Law School Anyone?

buttaflai

H is pretty sure he will be starting the process to apply for law school in the next year or so. He will pursue a JD/MBA and depending on where he goes, it will either be a full MBA first, then JD or a joint program.How important do you think it is to get into a more prestigious law school? I'm sure it matters, but to what extent?We have available: UofM, Cooley, MSUAny ideas on those? Thanks.

Brie2010

I work in law school admissions and just graduated myself.Honestly, don't make the mistake I did--I applied to a shitton of law schools and went to the only one I got into in the top 20.  I got a great education, but it wasn't a great experience--I function better as a big fish in a small pond, and I was a teeny tiny fish in a huge ocean at my school.  I didn't get a lot of attention because I was intimidated by my classmates and in law school the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  I wish I'd gone to a smaller law school with a more individualized focus and focused less on rankings.Also, keep in mind that it's WAY more competitive getting into law school now because of the recession.  The amount of LSAT takers was up 20% from September 2008 to September 2009.  If you/he have any specific questions about the LSAT or admissions feel free to page me.

laurenclaire1386

Is MSU Mississippi State?  I have a friend who went there.  He passed the bar in Louisiana, which I've heard is a real biatch, and is now making beau coup money.  HTH.

gkb0910

I always forget that you're in Michigan.  I have a close family friend who is currently in law school at U of M.  If you have specific questions, I could ask him.  He's mentioned that he really enjoys it there, and I know U of M is a great law school.

kate51485

Laurenclaire -- it's Michigan State University Buttaflai -- I feel like growing up at home I always seemed to hear good stuff about each of those, but I dunno about recently.  Does he have any leanings between them yet?

uppereastgirl

What does he want to do with his degree?  There is a HUGE disparity in schools here -- you're talking about one of the top 15 schools in the country (U of M) and one of the lowest ranked schools in the country (Cooley).  If he wants to practice at a large firm, he should absolutely go to the highest-ranked school he can.  I have experience in NYC, but there are tons of top 100 firms that recruit as heavily as they can from the top 5-10 schools, and therefore (at least in better economies) kids from the top half of their classes at those schools won't have too much trouble finding a job at a top NY firm paying $165,000 to start.  (It is a lot harder this year than when I was looking at jobs though -- firms are scaling way back).  Law students coming from Fordham, which is an excellent school (top 25 or so?) with a great alumni network in NY, have to be in the top 10-15% of their class to get a job at those same firms.  And as everyone at Fordham is aware of that, competition to be in the top 10% is fierce.In other types of law practice, prestige would matter less.  He should look closely at the relevant career statistics at the schools he is looking at to see what his outcome may be.

buttaflai

Thanks, girls! Yup, Michigan State.He is leaning towards Cooley or MSU because they are closer... probably Cooley because there is a campus right down in GR where we live. The thought is this: Out of those schools only UofM is ranked, but too far so it's out. If we're left to choose between two unranked schools, why not go to the one that is in our backyard? This way, we can still follow our timeline to have kids, etc. We're just doing our homework to figure out if it's better to go to the smaller Cooley or larger MSU. Which will get him a better chance for a job after?Brie - H is okay in both situations, large or small school. (I'm like you, I like the smaller schools).He has not taken the LSAT yet, but I will probably have all kinds of questions for you later since neither one of us knows anyone in law.

buttaflai

In other types of law practice, prestige would matter less. He should look closely at the relevant career statistics at the schools he is looking at to see what his outcome may be.Great info. I am pretty positive he is most interested in corporate law (JD/MBA). I will definitely tell him this so he can continue his research.

fangsiting

It really matters what he wants to do with those degrees.  If he doesn't want to practice law and thinks the law degree will be beneficial for business, then it probably doesn't matter what school he goes to.**  If he wants to practice at a big law firm, he better be in the top of his class at U of M.  Don't even bother applying to the other schools.  **Honestly, I'm not sure the cost of law school is worth the benefit he would gain in the business world.  Probably better to talk to someone in business to see how much it would be valued, but I can't imagine it would make him so desirable to a company to justify the $100K tuition. 

Brie2010

Speaking from general knowledge, I'd guess MSU is bigger and probably has a larger alumni network, which is really critical when you're talking job hunting (especially if you're planning on leaving the area at any point).  But, on the other hand, if Cooley is a smaller school, smaller school alumni tend to be really loyal and really interested in helping out their own.  So, it can go both ways.

Moneypenny424

I agree that the rank of the school definitely matters, not only if you want to go to a big firm, but if you want to get a clerkship or have some other prestigious position in the law later.  In my opinion (and this is one of a bitter lawyer), it often is not worth it to go to law school.  A JD/MBA can be very useful, but if you don't go to a "good" school, you may have a hard time getting the position you want, and then will have a ton of debt and not be able to pay it off for a long time.

buttaflai

If he ever says that I waste my time here, I will throw this in his face. You are all very helpful =)Definitely not big law firm law. He's focused on business startup/mergers/acquisitions, etc. He's just in the beginning phases of all this and will be attending each school's dog 'n ponies this month.

Trifury2007

If he wants to practice at a large firm, he should absolutely go to the highest-ranked school he can.  This is also true in the Boston legal market.   I went to Northeastern for the co-op but they don't have grades just written evaluations and it really messed up the interview and job search process even 13 years down the line.

Trifury2007

Amen Moneypenny Amen!  I am also a bitter lawyer. For what it is worth he will get his best experience with start ups and M&A at a big firm where he can get the most exposure to the most things.

buttaflai

Kay, what I am gathering is that the school matters depending on what he wants to do. So is what I hear true then? Is Cooley looked down upon by law graduates? Money, is the market like that for all types of law practice?

Brie2010

In my opinion (and this is one of a bitter lawyer), it often is not worth it to go to law school. A JD/MBA can be very useful, but if you don't go to a "good" school, you may have a hard time getting the position you want, and then will have a ton of debt and not be able to pay it off for a long time. This.  I even went to a "good" school, and because the market was so awful when I graduated and my grades were average (I had a 3.0) I couldn't get any firm job.  I love my job now, and I'm really happy with it, but I still have a pile of debt and I could be doing this job without a J.D.

harbor_girl

I just answered a similar question on NEY...so this is basically a similar version of my answer to that person... Prestige matters. However, it definitely depends on what kind of law he wants to end up doing, and where. I am a 2L in a top tier school, and am one of very few going to a "biglaw" firm this summer, because of the economy. Even if you go to a top tier school and are in the top 10-15% of your class, it is hard to get a big firm job right now. So, if he wants to do biglaw, there is probably too much risk in going to a Tier 3 or 4 school. 

If he wants to work for a smaller firm, smaller government agency, or really anything where the school could give you strong local connections - it may be worth it. If he has no interest in biglaw (which comes with a starting salary of 160k in major cities like New York, DC, SF, and therefore makes paying back debt a lot easier), then a lower ranked school may be worth it IF he got some nice scholarships. It really does depend on how much debt he would have at the other schools. 
 Just as an anecdote, I have friends in lower tier schools who took about 150k in loans to go to law school, and ended up with 40k/year jobs after graduation. Yes, they're employed, and yes, they like their jobs - but that is a LOT of debt to pay back on a (relatively) smaller salary (especially given they also have college loans). So, you have to consider how much debt he will have, and his employment chances after graduation. If he will have to take out the full amount of law school debt, and you also want to buy a home, save for future children/college tuition, do anything else in life that costs a lot of money, etc, etc...then going to a lower tier school could make sense if he gets a good scholarship. This is why he should check on the statistics of post-grad employment at each of the schools and how well they are regarded in your area before making a decision.

laurenclaire1386

Slight threadjack here, but every time I hear or read the phrase "mergers and acquisitions" I always think about American Psycho when Patrick Bateman says he's in murders and executions.

Brie2010

The market is pretty good for bankruptcy lawyers right now, but most other areas are struggling.

uppereastgirl

What do you mean by "corporate law"?  Many of the lawyers at large corporations are from top schools, went to large firms after graduation and worked in the corporate (transactional) areas, and then moved on to private practice at the companies.  Normally large companies do not hire lawyers right out of law school -- they hire them out of top law firms.  And normally top law schools hire middle of the road to top students from the top 14 schools, or top students from slightly more middle of the road schools.He should really research what he wants to do when he's out before he applies, and to figure out what path people take to get there.  Law school otherwise may be a waste.

buttaflai

You ladies ARE my leg of the research All of our friends are in our industries, sales & enginerding, so we don't have people to consult. Going into the schools, they'll just all blow smoke about why he should go there so I'm getting the info from all of YOU!

uppereastgirl

"Is Cooley looked down upon by law graduates?"I do not live in the midwest, so I don't know how it is looked at locally, but on blogs and message boards I currently read and read when I was applying to law school, it (more than any other 4th tier school) was the butt of a lot of jokes.  I think because they offer full rides to people sight unseen (I was offered a full ride and didn't apply) and because it puts out a bizarre ranking every year ranking itself as one of the best law schools in the country, above Penn and Berkeley and Stanford and such.

buttaflai

and because it puts out a bizarre ranking every year ranking itself as one of the best law schools in the country, above Penn and Berkeley and Stanford and such.I saw that! Definitely confused me...

harbor_girl

Agree with uppereast. What does he mean by "corporate" law? He says he wants to do corporate law/M&As, but not work at a big firm, right? Just keep in mind that most corporate/M&A law IS done by biglaw firms.

buttaflai

What does he mean by "corporate" law? He says he wants to do corporate law/M&As, but not work at a big firm, right? Just keep in mind that most corporate/M&A law IS done by biglaw firms.Missed that question. Ahhh gotcha. I could be translating what he wants to do incorrectly. I'll pass all this along.

Moneypenny424

I agree with others.  If he wants to do M&A work, he'll be at a big firm and then the school will matter.  And even to work with startups, he would need the training from a firm (doesn't have to be a big firm, but a firm that does that work).  Cooley is the butt of a lot of jokes of the legal world.  Appearances in the legal world are HUGE.  The market is going to be messed up for a little while.  A lot of us are "displaced" and it will take a while for us to get back to jobs we want.  I went to a Top 10 school, got laid off in February and still am not working...and there are a whole lot of us! I don't want to dissuade your FI from going to law school, I just want him to go into it with eyes wide open.  Graduating from law school and makding $40K is very typical for a lot of folks (and I don't mean people making $40K to work in public interest).  For me that wasn't an option.

buttaflai

Thank you for all of the candid opinions, I truly appreciate it.This is what I am getting:Corporate law, whether big or small, necessitates someone to do well in a higher ranked school; For our possible choices, that would be UofM. For other practices, it isn't necessary to go to a big school.  However, because it costs so much, it is only better to go to the smaller school if you get scholarships to pay for a lot of it. Otherwise, the ROI is not worth going to law school in the first place. So go to a tier 3 or 4 with plenty of funding, not just loans otherwise nix the law school idea.

foolforfood

Why is your husband interested in M&A?  Does he have any sort of experience or exposure to that world? I agree with all the previous comments.  Cooley is a joke.  If that's the only school he can get into, he should just forget about pursuing M&A, regardless of his joint degree.   Law school is different than any other grad school, including med school.  There's no such thing as a bad med school.  Even the foreign schools have a large % of grads enter prestigous residencies.  However, there are a few law schools that deliver poor results in graduate placement, bar passage, etc. He just take a practice LSAT and see how well he does.  If he can get into UMich, then I think it's worth it to commute or even move closer to the campus.

harbor_girl

Buttaflai - I think that is an accurate assessment. However, I will just add that I do know people who took out a lot of loans to go to a Tier 3, and even though they are sitting under a pile of debt and have small salaries, they are happy because they are practicing attorneys and that's all they ever wanted to do with their lives. Again, it is a very individualistic choice. If your H can't imagine doing ANYTHING in life but being an attorney, all that debt may be worth it to him. But, you then have to consider that decision as a couple, and the financial impact it could have on any plans you've made thus far (how much debt, if any, do both of you already have from undergrad? Do you want to buy a home? Do you want children? Do you want to travel the world?) At any rate, if he's interested, he should definitely study his butt off for the LSAT, do a lot of research, apply to schools, and see what his options are at the end of the process. No harm in that!

harbor_girl

Oh! One more thing. Law schools often fudge their post-graduation employment statistics. They can count anyone who is "employed" 12 months after graduation, even if they are not employed as lawyers or in any sort of legal position. So if a Tier 3/4 school tells you that 95% of its graduates are employed after graduation...be very wary of that statistic.

uppereastgirl

"If he can get into UMich, then I think it's worth it to commute or even move closer to the campus."I agree with this, and would take it one step farther -- he may want to look at other schools outside of your immediate geographic area.  Law school is only three years, and (as you've figured out by now) where you go is very important.  It would be a shame if he ended up at a school that is not in the top 100 (would could completely change his career path) because he *justmissed* getting into Michigan (which is ranked 9th in the country).  If he wants to do the M&A thing, ending up at, say, Georgetown (ranked 14th) would do him a lot more good than ending up at MSU or Cooley.  And it would be a shame (assuming that he really wants to be a lawyer) if he just said "eh, I'm not going to go to law school" because he didn't get into Michigan, but the only other two schools he looked at were local schools that didn't seem worth his while.