NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please!

hoffse

Hey ladies,

So I just graduated from law school, and FI is finishing up his 1L internships with a judge.  We've been invited to have dinner at the judge's house on Friday.  I have bar exam brain, and I'm probably overthinking this, but should we bring a hostess gift?  Or does that violate some rule since she's a federal judge in the district where I'll be practicing (assuming I pass)?  I promise I passed the MPRE, but that was a year ago, so I honestly can't remember - I know there's some rule about judges accepting gifts, but I feel like there's an exception for social situations and gifts under a certain amount.  Any advice?

Thanks ladies!

chelseamb11

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[QUOTE]Hey ladies, So I just graduated from law school, and FI is finishing up his 1L internships with a judge.  We've been invited to have dinner at the judge's house on Friday.  I have bar exam brain, and I'm probably overthinking this, but should we bring a hostess gift?  Or does that violate some rule since she's a federal judge in the district where I'll be practicing (assuming I pass)?  I promise I passed the MPRE, but that was a year ago, so I honestly can't remember - I know there's some rule about judges accepting gifts, but I feel like there's an exception for social situations and gifts under a certain amount.  Any advice? Thanks ladies!
Posted by hoffse[/QUOTE]

I am by far not a lawyer, so I have no clue, but I'd *guess* that it's okay in a social situation.

But you'er a lawyer as well as your FI...wouldn't you be able to know the answer to this as well as any other lawyer?

hoffse

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-etiquettelegal-ethics-question-lawyers-please?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:98f58b78-a8a4-4548-bc2a-6332e14ec530Post:1c231570-58d8-4f3c-8c6b-04e6576c33fc">Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please!</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please! : I am by far not a lawyer, so I have no clue, but I'd *guess* that it's okay in a social situation. But you'er a lawyer as well as your FI...wouldn't you be able to know the answer to this as well as any other lawyer?
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

<div>Not necessarily - FI just finished his first year, and I'm not litigating. Litigators will know the answer better than either of us, since they interact with judges on a daily basis.</div>

msuprincess04

As a lawyer, I have no idea what the correct answer is. But I can tell you this. Real world practice is nothing like law school. If you want to bring something, go for it. I'd assume that if you wanted to bring a $20 bottle of wine, it wouldn't be a big deal. And if it is, you'll be so informed. I can't imagine there would be any negative impression if that was the case, because you are meeting under a social situation and genuinely don't know. If you are really concerned, then maybe something like homemade cookies that can be either enjoyed at dinner or at a later time or bring flowers. Something simple. I'd rather bring something and have it politely turned down than not bring anything at all.

Maggie0829

I am a government contractor, so not even close to a lawyer.  But according to our ethics policies, we cannot give a gift over $25 to a government worker at any event (like their retirement party, work baby shower, work bridal shower, etc).  Now is this allows followed?  Most likely no, especially if a relative is a government worker and you are a contractor or a best friend is a government worker and you aren't, etc.

hoffse

Ok I found this in my state code of judicial conduct - so I guess cookies would be ok?

(4)  Neither a judge nor a member of his family residing in his household should accept a gift, bequest, favor, or loan from anyone if it reflects

expectation of judicial favor.

EDIT: I just feel awkward showing up empty-handed.  

chelseamb11

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please! : Not necessarily - FI just finished his first year, and I'm not litigating. Litigators will know the answer better than either of us, since they interact with judges on a daily basis.
Posted by hoffse[/QUOTE]

Ah gotcha.  I feel like if you kept it small it would be alright. But again, not a lawyer, so don't quote me on that! :)

aragx6

See, to me the "if" there makes it OK, but I suppose it's all in how you read it.

msuprincess04

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-etiquettelegal-ethics-question-lawyers-please?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:98f58b78-a8a4-4548-bc2a-6332e14ec530Post:0f332290-01aa-4938-9393-5f90ecbfb24f">Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please!</a>:
[QUOTE]See, to me the "if" there makes it OK, but I suppose it's all in how you read it.
Posted by aragx6[/QUOTE]

and this is an example of thinking wayyyy too much like an attorney. it'll wear off. :)

TheSlowskys

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-etiquettelegal-ethics-question-lawyers-please?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:98f58b78-a8a4-4548-bc2a-6332e14ec530Post:d934213b-b701-4d18-b252-3a3bad6461f7">Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please!</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please! : <strong>and this is an example of thinking wayyyy too much like an attorney. it'll wear off.</strong> :)
Posted by msuprincess04[/QUOTE]

this this this. I pretty much died the other day when a bride's musician tried to get an extra $300 out of her, although she had signed a contract. A law student was on here citing plessy v. ferguson and miranda v. arizona and telling her to get an attorney (not really, just not thinking with common sense). I know it wasn't OP, but don't overthink it. 
 
The rule says you cannot bring a gift if <strong>it reflects expectation of judicial favor.</strong> That means, if you a bringing it to say thanks for having us over, its fine. If you give a gift expecting they will decide favorably for your client, then not ok.

hoffse

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please! : this this this. I pretty much died the other day when a bride's musician tried to get an extra $300 out of her, although she had signed a contract. A law student was on here citing plessy v. ferguson and miranda v. arizona and telling her to get an attorney (not really, just not thinking with common sense). I know it wasn't OP, but don't overthink it.    The rule says you cannot bring a gift if it reflects expectation of judicial favor. That means, if you a bringing it to say thanks for having us over, its fine. If you give a gift expecting they will decide favorably for your client, then not ok.
Posted by TheSlowskys[/QUOTE]

<div>Thanks, lol!  I need to remember Plessy and Miranda for 8 more days, and then I can purge it all from my brain :)</div><div>
</div><div>Awesome, we'll bring over something small as a thank you and write a thank you note afterwards.  That judge has already agreed to serve as a reference for my FI in job searching, so I think we're in the clear.  </div>

TheSlowskys

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please! : Thanks, lol!  I need to remember Plessy and Miranda for 8 more days, and then I can purge it all from my brain :) Awesome, we'll bring over something small as a thank you and write a thank you note afterwards.  That judge has already agreed to serve as a reference for my FI in job searching, so I think we're in the clear.  
Posted by hoffse[/QUOTE]

Good luck! I don't miss studying for the bar.

Tip - eat lunch alone or go call FI.  Day 1 I ate with former classmates and they freaked me out. Day 2 I ate quietly in the park by myself and was much more zen.

hoffse

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please! : Good luck! I don't miss studying for the bar. Tip - eat lunch alone or go call FI.  Day 1 I ate with former classmates and they freaked me out. Day 2 I ate quietly in the park by myself and was much more zen.
Posted by TheSlowskys[/QUOTE]

<div>Oh man I hadn't even thought about that.  I always avoided studying in the law school library for that very reason.  Thanks, I'll definitely take that advice :)</div>

jessicabessica

In the Model Code of Judicial Conduct, there is an exception for hospitality gifts.  I don't know if your state follows the Model Code, but if you want to take a break from bar studying by researching unrelated legal issues, you could check.  

I personally would give a <$25 hostess gift (flowers already in a vase, wine if you know they drink, fancy olive oil, etc.).  When I finished my clerkship I gave my judge a loaf of homemade bread and some jam that DH and I canned. 

msuprincess04

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please! : Good luck! I don't miss studying for the bar. Tip - eat lunch alone or go call FI.  Day 1 I ate with former classmates and they freaked me out. Day 2 I ate quietly in the park by myself and was much more zen.
Posted by TheSlowskys[/QUOTE]

Going to have to say this. Or pick a friend you trust to NOT discuss the exam with. I almost didn't go to the second day of the exam because I ran into a friend of mine (who was in the top of our class) who wouldn't stop talking about the test after we asked her not to. I cried. A lot. I purposely didn't set my alarm and I was going to skip the second day all together. Until my very good friend pounded on the door until I got up and drug my butt there. Thank God he did. I passed the first time. :)

P.S. You will remember it for about 3 hours after the exam, and it will totally slip away in the weeks to follow. At a scarily fast pace. Don't worry. Anything you need to know you can Google and then Westlaw/Lexus. :) most of our job is copy and pasting from old decisions/briefs anyway.

P.P.S. My bf just finished his first year of law school and I've been practicing 4 years. I'm totally useless to him. And find that hillarious.

TheSlowskys

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_nwr-etiquettelegal-ethics-question-lawyers-please?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:98f58b78-a8a4-4548-bc2a-6332e14ec530Post:52e3928c-34f7-408b-8cb4-3aac08fb644b">Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please!</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please! : Going to have to say this. Or pick a friend you trust to NOT discuss the exam with. I almost didn't go to the second day of the exam because I ran into a friend of mine (who was in the top of our class) who wouldn't stop talking about the test after we asked her not to. I cried. A lot. I purposely didn't set my alarm and I was going to skip the second day all together. Until my very good friend pounded on the door until I got up and drug my butt there. Thank God he did. I passed the first time. :) P.S. You will remember it for about 3 hours after the exam, and it will totally slip away in the weeks to follow. At a scarily fast pace. Don't worry. Anything you need to know you can Google and then Westlaw/Lexus. :) most of our job is copy and pasting from old decisions/briefs anyway. P.P.S. My bf just finished his first year of law school and I've been practicing 4 years. I'm totally useless to him. And find that hillarious.
Posted by msuprincess04[/QUOTE]



3 hours? I'm pretty sure I forgot it by the time I reached FI's (bf then) car. Plan something fabulous to do after. we headed to the beach for the weekend.

jessicabessica

The social situation thing is in the Model Code of Judicial Conduct--I don't know if your state has adopted the model code or has something else, but wouldn't finding out be a good distraction from studying? 

I would give a <$25 hostess gift (fancy olive oil, flowers in a vase, wine if you know they drink).  I gave my judge homemade bread and a few jars of homemade jam when I finished clerking.

ETA: Sorry, I totally missed that you already looked (switching between computers/phone has taken me on a crazy journey through TK universes).

swanrat

A small hostess gift would be fine.
Good luck with the bar exam! I took the bar 4 years ago, and remember how my brain turned to mush!

nextrightthing

No advice here, just a fellow bar examinee....totally understand the bar exam brain.    Appreciate the exam advice. 

StephBeanWed61502

Bar exam passer (in two states!) here, and here is my advice:  in nearly all states (except California, and possibly Florida) the pass rate for first time bar exam takers who have graduated from an ABA accredited school is 80% or higher.  That means your only goal on the bar exam is to not be one of the 20 least-prepared people in the 100-person room. 

Now, consider that that 100-person room often includes people who: (1) never went to law school or who failed out or dropped out; (2) people who decided planning their wedding was more important than going to their Bar/Bri class; (3) people who showed up to class EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. either actively drunk or hungover; and (4) people who spent the vast majority of their study time tanning and getting high (I encountered every single one of these people in my own bar prep course, I am not making any of them up, I promise).  

My point in this is that it is highly unlikely that anyone who graduated from law school and did even 50% of the prep recommended by their bar prep course is going to be one of the 20 least-prepared people in the 100 person room.  Just stay calm during the exam and you will be fine.  Oh, and IRAC.  IRAC the CRAP out of the essays.  :-)

hoffse

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[QUOTE]Bar exam passer (in two states!) here, and here is my advice:  in nearly all states (except California, and possibly Florida) the pass rate for first time bar exam takers who have graduated from an ABA accredited school is 80% or higher.  That means your only goal on the bar exam is to not be one of the 20 least-prepared people in the 100-person room.  Now, consider that that 100-person room often includes people who: (1) never went to law school or who failed out or dropped out; (2) people who decided planning their wedding was more important than going to their Bar/Bri class; (3) people who showed up to class EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. either actively drunk or hungover; and (4) people who spent the vast majority of their study time tanning and getting high (I encountered every single one of these people in my own bar prep course, I am not making any of them up, I promise).   My point in this is that it is highly unlikely that anyone who graduated from law school and did even 50% of the prep recommended by their bar prep course is going to be one of the 20 least-prepared people in the 100 person room.  Just stay calm during the exam and you will be fine.  Oh, and IRAC.  IRAC the CRAP out of the essays.  :-)
Posted by StephBeanWed61502[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Lol this made me feel better - I've been doing fine on the diagnostics and stuff, so most of my nerves are just that I feel like I'm supposed to be nervous.  I admit I've been taking some long breaks here and there to plan the wedding, but it's been a good distraction so I don't burn out - the goal is to peak at the right moment I think.</div><div>
</div><div>My facebook exploded with bar exam woes over the last few days, and I finally just had to shut it down.  And yes I totally have a thing planned afterwards - fabulous mani-pedi and a ridiculous dinner with FI when I resurface!  I can't wait :)</div><div>
</div><div>Good luck to everybody else who is taking it also - we can all get back to our lives in T minus 8 days!</div><div>
</div>

nextrightthing

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR - Etiquette/legal ethics question - lawyers please! : Lol this made me feel better - I've been doing fine on the diagnostics and stuff, so most of my nerves are just that I feel like I'm supposed to be nervous.  I admit I've been taking some long breaks here and there to plan the wedding, but it's been a good distraction so I don't burn out - the goal is to peak at the right moment I think. My facebook exploded with bar exam woes over the last few days, and I finally just had to shut it down.  And yes I totally have a thing planned afterwards - fabulous mani-pedi and a ridiculous dinner with FI when I resurface!  I can't wait :) Good luck to everybody else who is taking it also - we can all get back to our lives in T minus 8 days!
Posted by hoffse[/QUOTE]


This advice was very comforting to me too.  The only thing WR I've really done during bar prep is a few TK breaks a day.  :)  Good luck to you.  Very excited to be DONE (even if only until November :)  

Magdeline687

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[QUOTE]Bar exam passer (in two states!) here, and here is my advice:  in nearly all states (except California, and possibly Florida) the pass rate for first time bar exam takers who have graduated from an ABA accredited school is 80% or higher.  That means your only goal on the bar exam is to not be one of the 20 least-prepared people in the 100-person room.  Now, consider that that 100-person room often includes people who: (1) never went to law school or who failed out or dropped out; (2) people who decided planning their wedding was more important than going to their Bar/Bri class; (3) people who showed up to class EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. either actively drunk or hungover; and (4) people who spent the vast majority of their study time tanning and getting high (I encountered every single one of these people in my own bar prep course, I am not making any of them up, I promise).   My point in this is that it is highly unlikely that anyone who graduated from law school and did even 50% of the prep recommended by their bar prep course is going to be one of the 20 least-prepared people in the 100 person room.  Just stay calm during the exam and you will be fine.  Oh, and IRAC.  IRAC the CRAP out of the essays.  :-)
Posted by StephBeanWed61502[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Thanks so much for this. I'm taking the bar this Tues-Thurs in CA, and I very much appreciate pep talks! 

</div>

DMoore421

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[QUOTE]Ok I found this in my state code of judicial conduct - so I guess cookies would be ok? (4)  Neither a judge nor a member of his family residing in his household should accept a gift, bequest, favor, or loan from anyone if it reflects expectation of judicial favor. EDIT: I just feel awkward showing up empty-handed.  
Posted by hoffse[/QUOTE]
i dont think a bottle of wine at a dinner party would relfect expectation of judicial favor

missqueens

This is so FUNNY, I just had a Continuing Legal Education Class (NY) on Ethics this week and the subject of gifts between lawyers and judges  came up. 

You are Absolutely allowed to give the Judge a small gift, as long as it for a "reason", not in exchange for a judicial favor.  You are going to her house and bringing a hostess gift, that is an acceptable reason.  ( A THANK YOU gift for deciding that motion in my favor, is NOT an acceptable reason!   LOL)

GOOD,  GOOD LUCK on the Bar Exam!