Wedding Etiquette Forum

Fiance and I were having a debate about "do-overs."

I was telling him about how it is considered rude to get married at the courthouse, and then a few months or a year later to have what you call a "real" wedding, with the dress and first dance and another ceremony. I told him that it was rude because the couples' family and friends should be there for when they actually get married, not when they put on a play that doesn't mean anything.

He says that there is nothing wrong with it, because if you consider the PPD to be the "real" wedding, then your family and friends aren't missing out on anything.

I told him that people should just be adults and make the decision that works. If they need to get married right away and decide on the courthouse, then that's their wedding, boom, done. And if having their friends and family there and all of the traditional stuff is important, then they should wait until they can swing it.

He says there's no reason they can't have both, and that I'm creating unnecessary consequences.

What do you think?

Note, this isn't on the table for us, I'm just trying to figure out if there's a way to convince him that I'm right. ;)
image
«1

Re: Fiance and I were having a debate about "do-overs."

  • I guess I don't get why you need to know what we think.  It sounds like you already know what we think.  I recognize you enough to know that you should know what the general response is here.

    But in any case, I don't really care one way or another as long as no one is lying.  I think it's a little weird to play it like you haven't had a ceremony, and I definitely prefer for it to be done like a celebratory party instead of a full "vow renewal" (unless a renewal is actually warranted), but I wouldn't boycott someone's ceremony or anything like that.

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • The rudeness comes from the lying, IMO.

    And I just don't see the point.  Why have two separate events?  Figure out what's important to you and just do one.  
  • You wouldn't redo other big life events, so why redo a wedding? Would he redo graduation? Proposing? The birth of his first child? No. So why redo a wedding?
  • I wouldn't say it's an overwhelming need. It's not exactly taxing to put up a post on the forum. I was just curious what other reasons I could use to try to get him to understand.

    Thanks, wrigley, for the point about not re-doing other big life events, that's a good one.
    image
  • This is an odd argument to have.

    My perspective:
    1) If the couple gets married and doesn't tell me about it then has a 'real' wedding that's a huge lie.   I don't appreciate being deceived so in that case, it's rude because they're ignoring what they've previously done.   Then they're passing off something that doesn't actually hold (either legally or spiritually) as their real event in front of friends and family.

    2) If the couple gets married and then tells everyone that they want a big event after, I just don't get it.   I've attended weddings that were lovely and they were planned in under 8 weeks so I'm not understanding the whole 'no time' thing.
  • Well, I disagree with your point, because I don't think PPDs are "rude" unless one is lying, demanding/expecting gifts, or having pre-wedding parties. 

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • And I guess to support my point:  If you're being a good host and feeding and entertaining your guests properly, I can't find it rude.  If you were my good friend or a family member, I'd get you a wedding gift regardless of whether or not you had a big party, so to me it's not a gift grab or presumptuous.  Unless, of course, the couple does something to make it appear that way.  I fail to see what's rude about properly hosting guests for a fun party regardless of the reason for it.

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • I defended my thesis in July 2010.  My degree was conferred by the University in December 2010.  I didn't walk in graduation until May 2011.  I sure as hell had my degree before I put on the cap and gown.  Whether I considered myself "graduated" or not, I was.

    Being married is a legal situation.  These people who don't consider themselves married until their PPD I am willing to bet are availing themselves of the legal rights of married couples (health insurance, tax breaks).  If you're doing that, you're married.  I don't care what you consider yourself because it's a moot point.
  • I don't know, H and I like to debate just for the sake of interesting discussion sometimes.  I get that. 

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • kmmssgkmmssg mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 5000 Comments 500 Love Its
    edited September 2012
    I usually stay far away from this one but here goes:  as long as no one is lying about anything, knock yourself out.  I know the girls on the military brides board don't have much patience for it, but I saw this countless times over my 26 years in uniform.   Between 2006 and 2011 I attended 4 weddings where there was a courthouse wedding just prior to deployment and then a ceremony/reception when my buddy(s) returned.  There was NO problem with attendance at these shindigs, they were all well attended and no one was being catty in the bathroom or at the dinner table.  IMO - I was exceedingly happy to have a chance to celebrate with my friends post deployment and I was happy to attend.  If I have ever attended a wedding where the couple was already married, they have done a stellar job at keeping their secret.

    They weren't getting married for the benefits as much as they were moving up an already scheduled wedding so that if he was injured, the gov't would pay to get his wife to wherever he was being treated (Germany quite often).  Uncle Sam will pay to send 2 next of kin to where you are being treated.  Girlfriends didn't mean squat when it came to next of kin.  Some things in that have changed, but if I was in their shoes, that is exactly the reason I would have hit the courthouse too.  They also wanted to be the person who could make decisions regarding funeral/burial.  Up until recently that had to be a relative.  I think that has also changed.

    As long as people are honest and up front, I think life is way way too short to make this such a huge issue.  I do not take part in this discussion when it comes up on the boards as it just becomes rather heated.  So...that's all I'll say about that.

    ETA - I have seen what I thought were some pretty stupid ideas for a PPD, but hey, I'm biased on the military thing and like I said, I've seen it countless times.
  • That's really all we were doing, was just having a discussion for discussion's sake. He presented a couple of points that I didn't really have a counter for, so I thought I'd see if anybody here had an opinion on those points.

    I'm not sure why it seems to be bothering people that I asked. It's just something that I'm curious about.
    image
  • It could be bothering people because this discussion is had almost daily when people ask about it.  I don't think it's "bothering" people so much as we don't get why you'd ask when it's such a common topic of discussion.  Or at least, that's my thought process.

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • I'm sorry if that's how it came across. And I know that there are a lot of posts about it, but those posts usually don't go past "Don't do a do-over because it's rude." and if people are feeling extra explanatory, they say that it's because it's rude to the family and friends who want to be there when the couple actually gets married. So, what about the couples who don't view the courthouse wedding the valid one, so their loved ones are at the important one, or what about when people don't really care one way or the other?

    So, I guess I'm asking if it's only rude if you are offended, then maybe it's not just universally rude? I'm trying to figure out what it is that I think. Especially the whole "rude is rude is rude." thing that gets said a lot around here. Either there are other reasons why it's rude, which is what I'm looking for, or there is a difference in opinion and rude isn't just rude.
    image
  • J&K10910J&K10910 member
    10000 Comments Fourth Anniversary 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited September 2012
    Ok, I don't know that you're reading the responses here.

    RUDE:  lying about it (aka pretending you're not actually married), not properly hosting your guests, treating it like a gift grab

    Not RUDE, but weird/AWish/hard to comprehend: not lying, but re-enacting the whole shebang

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • loca4pookloca4pook member
    1000 Comments 25 Love Its Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited September 2012
    I  guess I never understand the hostilite of people on this board about this subject and would be totally fine in attending a "wedding" of someone who did it different on their own.

    My best friend actually did it and it NEVER dawned on me that it was rude or weird or anything......I come here and am shocked that people find it to be rude..I wonder if the general view of America would be different from those on the view. If they are hosting an event with food, dancing, etc....who cares if they "Technically" did it prior to that second unless there is a huge lie involved...you aren't giving them any type of gift you wouldn't have given them if they did it a different way so I am not sure why people think they are being screwed...you are still getting the "perks" of a wedding..

    In my friends situation, her fiance and she had a wedding date picked..He was in military and realized he might be deployed so they hurried up and had a quick ceremony with only her family present....due to circumscances, he wasn't deployed so they continued with the original "dream wedding" plan a few months later...not once, did I think it was weird or rude. I was happy to be part of it and she had a normal wedding....I didn't hear a single person think she was rude for doing it..Just happy to be able to witness it themselves
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_fiance-and-i-were-having-a-debate-about-do-overs?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:7672c0c9-ec98-4f84-985a-bad313673e46Post:aecae139-3dfa-4391-807e-5599d7862cdb">Re: Fiance and I were having a debate about "do-overs."</a>:
    [QUOTE]And I guess to support my point:  If you're being a good host and feeding and entertaining your guests properly, I can't find it rude.  If you were my good friend or a family member, I'd get you a wedding gift regardless of whether or not you had a big party, so to me it's not a gift grab or presumptuous.  Unless, of course, the couple does something to make it appear that way.  I fail to see what's rude about properly hosting guests for a fun party regardless of the reason for it.
    Posted by J&K10910[/QUOTE]

    I agree with this completely..I seriously don't understand the frustration over this topic on this board...
  • I had a passing conversation with a family member that escalated into a debate about PPDs.  I stopped the conversation because there was no explaining to this family member that pretending to be getting married is rude (thereby fulfilling the "lying to people" clause of when do-overs are harmless fun at the couple's AW expense).

    Where I ran into difficulty, OP, was in explaining that when it is a do-over and all of your guests know you are already married (and weren't invited to the courthouse/original ceremony).  I explained that (military deployments being the only exception that our circles accept as a reason for a do-over/PPD) the fun of the celebration/reception is having people come together for an uncommon purpose.  People pay a lot of money to travel, do their hair, get new outfits, hire babysitters, etc. to come together to celebrate an infrequent occassion. They will even pay money to give a gift, the occasion is so special.

    People are less likely to put forth so much effort for Old News. Especially if they were excluded when the News was, well, New.

    This is why do-overs are not good to have, it can turn into a meh occasion that is very expensive and only reminds people of their exclusion from the original union.  People don't go to weddings for the chicken, they go to the effort to celebrate the couple.  Excluding guests until the couple can afford the fancypants meal misses the point.

  • To be fair, I still think it's AWish and a little weird, even they do host their guests properly, but I'm just stuck on the word "rude" and failing to see how it applies here.

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • But I have seen it said that re-enacting the whole thing, even if people know you're already married is rude.

    Or at least I thought I had seen it. If that's not the general consensus, then my apologies for misunderstanding something.

    Sorry for wasting everybody's time?
    image
  • Well, some people certainly might think it's rude, but I don't understand it, and the above are my reasons why I don't understand it. 

    No reason to apologize though.  If you were truly wasting our time, we wouldn't have responded. 

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • I do think it's rude to do a do-over (even honestly) if you want things like a bridal shower and bachelorette party.  I have no problem coming to see a vow renewal, but please don't also take up several other weekends for gift grabs and WP-funded drinking fests if you are already married.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_fiance-and-i-were-having-a-debate-about-do-overs?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:7672c0c9-ec98-4f84-985a-bad313673e46Post:3d27a903-f7b4-4724-bb5b-524a9f5783fc">Re: Fiance and I were having a debate about "do-overs."</a>:
    [QUOTE]I'm sorry if that's how it came across. And I know that there are a lot of posts about it, but those posts usually don't go past "Don't do a do-over because it's rude." and if people are feeling extra explanatory, they say that it's because it's rude to the family and friends who want to be there when the couple actually gets married. <strong>So, what about the couples who don't view the courthouse wedding the valid one</strong>, so their loved ones are at the important one, or what about when people don't really care one way or the other? So, I guess I'm asking if it's only rude if you are offended, then maybe it's not just universally rude? I'm trying to figure out what it is that I think. Especially the whole "rude is rude is rude." thing that gets said a lot around here. Either there are other reasons why it's rude, which is what I'm looking for, or there is a difference in opinion and rude isn't just rude.
    Posted by TheBaney[/QUOTE]

    <div>Those couples are lying to themselves or are delusional.  The courthouse wedding IS the valid one.  You don't just get married by wanting to, you have to do certain legal things for it to be a valid, actual wedding.</div><div>
    </div><div>If they really didn't consider the courthouse wedding to be valid, why would they do it?  They know that is the real wedding.  They want to pretend that it isn't.</div>
  • See, that's what I think. If you have the quick ceremony, just to be married, you're doing it because it offers you the benefits of being married. Hence, you're married, and just putting on a play.

    Wouldn't that be where the rudeness comes in? In doing the courthouse wedding just to gain the benefits, without taking the time or effort or whatever to plan the big day with your important people? It's like, saying that the insurance benefits are more important than your loved ones being present at this life changing moment, but then you're willing to stage a production in order to satisfy your impression of the kind of wedding you deserve.

    Like I said, I'm just trying to figure out what it is that I think, and why.
    image
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_fiance-and-i-were-having-a-debate-about-do-overs?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:7672c0c9-ec98-4f84-985a-bad313673e46Post:10523d46-78e0-4077-85c9-790eb6e022df">Re: Fiance and I were having a debate about "do-overs."</a>:
    [QUOTE]See, that's what I think. If you have the quick ceremony, just to be married, you're doing it because it offers you the benefits of being married. Hence, you're married, and just putting on a play. Wouldn't that be where the rudeness comes in? In doing the courthouse wedding just to gain the benefits, without taking the time or effort or whatever to plan the big day with your important people? <strong>It's like, saying that the insurance benefits are more important than your loved ones being present at this life changing moment, but then you're willing to stage a production in order to satisfy your impression of the kind of wedding you deserve.</strong> Like I said, I'm just trying to figure out what it is that I think, and why.
    Posted by TheBaney[/QUOTE]

    Well, that comes down to the attitude. Yes, if they have a nasty, entitled attitude of "This is our REAL wedding, and you should bring us gifts and tell us how awesome we are!" it comes off as rude.

    In the few instances i've experenced this IRL, the couple has seriously just wanted to celebrate with the people they love.  There was lots of good food, open bar, and good entertainment, no pre-"wedding" hoopla, etc.  In that case, I found nothing rude about it because they were good hosts and it was a good party.  I guess maybe I'm in the minority, but I have a really, really hard time finding people hosting a kickass party to be rude, regardless of the circumstances of the party.

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • That situation, Stage, is the only time my discusion with FI got a little heated. I pointed that out to him, I said that it's rude to insist a courthouse wedding isn't a "real" wedding, because that's saying that people who *chose* a courthouse wedding didn't do it right. He told me that I was saying that the people who do a do over are de-valuing other peoples weddings, which is the same argument that people against gay marriage use, and is wrong. He said that whatever someone else does for/in their marriage doesn't affect your marriage at all.
    image
  • I happen to agree with your fiance. Actually, in the country where we live, the only valid wedding is with a Catholic priest in a Catholic church, or with a lawyer. A lot of people here are Evangelical or some other kind of Christian, so their church ceremony is religious, but not at all legal. For that reason, they often have a relgious ceremony on a different day than their actual wedding. 

    Regardless of the situation, I would never call a wedding, commitment ceremony, vow renewal, or what-have-you a day that "doesn't mean anything." I think everyone is entitled to their beliefs and desires, and creating unnecessary consequences is, well, unnecessary and dramatic. Live and let live. If you don't like it, politely decline to participate.
    Wedding Countdown Ticker
  • Yeah, we had to take a time out because it made me pretty angry. (We're both staunch allies, but he can be pretty dense at times.) That's a good point. There's a difference between being insulted and being told what you can and can't do.
    image
  • I'm sitting here reading this and nodding along with J&K and Mica.  I have issues with the lying about it, and the pre-wedding stuff if you're already married.  But as long as you're up front about it being a renewal and host it properly, I don't think see anything rude about it.  It does become less important in my eyes though and if I had say 2 weddings in one weekend - where one was a PPD and one was the actual legal ceremony - I'd opt to to go the actual legal ceremony one and decline the "redo".
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_fiance-and-i-were-having-a-debate-about-do-overs?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:7672c0c9-ec98-4f84-985a-bad313673e46Post:cdab80ed-26cd-42bd-8326-4ce07682c668">Re: Fiance and I were having a debate about "do-overs."</a>:
    [QUOTE]Yeah, we had to take a time out because it made me pretty angry. <strong>(We're both staunch allies, but he can be pretty dense at times.) </strong>That's a good point. There's a difference between being insulted and being told what you can and can't do.
    Posted by TheBaney[/QUOTE]

    I'm sorry, but this is making me laugh.   I feel like he's not the only one...

    image
    Everything the light touches is my kingdom.
  • If you're implying that you don't think I'm very smart, I'm pretty offended that you are making assumptions about my intelligence and who I am as a person based on something as one dimensional as a cursory discussion on an internet forum.

    I say "if" to give you the benefit of the doubt. If that's not what you're implying, something must have been lost in translation.
    image
This discussion has been closed.
Choose Another Board
Search Boards