Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)

jayjoe

Ok, let me just preface this by saying, and not in a bitchy way, i need someone who really really knows what they are talking about.

On 12/17 my husband and i rescued a dog from a local high-kill shelter. We literally saved her as she was being walked to the room (it makes me sick to think about it). We named her Avery and she is a Shitzu, about 3-4 years old. We are working with an amazing rescue group (we are fostering her) and they are setting up possible families to adopt Avery. When we first brought her home, she had severe guarding issues. We already have a golden who outweighs her by 85lbs but he's terrified of her. She growls and snaps at him if he gets too close to: her, me or my husband, her toys, her treats (she eats next to him twice a day and is a perfect angel). Anyway, in the month that we have had her she has learned to trust. I can take toys/treats away from her with no problem because she knows she will get them back. She plays on the living room floor instead of taking a toy under the dining room table and guarding it. She barely growls at Coby and just 2 days ago actually played with him for the first time! We thought we were getting through. And then an amazing family came along to possibly adopt her. We did a meet and greet/home visit. These people were amazing! Avery growled anytime they came near her. The husband gave her a treat and the second she took the treat she bit his finger drawing blood. At one point, the wife was sitting, no where near Avery, and Avery just growled and snarled at her. The rescue is getting someone to come and help Avery with her issues, apparently these are very common  in some rescue dogs and thankfully, easily treatable. The trainer wont be able to be here for 2 weeks though! Does anyone have any legit advice for us? We would love to start working on her problems and get a leg up on the situation. She is such a cute little cuddle monster with us, but no one else. We are afraid to have people over now

KellyBrian2013

This sounds harsh and I'm sure I'll be flamed for it, but with so many adoptable and well-tempered pets out there, why continue to foster and attempt to adopt out a dog that has aggressive tendencies and a bite history?

Does the rescue know that she bit someone and drew blood? If so and they continue on the path to placing her, if she bites someone else in the future, the rescue could be liable. If they aren't aware and it comes out to them after the fact, YOU could be liable.

ETA: In the meantime, I would hire a professional behaviorist. Not a "trainer", but a behaviorist who can come into your home and observe the behaviors, the triggers, your reactions, etc. They may be able to help you understand why these behaviors are happening and how to manage them. There likely is no fix for them, to be honest, but they may be manageable in the right circumstances. In the meantime, I'd keep the dog away from any strangers and/or children... or just away from people in general as much as possible. Dogs like this are unpredictable and can be dangerous, despite their relatively small stature.

MattsPenguin

The biting thing scares me. 

Have you had any strangers at your house before the potential adopting family?  That's the only thing that I can think of.  Have her used to meeting new people.  Maybe start with short visits by friends and family.  But be very aware of her temperament.  We've had our dog long enough that we can start to tell when she's about to get hyper/barking/growling.  We can try to thwart it by ignoring her completely.  If Avery starts to get into the "I'm going to bite or be aggressive" mood, then you can have your friends leave.

That's my only thought.

Habs2Hart

Speak to professionals, or a board that is dedicated to rescues. 

She clearly has trust issues, and issues with territorial issues.  She has learned to trust you, which is good, but she doesn't trust others.  I think she needs to be socialized, but carefully.  Is she crate trained?  Keeping her in a crate when new people come into the house is a wise idea, but let her be able to see people coming and going.  I would also look into a muzzle the first few times you let her interact with new people.   

Clients of mine have a rescue and she still barks and growls at new people, but she listens to her owners and is great with their family, and grandkids, so they can be rehabbed.

The biting is scary.  A dog can be automatically euthenized for drawing blood with a bite.  Does the rescue know that the dog drew blood?  As a foster, you can also be liable for damage if the person files against you.  Dog bites are serious things. 

calindi

Hi!  I'm not a regular poster here, I usually am on Military Brides, but I'm a dog lover, so I thought I'd drop in and see if I can help.  My dog also had some really bad defensive behaviors when we adopted her, though she was very young so I think she more easily adapted.  Still, we did a LOT of research and what we learned definitely helped.

Essentially what has happened is the dog believes she has to protect herself and cannot rely on anyone as her Alpha.  In order to calm her, it will be essential to establish Alpha dominance over her so she knows that you are going to protect her and she doesn't have to do it.  Once she knows she's not the Alpha, that can be transferred to someone else (whoever adopts her) as her Alpha.

It's going to take time, and she might not ever be great at it.  But socialization is key, and in gradual steps.  Reward every single example of good behavior with over-the-top praise and rewards (what's her currency?  My dog will literally do anything for a little piece of grilled chicken.  Some dogs it's a ball, some dogs it's a cuddle, some dogs like regular dog treats.  Figure out her best currency).  So after she played with your dog, or when she reacts well to you both, praise her immensely!  It sounds like you've already made great steps in getting her to feel comfortable in your home.

The key is to make sure she adjusts to strangers easier, and that means lots of exposure.  Rather than keep her in the house and fear having people over, you need to make it a point to expose her (gradually and gently) to the things she doesn't like.

I'd start with the Alpha stuff now, since it doesn't require potentially exacerbating the situation by stressing her out with strange people and dogs.  The trainer will help with that.  Make sure when you walk her, you keep her next to you or behind you, not in front.  Always walk through a door first before allowing her to walk through. 

Enact the "nothing in life is free" philosophy - make her sit for her food, make her sit or lie down for you to open the door, take her for a long walk before you feed her.  If she feels she needs to work for something, she'll know you control the outcome, and thus she'll feel less like she has to take care of herself.

And if she gets at all aggressive, put a firm hand on her neck and say "No!" confidently and firmly.  If you feel comfortable, roll her on her back.  When my dog did that, she was so little we'd pick her up to restrain her, and look straight into her eyes.  She learned that fun time stopped and she wasn't rewarded when she acted like that.   Shouting makes it worse, but calm confidence is best.  If a person or a dog scares her, don't remove her from the situation - remove the thing that scares her.  Stand between her and what she's barking at and tell the person to move away, or have someone move the dog that's bothering her away.  She'll learn that you will keep the scary stuff away, and thus will trust you to protect her.

About the biting - don't play tug-of-war, as that will convince her she'll have to guard her toys or someone's taking them.  If she nips you or your husband playfully, cry and carry on like she hacked off your finger, and turn  your back on her and refuse to engage with her for a few minutes.  If she likes you guys and thinks she hurt you, she'll hopefully learn bite inhibition quickly that way.

sparent2010

My question for you is since you started fostering her how much socialization have you done with her?

It takes years for severly abused dogs to accept people and/or other dogs. Talk with a behavorist and your vet on the best plan of action. Talk with the rescue and try to get in contact with the trainer. They can probably give you a good place to start.

LP11509

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:f4914f30-795d-46d6-a5f2-3d3d5ec3fd50">Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]Ok, let me just preface this by saying, and not in a bitchy way, <strong>i need someone who really really knows what they are talking about. </strong>On 12/17 my husband and i rescued a dog from a local high-kill shelter. We literally saved her as she was being walked to the room (it makes me sick to think about it). We named her Avery and she is a Shitzu, about 3-4 years old. We are working with an amazing rescue group (we are fostering her) and they are setting up possible families to adopt Avery. When we first brought her home, she had severe guarding issues. We already have a golden who outweighs her by 85lbs but he's terrified of her. She growls and snaps at him if he gets too close to: her, me or my husband, her toys, her treats (she eats next to him twice a day and is a perfect angel). Anyway, in the month that we have had her she has learned to trust. I can take toys/treats away from her with no problem because she knows she will get them back. She plays on the living room floor instead of taking a toy under the dining room table and guarding it. She barely growls at Coby and just 2 days ago actually played with him for the first time! We thought we were getting through. And then an amazing family came along to possibly adopt her. We did a meet and greet/home visit. These people were amazing! Avery growled anytime they came near her. The husband gave her a treat and the second she took the treat she bit his finger drawing blood. At one point, the wife was sitting, no where near Avery, and Avery just growled and snarled at her. The rescue is getting someone to come and help Avery with her issues, apparently these are very common  in some rescue dogs and thankfully, easily treatable. The trainer wont be able to be here for 2 weeks though! Does anyone have any legit advice for us? We would love to start working on her problems and get a leg up on the situation. She is such a cute little cuddle monster with us, but no one else. We are afraid to have people over now :(
Posted by jayjoe[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Your vet would be a great person to ask, then. 

</div>

jayjoe

Kelly: they are absolutely aware, thats why they are sending someone to help us out. Avery is completely adoptable, she just needs to get over her guarding issues. Just because an animal can be aggressive does not (in my eyes) mean they should be put down. Although i am using an extreme case, take the Vick dogs. THey were fighters and vicious. After very heavy rehab, these dogs have become everything from family pets to therapy dogs. Also, she has been nothing but loving to us. Like i posted, she has now grown close to our dog. Avery has started to play with and sleep with Coby and looks for him when he is not around. We have had a ton of people over (my parents, my nieces etc) in the last month and she had not reacted like that. The couple in question were very understanding as they had 2 rescue dogs, one of which was a biter who was trained properly and no longer is. I've been working with rescues and helping to place animals for years. We've had dogs that started off as biters and then were properly trained. I've never seen the training though. Was hoping someone had been through it.

lbarr088

I'm a Victoria Stilwell fan myself.  

Anywho, my advice is to keep on doing what you are doing.  You said a trainer will be there in a couple weeks and I think you should wait it out for someone more qualified to deal with the situation, especially since the dog is biting.  

Also, the whole "alpha" thing isn't necessarily true (I"m not discrediting it either).  In the wild many "alpha" animals do not show aggressive tendencies and in some packs, they constantly switch the role of alpha.  

jayjoe

BTW, my fault, it is a behaviourist, NOT a trainer. I was just talking to someone about a trainer and thats prob why i put that.
Milk, yes i came to a wedding board for a few reasons. One, lets face it, not everything on here is WR LOL Second, in the 4 years i've been on this board i've seen a crap load of good advice handed out. In Oct i had a miscarriage. I came here because it was easier to talk to "strangers" for me and i got a lot of support and it truly helped me. And lastly, i know there are a bunch of pet owners on here and i've seen advice aked for often. I was just hoping maybe someone was familiar with this I agree with you though, i do believe she trusts us and thats it. SHe knows we would never hurt her. I spoke to our vet right after we called the rescue and they said basically what you guys are saying: trusting us, not trusting others, being scared, going on survival instincts. They agreed with the behaviourist and also reassured us that this was easy to fix. If she was aggressive all the time, different story. But it was just that once. For instance, my mom, who Avery never met, came over. She growled at first. My mom started to pet her and talk soothingly and the next thing you know Avery is her best friend. And up until that visit, she had NEVER snapped at us or given us the impression that she was about to. We've had people over since and she has not been aggressive, but everytime someone does come over, we get nervous.

calindi

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:e172beee-e371-49e1-9113-5bfd01df77f0">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm a Victoria Stilwell fan myself.   Anywho, my advice is to keep on doing what you are doing.  You said a trainer will be there in a couple weeks and I think you should wait it out for someone more qualified to deal with the situation, especially since the dog is biting.   Also, the whole "alpha" thing isn't necessarily true (I"m not discrediting it either).  In the wild many "alpha" animals do not show aggressive tendencies and in some packs, they constantly switch the role of alpha.  
Posted by lbarr088[/QUOTE]

The way I see it is that having an Alpha makes the dog more calm because they don't feel the need to defend themself or their things - someone else will do it. 

It's not that every dog necessarily needs it or else they'll bite and be vicious - my grandma's dog was definitely the Alpha (rather, I'd say she thought she was Queen of the World) but she didn't bite and was a good (if totally bratty) housepet her whole 14 years of life.  The dog in the office next to mine is totally defensive of her bed and growls and nips at anybody who goes close to it - but her owner doesn't care.  If that dog was looking for a new owner, it would probably have to be trained out of those behaviors.

I think the point is that enforcing an Alpha for this dog might give it comfort and allow it to not feel the need to be so territorial and defensive.  Not that it's essential or necessary or natural, just that it might help!

KellyBrian2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:8a269f18-a3de-4afb-9eff-e4c7fcd318fb">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]Hi! I'm not a regular poster here, I usually am on Military Brides, but I'm a dog lover, so I thought I'd drop in and see if I can help. My dog also had some really bad defensive behaviors when we adopted her, though she was very young so I think she more easily adapted. Still, we did a LOT of research and what we learned definitely helped. <strong>Essentially what has happened is the dog believes she has to protect herself and cannot rely on anyone as her Alpha</strong>. In order to calm her, <strong>it will be essential to establish Alpha dominance over her</strong> so she knows that you are going to protect her and she doesn't have to do it. <strong> Once she knows she's not the Alpha, that can be transferred to someone else (whoever adopts her) as her Alpha</strong>. It's going to take time, and she might not ever be great at it. But socialization is key, and in gradual steps. Reward every single example of good behavior with over-the-top praise and rewards (what's her currency? My dog will literally do anything for a little piece of grilled chicken. Some dogs it's a ball, some dogs it's a cuddle, some dogs like regular dog treats. Figure out her best currency). So after she played with your dog, or when she reacts well to you both, praise her immensely! It sounds like you've already made great steps in getting her to feel comfortable in your home. The key is to make sure she adjusts to strangers easier, and that means lots of exposure. Rather than keep her in the house and fear having people over, you need to make it a point to expose her (gradually and gently) to the things she doesn't like. I'd<strong> start with the Alpha stuff now</strong>, since it doesn't require potentially exacerbating the situation by stressing her out with strange people and dogs. The trainer will help with that. Make sure when you walk her, you keep her next to you or behind you, not in front. <strong>Always walk through a door first before allowing her to walk through.</strong> Enact the "nothing in life is free" philosophy - make her sit for her food, make her sit or lie down for you to open the door, take her for a long walk before you feed her. If she feels she needs to work for something, she'll know you control the outcome, and thus she'll feel less like she has to take care of herself. <strong>And if she gets at all aggressive, put a firm hand on her neck and say "No!" confidently and firmly. If you feel comfortable, roll her on her back. When my dog did that, she was so little we'd pick her up to restrain her, and look straight into her eyes. </strong> She learned that fun time stopped and she wasn't rewarded when she acted like that. Shouting makes it worse, but calm confidence is best. <strong>If a person or a dog scares her, don't remove her from the situation - remove the thing that scares her. Stand between her and what she's barking at and tell the person to move away, or have someone move the dog that's bothering her away. She'll learn that you will keep the scary stuff away, and thus will trust you to protect her.</strong> About the biting - don't play tug-of-war, as that will convince her she'll have to guard her toys or someone's taking them. If she nips you or your husband playfully, cry and carry on like she hacked off your finger, and turn your back on her and refuse to engage with her for a few minutes. If she likes you guys and thinks she hurt you, she'll hopefully learn bite inhibition quickly that way.
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]

Oh, good heavens. PLEASE do not give training advice if you are not a trained professional. What you have stated here about "alpha dominance" is VERY outdated and can lead to establishing MORE problems. It has very little to do with being "alpha" and very little to do with "dominance". What OP described sounds more like distrust and resource guarding, but it is impossible to say for sure without actually being able to observe the environment and the behaviors.

My alpha dog at home (and he is CLEARLY the alpha in our "pack") does not walk through the doorway first. He waits for the last of the dogs to exit before following.

And by looking an aggressive or untrusting dog straight in the eyes as you advised, you make the problem WORSE. Eye contact is a HUGE trigger for aggression, especially in a dog whose guard is already elevated. And the "alpha roll" as you described is outdated - alpha wolves (that the technique is based on) do not ever forcefully roll another wolf. Lower ranked wolves VOLUNTARILY roll over as a sign of submission... one that won't submit instigates a fight (generally by, gasp, making eye contact). And putting your hand onto and applying pressure to a dog that is already showing aggressive tendancies, has already bitten someone, and is uncomfortable? That is flat out asking for another bite.

Also, if you insist on removing whatever "is scaring" her every time she growls or snaps, you are teaching her that the behavior is acceptable because you are rewarding it by removing the negative stimulus... this is VERY basic psychology. You are better to turn and remove her from the situation so that she understand it is not acceptable behavior.


Seriously OP - this is why you need a LICENSED BEHAVIORIST and not an internet forum. Try this poster's advice and I guarantee you'll get bit and make the problem worse.

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:1529df71-df10-4040-a82f-2685e52c7df1">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]The only thing I can think of is to watch Cesar Millan or read his books. He has dealt with some seriously badly behaved dogs. If you feel you can start doing his things on your own, go for it. But I would look into trying to find a Cesar Millan type in your area.
Posted by crfb87[/QUOTE]

I'm not a Cesar fan, but even his show posts the "do not try this at home" warning. The biggest thing to take away from him is confidence and trust - but even he forces the issue sometimes. Remember that the entire training process is never seen on the show and the producers are not going to show instances where he is bit or the dog isn't reacting in the manner that he'd like.

Regardless of these things and whether or not I agree with his techniques, you also need to remember that Cesar knows how to read dog body language. If nothing else, this is critical. The slightless ear twitch, change in tail position, etc. can be an indicator for the dog to be more stressed, ready to react, etc. so if you are not trained in how to pick up on these signs, PLEASE do not try his techniques yourself.

CALL A BEHAVIORIST and/or YOUR VET

KellyBrian2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:f47498ca-81c4-4597-8243-c43233f23eb7">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]Kelly: they are absolutely aware, thats why they are sending someone to help us out. Avery is completely adoptable, she just needs to get over her guarding issues. Just because an animal can be aggressive does not (in my eyes) mean they should be put down. <strong>Although i am using an extreme case, take the Vick dogs. THey were fighters and vicious</strong>. After very heavy rehab, these dogs have become everything from family pets to therapy dogs. Also, she has been nothing but loving to us. Like i posted, she has now grown close to our dog. Avery has started to play with and sleep with Coby and looks for him when he is not around. We have had a ton of people over (my parents, my nieces etc) in the last month and she had not reacted like that. The couple in question were very understanding as they had 2 rescue dogs, one of which was a biter who was trained properly and no longer is. I've been working with rescues and helping to place animals for years. We've had dogs that started off as biters and then were properly trained. I've never seen the training though. Was hoping someone had been through it.
Posted by jayjoe[/QUOTE]

The difference being that many of the Vick dogs were DOG aggressive, not human aggressive... and there is a HUGE difference between the two. Let's remember that not all of Vick's dogs were saved, either.

Your best bet is to get ahold of a behaviorist (ask your veterinarian for recommendations) until your rescue's person gets there.

But I stand by what I said: with so many adoptable dogs out there that don't have aggression problems and/or bite histories, I don't always understand why people try so hard on dogs with significant issues.

calindi

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:911ed623-4993-4768-b4d9-ae17d8e635da">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]BTW, my fault, it is a behaviourist, NOT a trainer. I was just talking to someone about a trainer and thats prob why i put that. Milk, yes i came to a wedding board for a few reasons. One, lets face it, not everything on here is WR LOL Second, in the 4 years i've been on this board i've seen a crap load of good advice handed out. In Oct i had a miscarriage. I came here because it was easier to talk to "strangers" for me and i got a lot of support and it truly helped me. And lastly, i know there are a bunch of pet owners on here and i've seen advice aked for often. I was just hoping maybe someone was familiar with this :( I agree with you though, i do believe she trusts us and thats it. SHe knows we would never hurt her. I spoke to our vet right after we called the rescue and they said basically what you guys are saying: trusting us, not trusting others, being scared, going on survival instincts. They agreed with the behaviourist and also reassured us that this was easy to fix. If she was aggressive all the time, different story. But it was just that once. For instance, my mom, who Avery never met, came over. She growled at first. My mom started to pet her and talk soothingly and the next thing you know Avery is her best friend. And up until that visit, she had NEVER snapped at us or given us the impression that she was about to. We've had people over since and she has not been aggressive, but everytime someone does come over, we get nervous.
Posted by jayjoe[/QUOTE]

Okay, so this isn't every single time.  I'd say try to have friends come over, and eventually introduce her to other dogs (always both on leash or through a fence).

Always let her go to them first, don't have them even look at her, and definitely the 'trying to give her a treat' was a bad idea - don't let them go into her space, allow her to come to them when she's ready, sniff their feet, etc.  I always put my hand down, knuckles up far enough away that they can come to it and sniff it but not be afraid of it (plus that angle makes it difficult to bite, not like fingers going towards them).    Never have someone pet her until she has sniffed them and is allowing them comfortably in her space.  That will prevent nips and bites!

lbarr088

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:8acbd463-dd18-4b47-ab23-86a2d09490e5">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!) : The way I see it is that having an Alpha makes the dog more calm because they don't feel the need to defend themself or their things - someone else will do it.  It's not that every dog necessarily needs it or else they'll bite and be vicious - my grandma's dog was definitely the Alpha (rather, I'd say she thought she was Queen of the World) but she didn't bite and was a good (if totally bratty) housepet her whole 14 years of life.  The dog in the office next to mine is totally defensive of her bed and growls and nips at anybody who goes close to it - but her owner doesn't care.  If that dog was looking for a new owner, it would probably have to be trained out of those behaviors. I think the point is that enforcing an Alpha for this dog might give it comfort and allow it to not feel the need to be so territorial and defensive.  Not that it's essential or necessary or natural, just that it might help!
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]

<div>I agree with what you're saying but maybe it's the wording that I didn't like.  The trainers/behaviorists I was always around when I worked in the veterinary field are very anti-Cesar and I used to love him.  I think he does a good job but the whole "Alpha" terminology is what annoyed the trainers I worked with.  </div><div>
</div><div>I think today when you think of "Alpha" training with dogs you think of dominance.  A lot of time dominance with animals requires force and that is not true to the "Alpha" in the wild.  Sure, there is some, but not what we have commercialized it as (if that makes sense).  </div><div>
</div><div>Instead of saying " I want to show my dog I am Alpha" I think it's better to want to have the dog's attention focused completely on you (which isn't necessarily being alpha).  In doing this the dog is focused on you and the reward or treat it knows it will get when it exhibits good behavior.  </div><div>
</div><div>This whole thing is very potato, potahto, but as they say most dog trainers disagree with every other trainers methods ;)</div><div>
</div><div>ETA:</div><div>1. That was long, wow.</div><div>2.  That probably didn't make a whole lot of sense either.</div>

KellyBrian2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:8acbd463-dd18-4b47-ab23-86a2d09490e5">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!) : The way I see it is that having an Alpha makes the dog more calm because they don't feel the need to defend themself or their things - someone else will do it.  It's not that every dog necessarily needs it or else they'll bite and be vicious - my grandma's dog was definitely the Alpha (rather, I'd say she thought she was Queen of the World) but she didn't bite and was a good (if totally bratty) housepet her whole 14 years of life.  The dog in the office next to mine is totally defensive of her bed and growls and nips at anybody who goes close to it - but her owner doesn't care.  If that dog was looking for a new owner, it would probably have to be trained out of those behaviors. I think the point is that enforcing an Alpha for this dog might give it comfort and allow it to not feel the need to be so territorial and defensive.  Not that it's essential or necessary or natural, just that it might help!
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]

Please. Just STOP giving advice. Because it is wrong and terribly misguided.

You don't need to be dominant over your dog. You don't need to be alpha. What you need is to be the leader and for your dog to trust you - dominance/"alpha" position is completely irrelevant.

jayjoe

Ok, this is crazy long but this is how we saved her (if you are not interested, skip ahead LOL!) I run a donation drive every Christmas for the local shelters. Joe and i were dropping off donations when i saw a guy dropping off a beautiful shitzu. My heart broke. I turned to joe and said "everything in me is saying save this dog!" Maybe it was me being all swept up in the holiday cheer. We are not allowed to have 2 dogs but Joe and i thought "we'll foster!" I called my friend who runs a rescue and they said they would sponsor us but, according to shelter rules, the dog needs to be put up for adoption and if no one takes her, we get her. An hour later i get a call from my friend "you need to go get the dog! she is peeing blood, the shelter said "xrays show she is full of stones and its not worth it for us to save her"." So joe and i ran to the shelter, they gave us the run around. (the brooklyn acc is hell on earth. Words will never begin to describe the filth of the building or the apathy of the workers!) Finally i break down and scream at the guy "you are going to kill her! i'm not leaving without her!!" He says fine. The door opens...and its NOT the little girl we originally. For the rest of my life i will never forget her face. Avery came walking out, matted hair, tail full of knots, feces and pine needles, dried and fresh blood soaking her hind legs. Her head was down and when she looked up, i swear on my life her eyes said "i give up. i have nothing left." (btw, totally crying as i write this). So we took her home and i cut all the knots off and scrubbed her clean. She just sat in the tub like a lump, zero fight left. Then we let her wander around the house and investigate. She was peeing blood every 15 minutes, my house looked like a massacre. The rescue paid for her surgery and within 3 days she had surgery. It was one stone that took up 80% of her bladder. It turns out the dog we saw was a yorkie and the owner had a friend at the shelter and was just visiting. Avery had been brought in as a "stray", she was found wandering in a very bad area of Brooklyn. The theory floating around was she got sick, the owner couldnt afford to pay so she let her loose. Sadly, i see cases like that on an almost daily basis. I honestly feel like we were given her for a reason. I will not give up on this little one. The love she shows us is beyond words and for the life of me i have NO idea how i will let her go when the time comes. If you are still reading, thanks. If not, i understand LOL

lbarr088

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:02d674d9-f030-4fc6-aa97-1ffed4f9bc15">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]Ok, this is crazy long but this is how we saved her (if you are not interested, skip ahead LOL!) I run a donation drive every Christmas for the local shelters. Joe and i were dropping off donations when i saw a guy dropping off a beautiful shitzu. My heart broke. I turned to joe and said "everything in me is saying save this dog!" Maybe it was me being all swept up in the holiday cheer. We are not allowed to have 2 dogs but Joe and i thought "we'll foster!" I called my friend who runs a rescue and they said they would sponsor us but, according to shelter rules, the dog needs to be put up for adoption and if no one takes her, we get her. An hour later i get a call from my friend "you need to go get the dog! she is peeing blood, the shelter said "xrays show she is full of stones and its not worth it for us to save her"." So joe and i ran to the shelter, they gave us the run around. (the brooklyn acc is hell on earth. Words will never begin to describe the filth of the building or the apathy of the workers!) Finally i break down and scream at the guy "you are going to kill her! i'm not leaving without her!!" He says fine. The door opens...and its NOT the little girl we originally. For the rest of my life i will never forget her face. Avery came walking out, matted hair, tail full of knots, feces and pine needles, dried and fresh blood soaking her hind legs. Her head was down and when she looked up, i swear on my life her eyes said "i give up. i have nothing left." (btw, totally crying as i write this). So we took her home and i cut all the knots off and scrubbed her clean. She just sat in the tub like a lump, zero fight left. Then we let her wander around the house and investigate. She was peeing blood every 15 minutes, my house looked like a massacre. The rescue paid for her surgery and within 3 days she had surgery. It was one stone that took up 80% of her bladder. It turns out the dog we saw was a yorkie and the owner had a friend at the shelter and was just visiting. Avery had been brought in as a "stray", she was found wandering in a very bad area of Brooklyn. The theory floating around was she got sick, the owner couldnt afford to pay so she let her loose. Sadly, i see cases like that on an almost daily basis. I honestly feel like we were given her for a reason. I will not give up on this little one. The love she shows us is beyond words and for the life of me i have NO idea how i will let her go when the time comes. If you are still reading, thanks. If not, i understand LOL
Posted by jayjoe[/QUOTE]

<div>Paragraphs are your friend.  Holy crap!</div>

calindi

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:3009044d-78b7-48c0-a8d5-3da8a8b086ab">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!) : Please. Just STOP giving advice. Because it is wrong and terribly misguided. You don't need to be dominant over your dog. You don't need to be alpha. What you need is to be the leader and for your dog to trust you - dominance/"alpha" position is completely irrelevant.
Posted by KellyBrian2013[/QUOTE]

You disagree.  That's totally fine, there's about as many different theories in how to train dogs as there are in how to raise kids.  But that doesn't mean I should stop giving the advice that worked well for me.  I worked with two different pet behaviorists, I've read about 10 books right now, and this has worked with my dog.  She asked for advice, I gave it. If she just wanted your advice, she would have PM'd you. 

If you read the books I read (including Cesar's), you'll see that "Alpha" doesn't mean anything more than being a trusted leader.  It's definitely misconstrued by many people into something aggressive and negative, but I assure you I've never yelled at my dog, there's very little correction except for a quick gutteral "eh eh!" when she's doing something wrong, and there's lots and lots of positive reinforcement.  She was scared & territorial when we got her from the pound, and she's a very happy, well-adjusted friendly housepet now who plays well with children, dogs, and people and is scared of no one.  So I did something right.

KellyBrian2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:b0dc4b5f-eebe-4bfa-98ae-4a7a11cce2e8">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!) : You disagree.  That's totally fine, there's about as many different theories in how to train dogs as there are in how to raise kids.  But that doesn't mean I should stop giving the advice that worked well for me.  I worked with two different pet behaviorists, I've read about 10 books right now, and this has worked with my dog.  She asked for advice, I gave it. If she just wanted your advice, she would have PM'd you.  If you read the books I read (including Cesar's), you'll see that "Alpha" doesn't mean anything more than being a trusted leader.  It's definitely misconstrued by many people into something aggressive and negative, but I assure you I've never yelled at my dog, there's very little correction except for a quick gutteral "eh eh!" when she's doing something wrong, and there's lots and lots of positive reinforcement.  She was scared & territorial when we got her from the pound, and she's a very happy, well-adjusted friendly housepet now who plays well with children, dogs, and people and is scared of no one.  So I did something right.
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]

My advice gets her to call someone with a professional license who can observe the behavior, help OP understand why its happening, and the best ways to manage it.

Your advice is telling her to "alpha roll" the dog, put her hands on the dog, and make eye contact with the dog - all things that escalate aggressive behavior. Google it - eye contact is a CHALLENGE. In a majority of situations, your advice is going to get the OP bit.


Also: books are full of misguided information. Anyone can write a book - remember that. And Cesar's TV show isn't popular because the editors show his training not working. How often do they do a follow up? How often do you see - besides the 5 minutes at the end - the family working with the "new and improved" dog? In many of the episodes I've seen, the "problem" has been conquered but reading the dog's body language shows a very nervous, very worn down animal that has been <em>forced</em> to do things instead of trained to things, and yes, there is a difference.

lbarr088

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:b0dc4b5f-eebe-4bfa-98ae-4a7a11cce2e8">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!) : You disagree.  That's totally fine, there's about as many different theories in how to train dogs as there are in how to raise kids.  But that doesn't mean I should stop giving the advice that worked well for me.  I worked with two different pet behaviorists, I've read about 10 books right now, and this has worked with my dog.  She asked for advice, I gave it. If she just wanted your advice, she would have PM'd you.  If you read the books I read (including Cesar's), you'll see that "Alpha" doesn't mean anything more than being a trusted leader.  It's definitely misconstrued by many people into something aggressive and negative, but I assure you I've never yelled at my dog, there's very little correction except for a quick gutteral "eh eh!" when she's doing something wrong, and there's lots and lots of positive reinforcement.  She was scared & territorial when we got her from the pound, and she's a very happy, well-adjusted friendly housepet now who plays well with children, dogs, and people and is scared of no one.  So I did something right.
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>So by what you described you are actually  doing reward-based/positive reinforcement training... not alpha training.</div><div>
</div><div>ETA: Cesar has softened his approach a lot from what he used to do and incorporates positive reinforcement mainly because people were giving him a lot of crap.  

</div>

jayjoe

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_dog-people-need-advice-badly-long?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e34e4147-e433-41f0-b81a-158821710f0dPost:04f84c45-62c2-4f81-8a39-75bcd7d76768">Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!)</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dog People: I Need Advice Badly! (long!) : The difference being that many of the Vick dogs were DOG aggressive, not human aggressive [QUOTE]

Yup, but even the HUMAN aggressive ones were adopted out. 

[QUOTE]Your best bet is to get ahold of a behaviorist (ask your veterinarian for recommendations) until your rescue's person gets there.[QUOTE]

LOL thats what i have been saying. We have one but he's booked for two weeks. He is certified and comes highly recommended but we have to wait. I was just hoping to get a head start, even by doing little things. SHe has only bitten once but obviously we want to make that the last.

[QUOTE] i stand by what I said: with so many adoptable dogs out there that don't have aggression problems and/or bite histories, I don't always understand why people try so hard on dogs with significant issues.
Posted by KellyBrian2013[/QUOTE]

When we saved her, all of her intake papers said friendly. The staff there said she was scared but not a peep out of her. When we put her in the car, she was wrapped in a towel in my arms. She looked at me, gave me a kiss like she was saying thank you and then went to sleep. Again, with only one bite, that is no where near significant. I completely understand you not understanding but i have to ask, and i am NOT asking to be an azzhole (i swear!!), but what am i supposed to do? Bring her back to the shelter and say "hey she growls and she bit someone once. She weighs 10lbs soaking wet but please kill her?" Cuz thats what they would do.

KellyBrian2013

OP - I stand behind my advice to find someone who can be there NOW to observe and modify behavior.

However, in the meantime here is a GREAT resource, Dr. Sophia Yin:
http://drsophiayin.com/resources/dog_behavior/

jayjoe

I did use paragraphs. As you can see from my last two posts something wonky is going on. But thanks.

jayjoe

Thank you everyone for the advice. Kelly thank you for the link!!!!! We had 2 people that could see us now, but one turned out to not be certified (umm???) and the other one never called back after we called her to confirm.

KellyBrian2013

"I completely understand you not understanding but i have to ask, and i am NOT asking to be an azzhole (i swear!!), but what am i supposed to do? Bring her back to the shelter and say "hey she growls and she bit someone once. She weighs 10lbs soaking wet but please kill her?" Cuz thats what they would do."

Honestly? If it was me, I'd either be telling the rescue that they needed to get someone out RIGHT.NOW... not in two weeks.

Or I'd consider taking her to the vet and having her humanely euthanized. 10 lbs. soaking wet or not, she did enough damage to draw blood once already - and in most cities/counties/states, that's enough to be deemed a "dangerous dog" and open you up to a world of legal liabilities if she were ever to bite again.

Why not rescue a dog that DOESN'T have a bite history?

ETA: You are welcome for the link. The behaviorist I work with recommends Dr. Yin's website a lot to help people understand why things occur the way they do and the best ways to modify and manage behavior.


Have you tried looking up a behavioral doctor near you? We have one near me who is phenomenal...

calindi

Kelly, I disagree entirely that she should put the dog down if it's a one time thing and when someone else was reaching for her.  Young dogs do it all the time, but they're trained early enough that they don't draw blood.  This girl got a late start, but can likewise be trained.  It wasn't like she hunted down the human and bit him - that would have an entirely different response to a scared dog biting someone who was invading her territory.   I do agree it absolutely cannot be allowed to happen again, but there's ways to change the behavior (and ways to protect others in the meantime).  As you disagree with my advice, I disagree fully with yours.

jayjoe - do your research, be skeptical (as others did point out, anyone can write a book, and anyone - like me - can give internet advice), talk to your vet, talk to behavioral therapists.  Overall, keep showing her love, make sure she feels comfortable in your home and with your dog, gradually (and safely) introduce her to strangers and other dogs.  Reward her immensely for every improvement she makes.  Though it might seem not related, train her to sit, lie down, stay, and come (don't let her off the leash at all - just get a long leash to practice "come").  Make her do these things in order to get what she wants - she'll learn you're in command and feel more comfortable and less likely to be defensive.  Make sure your priority is everyone else's safety right now, so don't let people put their hands out to her again, and for the time being absolutely keep her away from children.  Keep her on a leash always when introducing her to someone or something new.  Make sure she's well exercised.

Good luck!  Let me know how the little girl fares.

KellyBrian2013

If she doesn't already know basic commands, keep in mind that learning "down" may be very difficult for her as it is an incredibly submissive/vulnerable position for dogs. Nervous or unconfident dogs often have the most difficulty with mastering the down command...

sparent2010

JJ, why don't you try taking her out of the home to meet people? You can work with her there and have people that are dog savvy come and meet her in a neutral location. This could help with her being territorial. Many dogs/animals tend to be less aggressive when meeting new people or animals in a neutral location.

But Kelly is right someone needs to observe her and work with you/her. That is the best advice one can offer.

jayjoe

Kelly, I'm going to read the whole thing when i get home but just skimming through it i was seeing stuff that could totally help us.

We dont know if she had a bite history. In that mess of a post i put up, she was brought in as a stray but was very friendly to all the workers. (as a human i cant even be friendly to some of them.)

The vets here wont put an animal to sleep like that. My close friend had a corgi since she was 3 months old. At 7, the dog turned aggressive. She started biting, out of nowhere, all the time. She brought in trainers, 3 behaviourists and went to 2 different vets. Nothing worked. My friend had a baby and the biting was so bad she had no choice. She had to bring her to the ACC which puts the dog on a 72 hour DOH (dept of health) hold, then the dog is evaluated and then either released to a rescue for rehab only or put down. Because my friend had already been to behaviourists, then they were able to bypass the eval and just put her down. It was awful.

jayjoe

Sparent, we are going to do that. One of the vets mentioned that she is used to our home and people coming into our home. In that situation we had left the house and driven an hour to NJ (she is terrified in the car. i had to sit in the back and hold her in her little seatbelt thing) so she was already stressed out. Then shes in a new environment, 2 strangers crowding around her, etc. I very rarely get strong gut feelings, but i swear on my life, i just know she has the ability to trust and love someone other than us. I wish she could talk, i wish she could tell us her story. Did she accidentally get off a leash? (she wasnt chipped) Could her owner really not have been able to afford medical care and let her go? She had been spayed within the year so someone took care of her. Her appearance was that of a dog that had been stray for weeks but her weight was right on target and she didnt look "starved" at all. What was done to her to "break" her? I could write a book on the crap i've seen when it comes to this stuff and saving animals. Everything from people who have beaten their dogs to dogs that have been raped. Yes. You read that correctly. Three of them and they were puppies. I'm really hard on people, but for whatever reason, unless something truly awful has happened, i think animals deserve a second chance. Some disagree and thats totally fine, cant help how i feel, ya know?