer to save/plan.   while i had done a decent job on my own, H was a spender prior to us meeting and getting engaged so he didnt have much to show for his hard work when we met.

i'm so torn.  there are days we both would like to have a child, but then reality sets in and the expense overwhelms us.  we have great insurance plans, so the actual pre-natal care and birth would not cost much at all.  i also have more than enough sick time on the books so that any maternity leave i take would be paid.

argh, i dont know what to do other than continue to think and pray.

catarntina

I have been thinking about this too.  I am not yet married, but thinking about if we can afford children right after we're married.  I have a two bedroom townhouse, and if we put a bunch of stuff into storage (I don't have a garage, basement, or attic storage.  Just closet space), we'd have room for a nursery.  But then the storage shed would have another monthly expense in addition to a baby.  Like Riss, I will also be the breadwinner in the family.  So me staying home to raise the kids is NOT an option.  We would be destitue after 3 months, and I don't think I could afford the daycare price for an infant if I continued to work.  I would love to move back to my hometown, which is a much cheaper part of the country, but my job is here.  FI's job is here.

My NFP instructor told us an interesting story.  Two people were getting married.  The woman practicing NFP realized she'd be fertile on their wedding night, but they weren't quite ready to have children.  They prayed and decided that they would consumate their marriage on their wedding night and leave it in God's hands.  She did get pregnant on her wedding night.  A few years later, she tried to conceive again, but something was wrong and she could no longer have children.

I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. It's really a tough pickle, and I think the only thing you can really do is pray about it.

mica178

My FMIL was told when she found herself accidentally pregnant, she was told that she should terminate the pregnancy or she would likely be wheelchair bound because of pre-existing health conditions.  This was terrifying to her as she already had two very young children who she was struggling to take care of in her already less-than-perfect physical condition.  Everyone she confided in (her family, her physicians, etc.) told her to have the abortion for the sake of her health, except for my FFIL, who told her that they would find a way to make everything work.

She prayed, and while she made her decision, she and my FFIL started making changes in their lives to see if they could reduce the health risks.  Even though finances were tight, they hired help with my FI's older brothers so that my FMIL would have time to take care of her health.  This decreased my FMIL's daily stress level and allowed her to enjoy early motherhood with my FBILs.  The dedication my FFIL showed to my FMIL during this time strengthened their marriage.

Thank God she chose to continue the pregnancy, because that baby grew up to be my FI.  And the quack who told her that she'd be crippled by delivering was absolutely wrong.  My FMIL had two more children and is still walking, years and years later.

All I can say is pray.  God takes care of all of us if we trust Him.  What seems impossible often isn't, but we close our minds to alternative choices.  Prayer can open our eyes to avenues we never considered.  That's not to say that we act irresponsibly and expect to put childbirth and raising costs on credit cards, but very little in this life is as fixed as we think they are.

boogerbearoriginal

We are struggling with this same battle. We've been married for 3 months now and have just bought a house. While we can afford our current lifestyle, which is in no way extravagant, a child would put a significant financial burden on day to day expenses. Plus with 20% down payment on the home - our savings has been diminished significantly.

With what we make right now, it would be impossible to pay our bills on one salary - on top of that the average cost of day care in our area is about $750/mo. which is actually relatively inexpensive compared to some areas. And that's not accounting for clothes, diapers, etc that a baby needs. While I can do without a new shirt, the baby grwos - and quickly - out of her clothes.

If we had a baby today, we'd be forced, at this point, to utilize assistance from family who we would of course pay too but would be more affordable.

Could we make it work? Yes - but it would be a struggle. Which is why we are waiting about a year or so to save, etc. I do not think the church would ever encourage a family to incur debt to have a family. Obviously there may be times that debt has to be incurred because their is no other choice - ie both parent's lose their jobs, health emergency, etc.

It is a very tough thing to decide when is the best time to bring another life into this world. Lots of prayer and maybe guidance from a Priest will help you. I know its helped us with many decisions!

Theresa626

Calypso, from what you've written, it sounds like having a child is really important to you.  If this is case, I think you could make it work.  God works in mysterious ways.  You don't have to give the child a wealth of things, just make sure there's a room with a bed and food on the table and love.  Your jobs are secure and you can have the health costs taken care of so that is very important.  Beyond that, just look at what you could do to somehow make it work.  Even changing your hours at work so someone is always home might do the trick if they'll let you.  

caitriona87

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_determines-financially-able-kids?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c6abc943-1385-4b53-bf86-37409b0d30e9Post:12ab1fb0-9534-4c6f-9955-f8cff5f8c799">Re: what determines "financially able to have kids"</a>:
[QUOTE]My FMIL was told when she found herself accidentally pregnant, she was told that she should terminate the pregnancy or she would likely be wheelchair bound because of pre-existing health conditions.  This was terrifying to her as she already had two very young children who she was struggling to take care of in her already less-than-perfect physical condition.  Everyone she confided in (her family, her physicians, etc.) told her to have the abortion for the sake of her health, except for my FFIL, who told her that they would find a way to make everything work. She prayed, and while she made her decision, she and my FFIL started making changes in their lives to see if they could reduce the health risks.  Even though finances were tight, they hired help with my FI's older brothers so that my FMIL would have time to take care of her health.  This decreased my FMIL's daily stress level and allowed her to enjoy early motherhood with my FBILs.  The dedication my FFIL showed to my FMIL during this time strengthened their marriage. Thank God she chose to continue the pregnancy, because that baby grew up to be my FI.  And the quack who told her that she'd be crippled by delivering was absolutely wrong.  My FMIL had two more children and is still walking, years and years later. All I can say is pray.  God takes care of all of us if we trust Him.  What seems impossible often isn't, but we close our minds to alternative choices.  Prayer can open our eyes to avenues we never considered.  That's not to say that we act irresponsibly and expect to put childbirth and raising costs on credit cards, but very little in this life is as fixed as we think they are.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

That's a beautiful story. =D The bishop of my diocese has a similar one--he was born during the depression and his parents were on public assistance. A social worker came by with their cards (vouchers for coal, rice, etc.) and on finding out his mother was pregnant, told her that unless she aborted (or "took something to bring on her period" as they called it in those days) they would cut off their assistance. His mother was really distraught, obviously, as they already had other children. When his father came home and she told him what happened he said something like "Let them take away our cards. God will provide." And this baby grew up to be a bishop. So, I thought that story was pretty cool too. Examples of faith like that are really inspiring.

wallyandkristin

Tough tough question.  On one hand you should always live within your means.  And on the other hand, as my dad told me, there will never be a "good" time to have kids.  As long as you have health insurance, some savings, a safe home and a loving husband, then go for it! Life happens and you make it work. 

GulfCoaster

Tough question.

I think that many couples nowadays have high standards for what constitutes "financially able" to have children.  If you go over to the Money Matters board on the Nest, for instance, you'll find a lot of posters who think that a couple shouldn't TTC until they max out their 401(k)s and IRAs for the year, have at least one year of expenses in savings, have at least a three-bedroom house, and be able to afford daycare at the best daycare center in town.

Quite honestly, I think that point of view is over-the-top and a bit ridiculous.  I'm not saying couples should go into debt to have children.  But if you look at what children actually need -- a place to sleep, a safe environment, food, and diapers -- the cost of children is significantly lower.  Sharing a bedroom is unlikely to scar a child for life. 

My MIL tells stories about growing up after WWII, one of five children living in a three-bedroom house.  She shared a bedroom with her grandmother and, eventually, her younger sister.  Her father worked on the railroad, spending many evenings and weekends building his own additions to the house.  Her mother raised the children and tended a large garden to stretch their food dollars.   Things were cramped, and money was tight.  But they were then, and are now, one of the closest, most loving families that I've ever met -- a real witness to Christ's love to everyone they meet.  I treasure every holiday that we go to my husband's grandparents' little self-built home.  It's not large, but it's filled with love, and you can feel the love and warmth from the moment you walk in.

All of which is to say, sometimes I think that Americans' priorities have shifted in recent years, and we've learned to value money over family.  As Catholics, we are called to be open to life, and to TTA only for compelling reasons.  What is compelling is a decision that each couple has to make prayerfully, but sometimes I think that we (and I include myself in this!) need to apply a bit more skepticism to finances and the level of financial concerns that constitute a compelling reason to TTA.

Calypso1977

gulf, i agree with your thoughts.

i wish we had an expensive habit we could cut out which would magically produce the money needed for daycare.  i know one couple (who is childless) that spends about $20K a year on vacations.  just cutting that out, would make daycare possible.  i know other couples that eat out every saturday night, get weekly pedis/manis and go to teh salon every six weeks for an expensive haircut.  to me, those would be obvious situations where "we cant afford kids" isnt entirely accurate.

most kids i knew growing up shared rooms with a sibling.  today, it seems no one shares rooms.  i actually think sharing a room is good!  had i shared a room growing up, i might have adjusted easier to dorm life and married life in terms of compromising, etc.

GulfCoaster

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_determines-financially-able-kids?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:c6abc943-1385-4b53-bf86-37409b0d30e9Post:ba5212cc-a2e8-4ae7-9794-e235512be0c0">Re: what determines "financially able to have kids"</a>:
[QUOTE]gulf, i agree with your thoughts. i wish we had an expensive habit we could cut out which would magically produce the money needed for daycare.  i know one couple (who is childless) that spends about $20K a year on vacations.  just cutting that out, would make daycare possible.  i know other couples that eat out every saturday night, get weekly pedis/manis and go to teh salon every six weeks for an expensive haircut.  to me, those would be obvious situations where "we cant afford kids" isnt entirely accurate.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

Yeah, those would definitely be obvious places to cut money.  As God has worked on my heart over the past year, though, I've seen that even small cuts to the budget can make a difference.  Adjusting our cell phone plans downward, cutting out cable and relying instead on Netflix or the internet when we want to watch TV or a movie, increasing our car insurance deductibles (though this only works if you have the money in savings to pay a higher deductible), cutting out my twice-weekly trips to a coffee shop -- it all has added up to a decent amount of savings per month.  We reduced our retirement savings slightly and took some money out of our savings account to pay off my car.  We then snowballed the money we were paying toward the car into my student loan, which is close to paid off.  With those two monthly obligations gone, we'll have around $500/month extra.  Also, I learned that I'd be able to shift to a more flexible work schedule once we have children, which would reduce the amount of days we'd need daycare (and a daycare in my neighborhood does have a 3-day-per-week price).  

It sounds like having children is important to you, based on what you've written here.  I don't know what your budget is like, and you don't have to share here.  Your budget may not look the same as mine, or might not have the same areas that could be cut.  I just write this post as encouragement that small things can add up, and if you feel God calling you to have a child, it will work out.  Keep praying and listening to what God is telling you.  Good luck!  <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />

Jay&Marissa

I think about this a lot too. We are just out of college and my husband starts medical school in one week. I have a pretty darn good paying job for being just out of college, so we should be able to pay off a decent amount of his tuition (med school is cheap in Texas, only 15k a year) and live a budget minded (old paid off cars, wal-mart shopping) but nice life. The plan right now is to try and conceive the summer before his last year, so I could take advantage of my employer's awesome health insurance and it would allow us some good daddy time, since the last semester of med school is pretty open. Then I could maybe stay at home during his residency, though it would be a big salary cut.

If we had a baby before then, it would still be okay, but I REALLY want to be  stay-at-home mom. It would kill me. And to do that, we would have to live on negative income. Soooo...I don't know!

Calypso1977

Adjusting our cell phone plans downward, cutting out cable and relying instead on Netflix or the internet when we want to watch TV or a movie, increasing our car insurance deductibles (though this only works if you have the money in savings to pay a higher deductible), cutting out my twice-weekly trips to a coffee shop -- it all has added up to a decent amount of savings per month. 

yeah, been there done this, wtih the exception of cable (my husband refuses to get rid of it, but even if we did, that's only $100).  we changed some stuff around with retirement savings so that i'm only putting in $50 at the moment into my own personal account which has freed up some money (about $350), but its short term.

bibliophile2010

I've been following this thread and trying compose an appropriately thoughtful response, because this is something that I've been contemplating as well.

Until recently, I would have agreed with all of those who say that you need the savings, the house, the income before having kids.  In fact, I had doubts about my relationship with fi for this very reason, but I let God work on my heart instead of just going with what the world is telling us.   

Fi just started a professional graduate program at a private school (no cheap TX tuition for us) and we're going to be swimming in student loan debt. Even so, we both are in our late 20s and want to have several children and so probably don't want to wait for too long before TTC. We both know that there will be challenges and financial cuts, but I think we'll probably have our first child before he's done with school. It saddens me that I'll not be able to stay at home for the first year or two, but I know that there will be light at the end of the tunnel and that we'll get through it as a family.

Calypso, I think you need to give this one up to prayer, and have a few serious conversation with your H. I obviously don't know you, but I see you as someone who truly wants to do God's will and I think that, if you find that having a child is God's will, something will work itself out. GL.

clearheavens

This is a really tough question and I'm even trying to discern this myself.

My only advice for you is to pray and invite God to help lead you to the right decision.  I know that ultimately, you want to follow God's plan for your life.  God wants to be at the center of your union with your DH and God has the power to create new life in your womb.  I don't think you can go too wrong when you ask for help how to line up your heart's desire with God's desire.

Actually, I should go pray that right now, too!