Mostly a vent - small question

hoffse

My shower is on Saturday, and the hostesses are planning a lovely event.  I'm very excited for it, and all the guests have RSVP'd except for one.  The one who hasn't RSVP'd is my law school roommate whom I lived with for 3 years (we graduated in May), and who I originally asked to be a bridesmaid.  In September she withdrew from the wedding because she went biglaw and said her work may not let her come to the wedding even with 8 months notice.  I was bummed, but I understood and didn't want it to affect our friendship.  The shower invitations went out three weeks ago, and she hasn't acknowledged that she got it in any way.  I emailed and called her last night and she didn't respond - the hostess needs to give the venue a headcount today or tomorrow at the very latest.

Is it wrong to be sort of hurt by this?  I lived with her for three years - I know she is absolutely glued to her phone.  It vibrates with every single email she gets and she is one of those people who has conversations in real life with one person whlie texting a different conversation to somebody else.  I know she saw my email and phone call and she ignored it.  I know this girl's family and she was raised right - she knows that RSVPs are needed for these sorts of things. 

My question: at what point do I just assume she's not coming?

EmilyTork

I would be upset she didn't RSVP. Personally, I would say she isn't coming and relay that to the venue. And if she shows, tell her she didn't respond. Oops. But that's me.

But honestly, if it isn't a huge added expense, just include her in the head count to the venue. 

Kate61487

If she can't pick up a phone I'd mark her as a no, personally.

What happens if she shows up?  Will the venue refuse to serve an extra plate? or will they have some wiggle room and just charge for the extra person?  If it would be a dead stop to have an extra person and the cost isn't too significant then I guess include her; but I'd just let the venue know "it's X people but we do have 1 extra person we just can't get ahold of" and see what they say.

hoffse

I'm sure the venue would make it work if she actually showed up, but I'm honestly not sure how much it would cost.  The venue is a country club, and the ladies are hosting lunch during the shower, so I think it might be sort of expensive for them per person.  I am actually sort of embarrassed that one of the girls on the guestlist I gave to the hostesses is being this rude.  I know it's not my fault, but many women in my circle have a keen sense of Southern Guilt about these sorts of things (ie: not only do you behave properly, but your friends should as well or it reflects on you).

She is invited to the wedding, but once that is over (and I'm sure she won't respond to that invitation either), I suppose I just need to be done trying to reach out to her.  It's sad though because I really did think we were friends and not just people who happened to live well together.

stantokm

Send her one last message that says something like, "I'm sorry that you won't be able to attend the bridal shower on Saturday.  I'd love to see you, so let's plan a time when just the two of us can get together."

The ball is in her court once again, but you've pretty much let her know that her lack of a response indicates that she isn't coming.  If she WAS planning on coming (which I doubt), she'd probably take the opportunity to say, "Oh, wait!  I am!  Is it too late?" and go from there.

STARMOON44

I agree with everyone that she's rude, but I'm kind of surprised you aren't being more understanding. You went to law school together. You should know the first year in biglaw sucks, your schedule is at the mercy of your partners, and not only can't you guarantee wedding attendance 8 months in advance, you might have a hard time with weekend plans. I think she probably wants to go, feels bad saying no all the time, and is waiting and hoping to see. Now she's still rude, but if you had three years if friendship survive lawschool, I think it would be a shame to give up now.

LiLe422

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mostly-a-vent-small-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8a37bfd1-cdbe-4b2b-956d-f3ee7a277002Post:3c8052f1-ae14-423c-8d64-446258204d3e">Re:Mostly a vent small question</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree with everyone that she's rude, <strong>but I'm kind of surprised you aren't being more understanding.</strong> You went to law school together. You should know the first year in biglaw sucks, your schedule is at the mercy of your partners, and not only can't you guarantee wedding attendance 8 months in advance, you might have a hard time with weekend plans. I think she probably wants to go, feels bad saying no all the time, and is waiting and hoping to see. Now she's still rude, but if you had three years if friendship survive lawschool, I think it would be a shame to give up now.
Posted by STARMOON44[/QUOTE]

Huh?  Are we reading the same OP?  I feel she is being super understanding of her friends work situation.

Going into biglaw is not a free pass to be douchie to your friends.  A simple phone call/email/text/fb msg would do the trick, yet she hasn't even made an attempt.

STARMOON44

Which is why I said I agreed friend is being rude. But I think there's room for forgiveness of that in a long standing friendship. I've been working in biglaw for 3 years, and have found it's really nice to be rekindling friendships with people who were too busy for our relationship for a couple years.

hoffse

I would be more understanding, but she has flaked out on every single thing I've tried to arrange with her since our second year of law school.  Literally.  We always talked in the mornings and evenings, but she didn't come to a single party, get together, etc. that I invited her to starting our 2L year.  She had a difficult college experience (dad passed away, etc.), and I have given her a pass and have been understanding about the sort of hot-cold signals I have gotten from her over the years, but the rudeness has now extended to the shower hostesses, not just me.  While I know the hostesses will not think poorly of me for her behavior, I am still embarrassed that one of my guests is being entirely nonresponsive when it comes to a lovely event they are hosting as a gift to me.  All it does is make their lives more difficult when they don't know whether she is showing up or not, and that's rudeness I can't justify when I know for a fact that she knows better (because she has complained to me a number of times about people who didn't rsvp to her own parties).

Like I said, I have no issues with her declining both the wedding and the shower.  I know that BigLaw can be awful, and I know she's in over her head.  But the reality too is that lawyers live by deadlines, emails, and their reputation.  The hostesses provided an email address, and it would have taken her about 13 seconds to fire off a quick one-line email declining and thanking them for the invitation.  She didn't even have to call.  She had three weeks to give some sort of response, and that's all I was hoping from her. 

 I have tried reaching out to her, and she doesn't just say no, she ignores me completely more than half the time these days.  Sorry if you think that's not being understanding, but frankly I'm a lawyer too, and there's only so much of a pass I can give her.  BigLaw is not an excuse to be rude, and when that rudeness finally bleeds out to my shower hostesses (who happen to be perfect strangers to her), I don't see how I'm supposed to justify that behavior.

Peledreamsofrain

In Response to Re:Mostly a vent small question:Which is why I said I agreed friend is being rude. But I think there's room for forgiveness of that in a long standing friendship. I've been working in biglaw for 3 years, and have found it's really nice to be rekindling friendships with people who were too busy for our relationship for a couple years. Posted by STARMOON44[QUOTE]

I think it's something you have to witness or go through to really understand. My husband is in his first year, and is at the mercy of the bigwigs. They own him and hold his leash hard, kind of what I imagine a medical internship is like. Some in the lawyer world views it as a right of passage, or a way of testing the mettle of newbies. For the next year I will literally only see him on the weekends, and even that's not guarenteed. And i'm his wife. The friend here is rude, yes, but probably under massive pressure and schedule uncertainty. She probably barely remembers to take her shoes off before bed at night, much less rembering to respond to social functions on time.

Jager1219

I'd be annoyed too.  You reached out to her and she should at least say I want to come and I'm trying to get out of work or something.

FWIW, my shower is next weekend and the RSVP date long came & went.  3 girls didn't RSVP in time.  Turns out one of them never got the invitation (apparently someone else in her building has a very similar name so she thinks this woman, who also just so happens to be senile, is getting her mail).  The other just had a baby and didn't know if she could make the 3 hour drive.  The third moved and lost the invitation in the move.  All 3 I think pretty legit reasons to RSVP late (if there is such a thing as a legit reason for not responding).

QueerFemme

I work in big law... I don't know any first through third year lawyer that has a life, honestly.   I don't think she gets a free pass for being rude, and I DO think she is being rude.  I just know it's not uncommon for big law associates to lose most or all of their friends in the first few years after graduation.

ETA:  My big law firm has sleeping rooms. Yep, actual rooms where you can go take a nap in the middle of the night while working on a transaction/case.  They cater breakfast lunch & dinner.   That should give you an idea of the kind of hours expected. 

hoffse

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mostly-a-vent-small-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8a37bfd1-cdbe-4b2b-956d-f3ee7a277002Post:5fce05c8-718a-4dc9-a838-214be5943c66">Re: Mostly a vent - small question</a>:
[QUOTE]I work in big law... I don't know any first through third year lawyer that has a life, honestly.   I don't think she gets a free pass for being rude, and I DO think she is being rude.  I just know it's not uncommon for big law associates to lose most or all of their friends in the first few years after graduation. ETA:  My big law firm has sleeping rooms. Yep, actual rooms where you can go take a nap in the middle of the night while working on a transaction/case.  They cater breakfast lunch & dinner.   That should give you an idea of the kind of hours expected. 
Posted by cmgilpin[/QUOTE]

<div>The thing is, I know the sort of hours expected - I also work at a firm that has the sleeping rooms, the caterer, the showers, etc.  I have pulled some long hours myself.  I am at a midsized firm, so I know it's not as intense day in and day out as hers is, but I feel like she could surely find 1 minute in a 3 week period when she could have responded.  It's (relatively) basic time management skills.  But it's whatever.  I feel like this is only partially biglaw to be honest.  I should have seen the signs back when we were in law school and she couldn't make time to grab dinner or something (because I'm sorry, but there was nothing about law school that was nearly as intense as students like to make it out to be).</div>

QueerFemme

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mostly-a-vent-small-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:8a37bfd1-cdbe-4b2b-956d-f3ee7a277002Post:2a678c76-2511-4bcf-a237-53e2de4d8c6b">Re: Mostly a vent - small question</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Mostly a vent - small question : The thing is, I know the sort of hours expected - I also work at a firm that has the sleeping rooms, the caterer, the showers, etc.  I have pulled some long hours myself.  I am at a midsized firm, so I know it's not as intense day in and day out as hers is, but I feel like she could surely find 1 minute in a 3 week period when she could have responded.  It's (relatively) basic time management skills.  But it's whatever.  I feel like this is only partially biglaw to be honest.  I should have seen the signs back when we were in law school and she couldn't make time to grab dinner or something (because I'm sorry, but there was nothing about law school that was nearly as intense as students like to make it out to be).
Posted by hoffse[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with all of this.  I DO think she should find time in her day/night/morning, whatever to send you a quick email and tell you that she can't make it.  Somehow, she found the time to tell you she couldn't be in the wedding.  So, I agree with you, that she is being rude.  I just think she is clearly overwhelmed by her new career, and probably already had the "I'm flakey" gene.  Going biglaw just made it worse.

NYCMercedes

Give it up for the shower and just count her out. She doesn't need any other call, text, reminder. The club knows how to add an extra place setting for an unexpected guest as it happens all too often. Just send her a wedding invitation when the time comes.

emeejeeayen

I have no advice, but my shower is on Saturday too (because we're only going home this weekend between now and the wedding, ha)! Also FI is in law school and plans for big law, so thanks for scaring me  

hoffse

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mostly-a-vent-small-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8a37bfd1-cdbe-4b2b-956d-f3ee7a277002Post:85e15368-2bce-475e-ae14-b1c739b0866e">Re: Mostly a vent - small question</a>:
[QUOTE]I have no advice, but my shower is on Saturday too (because we're only going home this weekend between now and the wedding, ha)! Also FI is in law school and plans for big law, so thanks for scaring me ;) 
Posted by emeejeeayen[/QUOTE]

<div>Sorry!  What year is he in?  I ask because I have been incredibly happy at a mid-sized firm (50 or so lawyers), and by my calculation I probably make more per hour (most months) than my friends who went biglaw and are miserable all the time. </div><div>
</div><div>Biglaw wines and dines you pretty hardcore during the summers and then you start working and it's basically two+ jobs.  For most I know who did it (and I went to a school that heavily funnels toward biglaw - I was definitely in the minority for avoiding it) they are completely blindsided by how much work it is and frankly how awful it is.  Everything PPs said is correct.  I was lucky enough to know to avoid it because my FI worked for the largest firm in Atlanta as a paralegal during my first two years.  I heard the stories and realized I couldn't possibly be happy there.  My FI is much more naturally competitive than me and has a thick enough skin where he could probably thrive in that environment (he's 2L now), but he also decided it wasn't worth it.  If he had done it it would have been for 3 years or so before bailing.</div><div>
</div><div>I am definitely biased, but I think midsized firms in midsized markets - smaller cities like Nashville, Charlotte, Birmingham, Orlando, New Orleans (I'm clearly southern), etc. - is really the sweet spot between income, hours, and job satisfaction.  Law schools do a pretty good job of brainwashing students into thinking it has to be biglaw or  bust - my theory is that the more students they send to the lions den, the higher the tuition rates they can charge since biglaw will pay those bills.</div>

emeejeeayen

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mostly-a-vent-small-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8a37bfd1-cdbe-4b2b-956d-f3ee7a277002Post:21344fdf-953b-4622-ae1f-bb120378ddcc">Re: Mostly a vent - small question</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Mostly a vent - small question : Sorry!  What year is he in?  I ask because I have been incredibly happy at a mid-sized firm (50 or so lawyers), and by my calculation I probably make more per hour (most months) than my friends who went biglaw and are miserable all the time.  Biglaw wines and dines you pretty hardcore during the summers and then you start working and it's basically two+ jobs.  For most I know who did it (and I went to a school that heavily funnels toward biglaw - I was definitely in the minority for avoiding it) they are completely blindsided by how much work it is and frankly how awful it is.  Everything PPs said is correct.  I was lucky enough to know to avoid it because my FI worked for the largest firm in Atlanta as a paralegal during my first two years.  I heard the stories and realized I couldn't possibly be happy there.  My FI is much more naturally competitive than me and has a thick enough skin where he could probably thrive in that environment (he's 2L now), but he also decided it wasn't worth it.  If he had done it it would have been for 3 years or so before bailing. I am definitely biased, but I think midsized firms in midsized markets - smaller cities like Nashville, Charlotte, Birmingham, Orlando, New Orleans (I'm clearly southern), etc. - is really the sweet spot between income, hours, and job satisfaction.  Law schools do a pretty good job of brainwashing students into thinking it has to be biglaw or  bust - my theory is that the more students they send to the lions den, the higher the tuition rates they can charge since biglaw will pay those bills.
Posted by hoffse[/QUOTE]

<div>1L. </div><div>
</div><div>FI worked in television before going to law school, so he's used to long hours, but I've tried to explain to him that long hours standing around a lot is different than long hours being screamed at the entire time (I work in PR, so I'm familiar with both long hours and screaming matches). </div><div>
</div><div>You're totally right about tuition rates. There are some shady practices going on there. Thankfully FI used none of his college 529 fund for undergrad (they paid him to attend, actually) so he can use it for law school. But the way law schools use transfer students to pay the bulk of tuition? Or trying to get the feds to up the max amount they will loan to law students? Wack sauce. </div><div>
</div><div>FI isn't 100% set on big law, but his goal would eventually be to go in-house at an entertainment company of some kind, and big law seems to be the fastest way to go that route. </div>