Wedding Etiquette Forum

I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR

My stepfather sent me a link to a discussion that was held on NPR that just finished, about the Vietnam War Orphan Lift, of which my husband was part.  The view they took was, we shouldn't have taken the children out of the country because it was hysterical.  That a child will be happier and better adjusted in the nation of their birth because they grow up with their own families and their own culture. 

I know that some people are defined by their adoption, but my husband is the opposite.  He is defined by the people who raised him, and not the fact that they aren't genetically linked.  It irritates me that they put such a negative spin on the adtoption of these children, and makes it sound as though the US practically stole them out of the arms of unwilling mothers. 

So, what's your stance?  Do you think that children in a war torn country should have absolute proof that there is not a single relative that will/can take them in, or, in the absence of parents, should they be allowed to be given up for adoption?  Should children be allowed to grow up in poverty and want because that's where they were born?
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Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR

  • Peter Pan Flights?  Please explain?

    I do wonder though, if it's a bit different for H because he was adopted into an Asian family.  His father is Chinese and his mother is Burmese, who both have horrific stories of their own.  They were raised spiritually, and knew that they were adopted, and their parents were proud of adopting them, and showed them the newspaper clippings.  In fact, H was 5 when he became an American citizen, so it does leave a mark.  But for him, he knows that he is never going to find his birth family.  He'll never know anything about them or his history.  And he's okay with that for the most part.

    T, I can see how you say "fascinating culture" for Vietnam, but, does a fascinating culture (which WE see it as, not as they would see it) mean life in abject poverty?  Discrimination for being Asian/Caucasian? 
  • I don't mean this in a rude way, but is there a way they could do a "claim"? Meaning, if a child isn't claimed by a relative (and the burden of proof is on the relative to prove that they are related) then the child can be given up for adoption after X amount of days? Or, that these children could leave their country and go to US foster families? Is that ever an option? I think that might be a happy medium of sorts.

    I don't think it is fair for children to be raised in poverty for heritage reasons ONLY, especially when there are families that are willing to provide these children with better opportunities.
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  • But how were they supposed to meet the burden of proof in the Vietnam case?  What makes me so annoyed right now is, this writer is making a case that the US did nothing to track the parents of the child.  Um, hi.  It was Vietnam, during war.  How many records do you think survived??
  • In those kinds of crisis situations there isn't time to wait a few days and see who shows up.  You either get kids our of there or you leave them to hope that they'll make it.  Even in the case of Haiti, circumstances were dangerous and keeping the children in Haiti left them to chance against crime, aftershock from the earthquake, looting, hunger, etc. 
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  • Well they do make the same cultural claim in the US about adopting out AA children to Caucasian couples and Jewish children to Non Jewish couples (don't know if that's everywhere in the US).
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  • There are children in ORPHANAGES who are adopted who have living parents. One of my professors is adopting a girl from Africa who's mother is alive. So no, I don't think they should have to prove all their parents are dead. There are a ton of kids in foster care in the US who have living parents who are not willing or able to care for them.

    I think right now there's a big backlash against adoption for some reason. I've heard that some adoptees are very angry at being "stolen" from their homeland and raised in a foreign culture. I can understand that to a certain extend, especially if you are non-white and grow up with white parents, but in my experience, many adoptive parents try to teach the child about their native culture.

    I'm considering adopting someday, and I just never realized some people could be so against something that seems to work out well.

    Oh, and this doesn't relate to your husband, but one of my friends was born in Vietnam and is half white. He said mixed race children in Vietnam inevitably ended up begging on the streets. No one wanted to deal with them. (My friend's dad was in the army, but married his mother and moved her and her kids from her previous marriage to the US.)
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  • Amoro and Hillary-- Good points. I guess it would be better to take them to safety. I would assume safety would come before birth right.
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  • erm, I thought that mr. momo's situation was kind of an iminent danger, leave now sort of thing.  Am I wrong?  If the choice is death or adoption, I chose adoption every time.  I would hope the parents or family members would say the same thing.

    but, I don't know tons about the vietnam lift or any other crisis adoption situation, so I'm not sure I fully understand the complicated ramifications. 
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  • I will say that I understand the whole "great white savior" thing and that just because a child grows up in a developed country doesn't mean his or her life will be better... but it probably doesn't hurt.
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  • Here's what I found about the PP flights, much more succinctly than I could have written.  "Operation coordinated by the United States government, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Miami, and certain Cubans. Between 1960 and 1962, over 14,000 children were sent from Cuba to Miami by their parents. The operation was designed to transport the children of parents who opposed the revolutionary government, and was later expanded to include children of parents concerned by rumors that their children would be shipped to Soviet work camps.The children were placed with friends, relatives and group homes in 35 states."

    And your point is very correct, that the risk of "losing" their culture is far outweighed by being able to grow up out of poverty, etc.  I'm just saying that that's the ONLY point that MAY make me think twice - but that second thought would definitely be told to STFU by the other concerns. 

    I also think its very cool that your H was adopted by another Asian family, I'm pretty sure that his parents were able to at least provide a better understanding of the general culture than a Caucasian family would.  Or at least back then.  Nowadays, finding resources to keep the child's culture alive at home is a no-brainer with the internet and the like. 
  • And I only bring up the "cultural" considerations because my inner nerd is showing and I love all things anthropology - not because for a second I think that a child should live in sub-par conditions at best in order to maintain their cultural identity. 
  • To be honest, i personally don't know anyone who is angry that they were adopted, including people who were adopted from other countries.  Everyone I know (which is actually a lot) is grateful they aren't starving or dead. 


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  • I don't know many people, but the one person I do know has been in therapy his entire life (he's about 60) because his siblings were not as fortunate as he was.  While he is grateful, he feels guilty.
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  • See, I think with the Cuban thing.. I'm more iffy on something like that.  There was no imminent danger for those children.  Do they grow up with "less" than we have in the US?  Yeah, but is it horrible?  No.  In my H's situation, he would have had... I can't imagine the kind of life he would have had.  He doesn't LOOK mixed, but we don't know if that means he isn't mixed.  But, he does look Chinese (strangely enough, he looks like his adopted father who is, in fact, full Chinese) and he would havebeen discriminated against because of that too. 

    You know, his family didn't really teach him about being Asian. They taught him to be American.  They taught him to be thankful for what he had, for what they were able to provide, and instilled in them, the very immigrant notion, of hard work pays off.  H doesn't consider himself Asian.  He's American, end of story.  Well, if he's in a joking mood, he calls himself a banana, but ya know...

    I think, in the US, we're very quick to denigrate our own culture and believe that the ones that are part of it, and that others throughout the world are better than our own.  There is no easy answer to what American culture is, so we end up spending a lot of time focusing on ethnicity and how THAT correlates to culture.  Culture and ethnicity aren't and don't have to be, the same thing.
  • I don't think what was done was wrong in general, although I'm sure somewhere, someone ripped a baby they thought was cute out of mom's arms and shoved her away.  Bad people exist and they do bad things.  That one bad apple will be heard loudly, drowning out a thousand happy adoptions, though. 

    Personally, though, I don't have a solid opinion either way on international adoptions.  I really hate that we have such a difficult foster care system, that in many cases is corrupt and unhealthy, but we have parents clammoring to adopt from foreign countries because they either don't want to wait in line for a domestic adoption or whatever other reasons motivate them.

    Part of me says "go do good things for the world" but part of me says "how about making sure we're taken care of at home first?"

    I can't really make sense of all of it in my head very clearly, so I'm SURE it's not clear in my post.  Sorry.
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  • I think international adoptions are fine, especially for couples who are over the age of 40.  In the U.S. if you are over 40 you aren't considered for adoptions and that's unfortunate. 

    I get the "wait in line" bit, but I also think that's easier to say than do.  Especially if you have been trying to conceive for many years with no success.  Although i think it's great pregnant women can do this now, the fact that they can choose couples themselves makes it difficult for some perfectly good families to adopt. 
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  • I've never personally met anyone who is angry about their adoption, though I have met people who feel they have trouble fitting into a specific culture because they grew up with parents of another race. (In both cases, their parents were white. One girl I kow is Latino and the other is Indian.) I just read a few articles a few years back about adoptees who were against adoption.

    I guess in the last few decades the instances of adoption have skyrocketed, so you're bound to find some people who feel that way.

    Also, one of my best friends says she would never put her child up for adoption because she doesn't think adoptive parents would "understand them" as much as a birth parent. WTF.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_im-little-bit-annoyed-npr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:67bd0d7a-190b-4121-97de-8efdaaf607caPost:bff1fbb2-d5f1-409d-9958-b1593553c9df">Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR</a>:
    [QUOTE]See, I think with the Cuban thing.. I'm more iffy on something like that.  There was no imminent danger for those children.  Do they grow up with "less" than we have in the US?  Yeah, but is it horrible?  No.  <strong>Well see... that's where I disagree.  While the conditions were/are not a "war zone," they are certainly not human conditions.  To me, worrying about having food, and the possibility of being jailed or assassinated whilly-nilly is just as bad as a "war zone" type situation.  </strong>

    I think, in the US, we're very quick to denigrate our own culture and believe that the ones that are part of it, and that others throughout the world are better than our own.  There is no easy answer to what American culture is, so we end up spending a lot of time focusing on ethnicity and how THAT correlates to culture.  Culture and ethnicity aren't and don't have to be, the same thing.  <strong>Here is where I agree with you.  In fact, I think that the "American" culture is precisely a mix of everything that has immigrated in.  Which is why I get so pissed when I hear the whole "others" argument - because Americans ARE the "others" being referred to, even if its British.  Because British =/= American, ya know?</strong>
    Posted by AmoroAgain[/QUOTE]
  • See, I can be honest that I'd be more likely to adopt internationally because the likelihood of the adoption being reversed or the mother or other parent forcing their way into our lives is minimized.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_im-little-bit-annoyed-npr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:67bd0d7a-190b-4121-97de-8efdaaf607caPost:4284611a-9494-4b72-a470-4ea508b04e29">Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR</a>:
    [QUOTE]See, I can be honest that I'd be more likely to adopt internationally because the likelihood of the adoption being reversed or the mother or other parent forcing their way into our lives is minimized.
    Posted by AmoroAgain[/QUOTE]

    That's actually a point my professor made about adopting internationally. However, she's also over 40.
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  • "See, I think with the Cuban thing.. I'm more iffy on something like that.  There was no imminent danger for those children.  Do they grow up with "less" than we have in the US?  Yeah, but is it horrible?  No.  Well see... that's where I disagree.  While the conditions were/are not a "war zone," they are certainly not human conditions.  To me, worrying about having food, and the possibility of being jailed or assassinated whilly-nilly is just as bad as a "war zone" type situation. "

    In this situation, the children were given up by their parents, NOT taken.  I think that makes a huge difference.  And a lot of them were not adopted, but taken care of by the Priests that brought them here.  My mom's cousin was one of these children.  His parents never were able to come from Cuba, but he was able to connect with my mom, and his aunts and uncles and other cousins as they came.

    PS - I can't unbold my response.  Damn knot.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_im-little-bit-annoyed-npr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:67bd0d7a-190b-4121-97de-8efdaaf607caPost:658ec0bb-258f-4798-88a2-ed2e348587e9">Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR</a>:
    [QUOTE]Also, one of my best friends says she would never put her child up for adoption because she doesn't think adoptive parents would "understand them" as much as a birth parent. WTF.
    Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

    WTF, indeed. 

    Of course you'll find people who oppose it who are adopted, but I am confident to say that is the minority.  Although I am the same race as my parents, my brother is fairly mixed and it doesn't bother him at all.  I have a friend who is Chilean with white parents and she is fine too.  I think a lot of it is how the adoptive parent incorporates their child's "background".  My parents did a good job, but then again they are pretty kick ass. 
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  • Alexia - the point wasn't that they were "taken" vs. "sent" or whatever, the point was getting children out of a terrible situation in order for them to grow up having a good life, as opposed to what they would experience in their native countries.  I think we can all pretty much agree that giving kids a chance like that is a good thing.  :o)

    Also, if some of the kids in foreign orphanages weren't "given up" by their mom/parents or dropped off there with the very intention that they have a better life - well then I'm a monkey's uncle.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_im-little-bit-annoyed-npr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:67bd0d7a-190b-4121-97de-8efdaaf607caPost:f0e9f04f-c445-4825-b1fb-7bf2c943cee2">Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR</a>:
    [QUOTE]"See, I think with the Cuban thing.. I'm more iffy on something like that.  There was no imminent danger for those children.  Do they grow up with "less" than we have in the US?  Yeah, but is it horrible?  No.  Well see... that's where I disagree.  While the conditions were/are not a "war zone," they are certainly not human conditions.  To me, worrying about having food, and the possibility of being jailed or assassinated whilly-nilly is just as bad as a "war zone" type situation. " In this situation, the children were given up by their parents, NOT taken.  I think that makes a huge difference.  And a lot of them were not adopted, but taken care of by the Priests that brought them here.  My mom's cousin was one of these children.  His parents never were able to come from Cuba, but he was able to connect with my mom, and his aunts and uncles and other cousins as they came. PS - I can't unbold my response.  Damn knot.
    Posted by AlexiaANDRobert[/QUOTE]

    I'll have to give way to your superior knowledge on that one.  My understanding of Cuba is limited at best.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_im-little-bit-annoyed-npr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:67bd0d7a-190b-4121-97de-8efdaaf607caPost:dfdef042-af9d-4550-b432-440a2bcd472a">Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR : I'll have to give way to your superior knowledge on that one.  My understanding of Cuba is limited at best.
    Posted by AmoroAgain[/QUOTE]

    Not superior but first hand.

    I grew up hearing the stories.  My mom's aunt was arrested MANY times for defiance to the gov't.  My cousins can't wait to get the eff out.   A friend of my mom's cousin came over to tell us (me and siblings), his story of coming over here on a raft, when I was 10.

    There is A LOT I don't know.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_im-little-bit-annoyed-npr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:67bd0d7a-190b-4121-97de-8efdaaf607caPost:19024bd2-3030-4c93-b248-2c1951818a31">Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR</a>:
    [QUOTE]Alexia - the point wasn't that they were "taken" vs. "sent" or whatever, the point was getting children out of a terrible situation in order for them to grow up having a good life, as opposed to what they would experience in their native countries.  I think we can all pretty much agree that giving kids a chance like that is a good thing.  :o) Also, if some of the kids in foreign orphanages weren't "given up" by their mom/parents or dropped off there with the very intention that they have a better life - well then I'm a monkey's uncle.
    Posted by T1+T2[/QUOTE]

    I might have misunderstood Amoro's OP, but I thought the debate was whether or not children should be <span style="font-weight:bold;">taken</span> from war torn countries.  So, Cuba, while it may not be war torn (it sure as hell isn't Eden anymore), if they were given up voluntarily, I think it makes a difference.  The example she gave was that they were taken so people had the issue with that.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_im-little-bit-annoyed-npr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:67bd0d7a-190b-4121-97de-8efdaaf607caPost:4adea7b0-4069-4e9a-a563-679ad59547dd">Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR : I might have misunderstood Amoro's OP, but I thought the debate was whether or not children should be taken from war torn countries.  So, Cuba, while it may not be war torn (it sure as hell isn't Eden anymore), if they were given up voluntarily, I think it makes a difference.  The example she gave was that they were taken so people had the issue with that.
    Posted by AlexiaANDRobert[/QUOTE]

    Well, it's kind of semantics.  They were taken out of the country, as orphans.  They'd already been voluntarily given up to the orphanage by parents who couldn't or wouldn't care for them. 
  • Actually, Amoro's original question was "Do you think that children in a war torn country should have absolute proof that there is not a single relative that will/can take them in, or, in the absence of parents, should they be allowed to be given up for adoption?  Should children be allowed to grow up in poverty and want because that's where they were born?"

    That's why I brought up the PP flights - because even though the parents were around in that situation, the kids were given up, as opposed to taken.  But I can see where the discussion has veered off course. 

    To me, the whole point was whether children should grow up in the poverty of their native country, or be given up for foreign adoption.  And I think that a child's potential for being happy and healthy 1000% trumps staying in their native country.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_im-little-bit-annoyed-npr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:67bd0d7a-190b-4121-97de-8efdaaf607caPost:c51be99d-f397-431f-ae31-1883e8fae0f8">Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR : Well, it's kind of semantics.  They were taken out of the country, as orphans.  They'd already been voluntarily given up to the orphanage by parents who couldn't or wouldn't care for them. 
    Posted by AmoroAgain[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, my bad, I guess I was visualizing someone grabbing a child and bring them into the US, skipping the orphanage step.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_im-little-bit-annoyed-npr?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:67bd0d7a-190b-4121-97de-8efdaaf607caPost:a6641d66-ac9e-4d8f-a469-1ff6aef15c52">Re: I'm a little bit annoyed with NPR</a>:
    [QUOTE]Actually, Amoro's original question was "Do you think that children in a war torn country should have absolute proof that there is not a single relative that will/can take them in, or, in the absence of parents, should they be allowed to be given up for adoption?  Should children be allowed to grow up in poverty and want because that's where they were born?" That's why I brought up the PP flights - because even though the parents were around in that situation, the kids were given up, as opposed to taken.  But I can see where the discussion has veered off course.  <strong>To me, the whole point was whether children should grow up in the poverty of their native country, or be given up for foreign adoption.  And I think that a child's potential for being happy and healthy 1000% trumps staying in their native country.</strong>
    Posted by T1+T2[/QUOTE]

    Agreed.
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